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Yeah man I'm actually a big Tau fan boy, they were the first models I ever saw.

Back to the topic at hand General, I think it could be done if it was a more free chapter who did what they wanted, and were somehow wronged by the Imperium, but still love humanity. Like more extreme Space Wolves. I also like the idea of the Tau creating their own form of Marines or making marine like exoskeletons

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
(directed at Gamgee)...Did they, though? They seemed to come to the conclusion that enough Imperium forces could obliterate the Tau Empire (which is absolutely true, based entirely on scale), but that the Imperium's desperate position on a galactic scale means they won't ever realistically have enough free manpower to actually carry that out.

Ah well, we Space Marine "fanboys" apparently are far too biased to make that judgement next to someone who's made a fantasy faction their own real life affiliation.

I'm also an IG and Ork fanatic at heart Blood Ravens are coming along though, slowly but surely. Also own a Tau army now like I've wanted to for quite some time (who knew!)

I think ultimately that Space Marines are going to be a tougher nut to crack, when it comes to swaying a faction to the Tau Empire's cause. Though Space Marines are one of the few forces the Tau almost universally respect on a strategic and tactical level, the effort it would require to actually get them as allies is almost insurmountably high - more than the Tau Empire could afford.

A far better option would be for the Tau to capture/harvest the geneseed of dead marines, "extract" the information of how to implant them into humans from captures servants of the Space Marines, and build their own "Chapter-Cadres" with their own Hypnoindoctrination in place of the Imperium's.

Alternatively, a sufficiently desperate Tau Empire (or a faction thereof) might "encourage" Space Marine levels of biological capability through controlled feeding of various alien DNAs. That will probably be my approach, in the uncertain future when I finally get off my ass and finish my conversions, for a Tau Empire army using Space Marine/30k rules (Primarchs being replaced by exceptional examples from the breeding/feeding program).

Sounds like a far fetched plan, with a lot of difficulties to overcome. Things like the facilities and tech needed to perform all 13 Astartes implants, construction of Power Armour (or armour similar to that) and the indoctrination on a level far exceeding even the Tau's rigid form of lifestyle.

Is it possible? Not many things are impossible in 40k, and it is certainly not impossible, though I think what they'd end up creating would be a long shot from what a regular Space Marine is, and perhaps might even bring up moral quarrels with the Ethereals about such a power not truly being Tau in the flesh, or in the mind.

Would be.. interesting... to see nonetheless

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Yeah man I'm actually a big Tau fan boy, they were the first models I ever saw.

Back to the topic at hand General, I think it could be done if it was a more free chapter who did what they wanted, and were somehow wronged by the Imperium, but still love humanity. Like more extreme Space Wolves. I also like the idea of the Tau creating their own form of Marines or making marine like exoskeletons

I could see that in quite a few Chapters really - some of which are still in the arms of the Imperium; Chapter's who tend to cross over the white lines from time to time. Alliances would certainly be possible and probable, but integration? That's a whole new kettle of fish when it comes to Marines.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
(directed at Gamgee)...Did they, though? They seemed to come to the conclusion that enough Imperium forces could obliterate the Tau Empire (which is absolutely true, based entirely on scale), but that the Imperium's desperate position on a galactic scale means they won't ever realistically have enough free manpower to actually carry that out.

Ah well, we Space Marine "fanboys" apparently are far too biased to make that judgement next to someone who's made a fantasy faction their own real life affiliation.

I'm also an IG and Ork fanatic at heart Blood Ravens are coming along though, slowly but surely. Also own a Tau army now like I've wanted to for quite some time (who knew!)

I think ultimately that Space Marines are going to be a tougher nut to crack, when it comes to swaying a faction to the Tau Empire's cause. Though Space Marines are one of the few forces the Tau almost universally respect on a strategic and tactical level, the effort it would require to actually get them as allies is almost insurmountably high - more than the Tau Empire could afford.

A far better option would be for the Tau to capture/harvest the geneseed of dead marines, "extract" the information of how to implant them into humans from captures servants of the Space Marines, and build their own "Chapter-Cadres" with their own Hypnoindoctrination in place of the Imperium's.

Alternatively, a sufficiently desperate Tau Empire (or a faction thereof) might "encourage" Space Marine levels of biological capability through controlled feeding of various alien DNAs. That will probably be my approach, in the uncertain future when I finally get off my ass and finish my conversions, for a Tau Empire army using Space Marine/30k rules (Primarchs being replaced by exceptional examples from the breeding/feeding program).

Sounds like a far fetched plan, with a lot of difficulties to overcome. Things like the facilities and tech needed to perform all 13 Astartes implants, construction of Power Armour (or armour similar to that) and the indoctrination on a level far exceeding even the Tau's rigid form of lifestyle.

Is it possible? Not many things are impossible in 40k, and it is certainly not impossible, though I think what they'd end up creating would be a long shot from what a regular Space Marine is, and perhaps might even bring up moral quarrels with the Ethereals about such a power not truly being Tau in the flesh, or in the mind.

