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Does anyone know of any realistic( according to fluff) rules for playing space marines??
I am building a siege of vraks campaign using the old books, but I want to use something similar to but was hoping less crazy movie marine rules.
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
If space marines had fluff rules it would be something ridiculous. I don't really know what you mean by comparing the fluff to being less crazy.
TAC Marine
Spoiler:
Stats
WS 5, BS 5, S 5, T5, A 5, SV 3+/4++, I 7, W 2, LD 10
Equipment
Bolter - Assault 3, Str 5 AP 3 (they penetrate ceramite in the books I've read.)
Literally Any Close Combat Weapon Other Than A Knife - Str +2, AP 3
All grenade options.
Special Rules
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counterattack
IWND FNP Curse of the Machine Spirit - Any transport chosen to be a dedicated transport by a unit with this special rule will automatically be wrecked or exploded (if the weapon used is AP 2 or lower) whenever it is hit. One model must be removed as a casualty to simulate the pilot dying because the pilot always dies.
Captain
Spoiler:
WS 6, BS 6, S 5, T 5, A 7, SV 3+/4++, I 8, W 2, LD 10
Bolter
Close Combat Weapon of Important Name - S x2, AP 2, Instant Death
Special Rules
Fearless
Furious Charge
Counterattack
IWND FNP Eternal Warrior
Kill for the Living, Kill for the Dead - Any time a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule suffers a casualty due to an enemy shooting or assault phase, roll for leadership in your next shooting phase. If passed, the unit gains the twin-linked special rule until the end of your turn.
Wargear
Spoiler:
Powerfist - AP 1, Str D, Instant Death, Super Instant Death (To Wound rolls of one count as str 10), Specialist Weapon (I have never seen one of these things NOT kill something. It's usually just an issue of actually hitting the target.)
Armor of the Character (Named characters only) - Current save becomes an invuln save unless in a challenge, whereupon it will become -1 of the current save, but the model gains eternal warrior.
Plasma Anything - AP 1, Str 10, Instant Death, Twin Linked (No longer has gets hot. Seriously, I've only seen plasma shots miss like once in all the lore I've read.)
Chapter Standard - All friendly models within LOS of the model holding the standard make tests at the standard bearer's unit's leadership. If the model holding the standard dies, any character in that unit may take a leadership test. If passed, the standard is given to that model. In addition, all models within LOS of the new bearer, including its unit, gain the crusader special rule.
This is pretty much what comes to mind.
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
fullmetaljacket wrote: Does anyone know of any realistic( according to fluff) rules for playing space marines?
Speaking as someone who has made numerous attempts, this is a fool's endeavour. People are never going to agree on how strong they should be, and it's not like the lore itself is able to make up its mind about it either.
As if that is not enough, the severely limited game system has trouble accomodating any real changes without crumbling. Once you make Marines more lore-accurate, sure, what then? Dreadnoughts? Knights? Titans? Can you fit a modified Titan and a grot in GW's 1-10 stat system? Can you do it while still making it feasible to actually play a grot-heavy army against Marines on the tabletop (this is a big deal)? No, you can't.
Just accept that the game is an arcade-like exercise in rolling dice, not a storytelling platform. Use the RPGs if you want enough detail to do it properly.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/10/22 05:42:46
@marte732 @Ashiraya
So I think I should have been more clear to what exactly I was posting this for.
Using better rules for space marines isn't something I want to do for regular open gaming or competitive play . I do they they are fine for this
I am in the process of collecting all the armies from the Siege Of Vraks, and want to play through the scenario campaign in the 3 original books (ia 5-7 ) and I want to represent the marines and grey knights appropriately ( also without buying 600 dark angels)
Becuase near at the end of it all the space marines didn't lose hundreds of troops but in a huge game with a few thousand points of space marines, they would lose tons of troops,.
I just don't think I sold be able to have 1 leman Russ take out 5 space marines in one shot. Or have have 10 guardsmen overwhelm a space marine in close combat
I was thinking of making simple adjustments to make them that much better, without changing the rest of the game system like adding 1 to the there stat line, getting specisl rules like FNP, and making unit coherency 3 or even 4 inches, so yes a reaver titan will still blow them off the board but I think space marines are a little smarter not to travel s few feet away from each other when. Artillery shells are landing around them
For chaos space Marines, I think I would adjust it according to there faction. Any specialty according to there god, and making the special types even better than that ( plague marines, khorne berserkers ect,,)
I think this campaign is isolated enough that this idea can be successful and even beneficial to the campaign !
Ofcoarse ide post every barrels report , but that isn't happening till 2018 when I'm out of the corps! Lol. Then I can make my board,. And finish painting and modelling my armies
What do you think,? Any suggesting?
Thanks for responding,!
Fmj
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
Well, if we go by that logic, on points at least, a single Space Marine would cost about the same a full guard platoon. Maybe more. If we make Marine how they are in fluff, the game needs to reflect that too, and have about five Space Marines versus a "normal" 40k army.
@sgt_smudge
Yes,. That would reflect,
In the story line you see things like 5 assualt marines holding off hundreds of renegade guard, ogryns and heavy weapons
( Mainly becuase of culn )
You also see only a few alpha legion turning the tide of the war the moment they show up, repeling all the. Assualts made by the dark angels
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, if we go by that logic, on points at least, a single Space Marine would cost about the same a full guard platoon. Maybe more. If we make Marine how they are in fluff, the game needs to reflect that too, and have about five Space Marines versus a "normal" 40k army.
And the problem is that I do not think either the game mechanics or the hobby itself is able to accomodate this.
@Ashiraya
I'm not looking to change the entire game,. I'm looking. At an isolated game with isolated events,. In which ide like to have a huge battle but instead of fielding 10 tactical marines I could field 3-5 and they can do similar amount of damage and live just as long,
I'm not looking to bringing those rules into a store ACD ask someone to play against me.
Fmj
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
The problem is that the game is very granular in how units are statted - there doesn't seem to be room on the d6 scale for the range of Cultist, Guardsman, Veteran Guardsman, fluff Space Marine, and Titans.
Even if you're just doing a single isolated scenario, it still needs to be balanced, something the system struggles to do without a full rewrite.
Hell, even if you just limit it to Space Marines and Guardsmen/Lost and Damned, that's a LOT of units to rebalance to eachother.
@sgt_smudge
It's not supposed to be ballanced, its to play through a scenario with intended outcomes. Not to play to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @sgt_smudge
It's not supposed to be ballanced, its to play through a scenario with intended outcomes. Not to play to win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 14:12:37
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
I'd say, for a more "cinematic" experience without being ridiculous, give them all Strength and Toughness 5, a 4+ invulnerable save, and make bolters and chainswords S5 AP4 with Shred. Maybe multiple wounds or Feel No Pain as well, if that's not enough for you.
EDIT: Maybe up their Attacks to 4 or something, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 14:43:48
That sounds good., Ide also increase their unit coherency to up to 4 inches to increase survivability from blast weapons,
Fmj
Automatically Appended Next Post: That sounds good., Ide also increase their unit coherency to up to 4 inches to increase survivability from blast weapons,
Fmj
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 15:04:29
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
Martel732 wrote: Marines are fine. Its the fluff that is absurd.
I think there's a balance here, but the issue, as you've pointed out before, is the D6 system being so limited. Apparently the RPG stuff is more in line with how they're supposed to function.
If you really want the Movie Marine, just do an Unbound list of different Chapter Masters and various characters. This was my route for Deathwatch before they got anything.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
there does happen to be rules, the movie marines!!!
They are actually really fun to play with, what we did was a game with like 7 or 8 people, each got a single movie marine and they fought off a horde of nids.
fullmetaljacket wrote: @sgt_smudge It's not supposed to be ballanced, its to play through a scenario with intended outcomes. Not to play to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @sgt_smudge It's not supposed to be ballanced, its to play through a scenario with intended outcomes. Not to play to win.
I think if that's the case, and the outcome is biased in one way or another, why bother trying to play? There's playing a scenario (Vraks, with a multitude of which one is the canon ending, which actually allows for a game with both sides having roughly equal chances to win) or just re-enacting a battle, which is just going to guarantee one player has a bad time, as you've modified things to give them a handicap.
If you're intending the Space Marines to win, just give them 10 across all stats, EW, IWND and 2+/2++/2+++ rerollable saves, an infinite range Str D AP1 Assault 20 Bolter, and a Str D AP1 Chainsword.
It's not supposed to be balanced. /sarcasm/
I would suggest trying to balance the units, even if it meant reducing the possible units and wargear that could be taken, as in only Tactical Marines can be taken on the Marine end, and only Renegade Guardsmen, Ogryn Auxilla, etc etc can be taken by the Apostate's force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 17:01:12
Movie marines would be targeted by strategic level weapons and eliminated before a battle even started. Their home planets would be balls of slag because the enemies of the IoM would focus them down, as they are too dangerous to be allowed to live. Chapters of 5 or 10 million tabletop marines are feasible within the genre and setting. Fluff marines are not even within any kind of remotely logical story.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/22 17:37:24
Becuase near at the end of it all the space marines didn't lose hundreds of troops but in a huge game with a few thousand points of space marines, they would lose tons of troops,.
Then you choose poorly with Vraks, as the DA and Red Hunters alone lost 450+ members in the Siege.
And noone would stand so close to each other during an artillery strike, I don't see why Marines are the only ones that can figure this out.
@bobthehero
The only campaign I want to do is siege of vraks,
No one is reading the entire blog, and the reason why I even started it,.
The 450 casualties are spread out over 18 years, not one engagement,.
When it comes to artillery bombardments,. Thinking about the imperial guard. In this case the Dkok, is doctrine to travel in the right nit formations, they listen to doctrine, for most guardsmen it's their first engagement how the hell would they have enough experience to know what to do,. That's why they stick together,
Space marines do what ever the heck they want! They have the experience they have the freedom to an extent to react and use their experience to fight better
I'm tired of trying to justify why instead of what the orginal post intended, which was looking for some ideas on how to make space marines. Better for a siege of vraks campaign to do with my friend ... So if you guys want to continue arguing go right ahead, but this is stupid
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
The 450 casualties were in two engagements, 300 Dark Angels who died to take out the Space Port and 150 Red Hunters dead at the Armory Gate.
What about Veteran guardsmen then, they should be able to spread out, and the Scions, the Sisters of Battle? Why should basic infantry tactics only apply to Space Marines (incidentally, it's something YOU should be able to do IRL, you're in the Corp, after all). Hell every Kriegsmen finishes his training with a live fire exercise against those who were designed as failures, they involve artillery batrages, too. While they have their doctrine, they still figure out that not having everyone shoulder to shoulder means they get on the other side with more people to accomplish the objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In an apocalypse game you literally loose hundreds of space marines, due to the immense amount of fire power and numbers on the table ...
But then let's look at the guard ... If hundreds of marines are Dying on the table how many guardsmen are dying?! Thousands? Who owns that many models... Really? Especially. Dkok and renegade guard how many are dying before they finally kill the marine....so... Smaller battles.. means less marines on the board, but still die just as easily...I don't want that
Is that easier to see?!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/22 19:54:51
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
The only time I saw hundress of SM die in A pic was a 9 vs 9 2k points on each sides and it was Marines player Vs all. Personally I am more than fine with Marines dying by the droves, but hey. They really shouldn't be able to take a direct tank/arty round survive.
A tactical squad costs 2000 points, but upgrades each model to the chapter master stat line and the following rule:
Unimaginable power, unimaginable worth:
A space marine is a superhuman god of war, but one whose value and scarcity exceeds that of any conceivable battlefield objective. If any model with this rule is removed as a casualty the owning player can not score better than a draw for the game result.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
No space marine player ever fields hundreds of space marines in a regular game. Most armies will barely field more than 30 and of those more than half of them survive in most battles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fullmetaljacket wrote: @sgt_smudge
Yes,. That would reflect,
In the story line you see things like 5 assualt marines holding off hundreds of renegade guard, ogryns and heavy weapons
( Mainly becuase of culn )
You also see only a few alpha legion turning the tide of the war the moment they show up, repeling all the. Assualts made by the dark angels
If you want this just go all out hero hammer. Field an unbound list with only HQ's call them "regular sm's" and you are done. No rule changes needed really.
to respond to a few of the previous comments
no i dont want hero hammer
i own multiple armies surrounding vraks including a dkok army that has about 15000 points and a renegade guard army at about 10000 points , csm and daemons at about 10000 and space marines / inquisition/ and grey knights at about 5000 total
its going to be a big battle
all i want is to improve the the space marines to match the fluff and i was looking for some brain storming suggestions .
increasing max unit coherency to 3 or 4 inches was one idea, and i actually like the custodians idea ( with the exception they would not all have their super awesome weapons, they would hve bolters
another idea was making bolters assault 2 and giving them fnp
these are super simple changes ... that would reflect to bolters and power armour all around
I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN,, IM NOT USING THIS TO PLAY IN A STORE OR RANDOM A RANDOM PLAYER.
the game will be one sided, the game will be biased, thats the way these scenario games work the outcome is known, you play them to reenact the story... its not competitive.
if a different outcome happens they so be it , but all i want is to make space marines a little better to match the story and make it so a leman russ doesn't blow away half a squad of space marines
fmj
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.
Whilst I may tend to go on the upper bound of Space Marine strength, like surviving tank rounds and holing off swarms of enemies (if holding a decent position), I do agree with Bob that it shouldn't just be Space Marines that can move out to larger coherency. Scions, Tau Battlesuits, Imperial Guard Veterans, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Harlequins - why would these units stay huddled up, if not for game mechanics?
You're after herohammer - you seem to want the fluff, which is a handful of very powerful Space Marines versus lots of less powerful mooks. However, just spreading out coherency won't do that. If you want the least amount of changes, take 10 Chapter Masters and go in with that.
If you want to do it right, you'll have to adjust points. That's not to play against random people, that's simply to make sure that it's actually somewhat fair. Leaving a Space Marine's bolter only able to kill 2 enemies a turn it a bad move, as they simply won't be able to kill enough. You need to buff a bolter so that it can put out more shots and damage more enemies. You need to increase a Marine's attacks so that it can fight it's way out of melee properly, or just give Hit and Run. Truth is, your changes are just too little to represent Marines properly. Coherency spreading won't save them from the biggest killer - weight of fire. If you go with the fluffy small amount of Space Marines, a two shot bolter won't be enough to hold back the enemy. FNP only makes the Space Marines a third more durable, and not against the battle cannons you seem so terrified of (I think - does Instant Death still cause FNP to fail?)
Custodes rules are probably the best you could get out there - just add more possible attacks to their bolter, and leave that.
Who exactly are you hoping on playing against? How many points is the renegade force going to be?
The thing is, as much as you're saying "it's not competitive, it biased" - that's not how scenario games work. Look at how FW do their scenarios for their campaigns. We all know who wins Kastorel Novem - the Orks. Do we see the orks with massive bonuses because that's what happens canonically? No! They make it a somewhat balanced game, because that's FAIR. If you just want to have the Space Marines automatically win, just count each one as a Titan and just watch as whoever plays the Renegades just lose hope as they watch a game stacked against them fall to pieces.
You're not making a scenario - you're repeating an event. A scenario would allow for multiple outcomes, which you clearly don't want.
Marines in the fluff would still struggle to hold off a massive renegade army - that's why it's interesting, because it's not a forgone Marine win - they need to use every ounce of their skill and luck to hold back the massive army. It's a challenge for them, just as much as it is for the Renegades.
TL;DR Even if it's casual, it still should be balanced, or it just won't be fun.
Fluff Marine - All succesful to hit rolls against a Fluff marine require to be rerolled unless fired by another model with the Fluff Marine rule. Fluff marines engage single models at a time (rather than units), if they win a close combat can immediately consolidate up to 6 inches and fight another round of combat until they run out of opponents. Fluff marines can keep firing basic and special weapons until they miss a shot.
fullmetaljacket wrote: and make it so a leman russ doesn't blow away half a squad of space marines
Given your statements about "the winner is already determined, I just want to follow the script" why pretend that the rules matter? If a LRBT shot violates your intended outcome of "no killing half a squad" just rule that it doesn't happen and don't remove any models as casualties. Or make a special rule that marines are immune to battle cannons, if you feel compelled to make an explicit rule for it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
@sgt_smudge
For the unit coherency... None of those other armies were on vraks,
The unit coherency would apply to space marine ( and by default certain Csm) on my siege of vraks campaign that will not include scions, eldar Dark eldar, ect. Yes I agree they should get that rule
But in short , the renegade are majority made up of mutant and a militia army and the Dkok rely on their tight formations for control and unleashing high volumes of volley fire
I'm not scared of battle cannons blowing a space marine off the board, I just don't want any template weapon , to blow half squad off the board, one or. Two okay, that is what the unit coherency is for
For fighting off the waves of attackers , that's what the FNP would be for. To represent the marines continuing to fight shaking off wounds
I don't want to the game to be super one sided, us that is boring, but it is biased in the fact that if you look at the scenario games in the vraks books they set people up to fail, they have a predetermined outcome. Don't tell me people won't have fun , I don't care about other people. Me and my friend want to play a campaign, this is what we want..
This is not so I can walk all over the board and dominate people with a ton of marines, this is so when I play my death korps of krieg army,. ( Never ending waves of infantry) vs
Renegade guard around 300 models of infantry ( never ending / outflanking waves of infantry) I can field 15-20 red scorpions,
Dark angels or a squad of grey knights and. Have them live for 6-10 turns, And not have all of them blown away by one shot from artillery, tanks or anything like that ACD the same goes for when my openent puts a squad of alpha legion in the field
The rules do matter or while else would we want to play!? Same reason. People play Napoleonic and play the the battle of water loo, or civil war and play the battle of Gettysburg.
Fmj
All the Emperor requires of us guardsmen is that we hold the line,and die fighting. Its what we do best. We die standing.