Would be.. interesting... to see nonetheless

Not to mention the Tau would have to grasp the concept of altering the human body, something that is much different than their own body, so I don't see them making their own "Space Marines"

I'd imagine initial attempts would be fraught with failure rates beyond even those experienced by current Space Marines... but the explicit capabilities of the Tau to adapt and learn, rather than being stuck in the stagnancy that defines Imperium technology and bio-tech processes. I may be wrong, but the Horus Heresy books seem to paint a much more reliable process than that experienced by 40k Space Marines in terms of success rates for implantation.

The Tau have a lot they'd need to learn before they could match Space Marine biotech on their own, but they aren't on their own - they'd merely need to reverse-engineer it, and that's kind of their jam, thematically.

Regarding the Power Armor, they would probably adapt XV-1 and -2 battlesuit technology for that purpose, rather than reverse-engineer and duplicate Imperium Power Armor technologies.

But it would certainly be a while - decades at least, probably closer to a century) before true physical and mental equals of Space Marines were produced through either method (captured Gene-seed versus Force-fed Kroot).

Not to mention the Tau would have to grasp the concept of altering the human body, something that is much different than their own body, so I don't see them making their own "Space Marines"

It might take a little while, but I think you underestimate the Earth Caste's curiosity and ingenuity. It didn't take the Earth Caste long at all for them to develop their Communication Helms with the Vespids, and if the rumors are true, that includes elements of mind-control over a species that is vastly more different to the Tau than the Tau differ from humans.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I'd imagine initial attempts would be fraught with failure rates beyond even those experienced by current Space Marines... but the explicit capabilities of the Tau to adapt and learn, rather than being stuck in the stagnancy that defines Imperium technology and bio-tech processes. I may be wrong, but the Horus Heresy books seem to paint a much more reliable process than that experienced by 40k Space Marines in terms of success rates for implantation.

The Tau have a lot they'd need to learn before they could match Space Marine biotech on their own, but they aren't on their own - they'd merely need to reverse-engineer it, and that's kind of their jam, thematically.

Regarding the Power Armor, they would probably adapt XV-1 and -2 battlesuit technology for that purpose, rather than reverse-engineer and duplicate Imperium Power Armor technologies.

But it would certainly be a while - decades at least, probably closer to a century) before true physical and mental equals of Space Marines were produced through either method (captured Gene-seed versus Force-fed Kroot).

What about Gue'Vesa exoskeletons like in this fanmade fluff

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Hammerhead-Down-40K-315545763

It's a nifty thought, but on the surface seems to be closer to what an allied Adeptus Mechanicus would create in conjunction with the Earth Caste, rather than something the Earth Caste would develop on their own (aesthetically, at least).

I'd imagine that would be most appropriate for a renegade-joined-to-the-Tau-Empire side of Tau Space Marines, rather than the "Made-from-the-ground-up Tau Space Marines I'd envisioned.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I'd imagine initial attempts would be fraught with failure rates beyond even those experienced by current Space Marines... but the explicit capabilities of the Tau to adapt and learn, rather than being stuck in the stagnancy that defines Imperium technology and bio-tech processes. I may be wrong, but the Horus Heresy books seem to paint a much more reliable process than that experienced by 40k Space Marines in terms of success rates for implantation.

The Tau have a lot they'd need to learn before they could match Space Marine biotech on their own, but they aren't on their own - they'd merely need to reverse-engineer it, and that's kind of their jam, thematically.

Regarding the Power Armor, they would probably adapt XV-1 and -2 battlesuit technology for that purpose, rather than reverse-engineer and duplicate Imperium Power Armor technologies.

But it would certainly be a while - decades at least, probably closer to a century) before true physical and mental equals of Space Marines were produced through either method (captured Gene-seed versus Force-fed Kroot).

Not to mention the Tau would have to grasp the concept of altering the human body, something that is much different than their own body, so I don't see them making their own "Space Marines"

It might take a little while, but I think you underestimate the Earth Caste's curiosity and ingenuity. It didn't take the Earth Caste long at all for them to develop their Communication Helms with the Vespids, and if the rumors are true, that includes elements of mind-control over a species that is vastly more different to the Tau than the Tau differ from humans.

That certainly sounds like a reasonable thesis as to what might happen were the Tau to get their hands on all the technology needed.

My only real objection to this idea is the pride and honour amongst the Tau, and the Fire Caste in particular. Making these warriors would almost be accepting that their own bred Fire Warriors are inferior, in a sense. Sure, the Tau respect the Space Marines, but enough to try and copy them? They've done well enough so far following their own paths of warfare and technology, and some of their Commanders can/may have been able to do circles around a Space Marine Captain in some areas. Would seem almost like a dishonour to the race for them to try and mimic another who they mostly believe to be under them.

But I guess as time has worn on, you see the Empire getting more and more desperate. The Ta'unar Supremacy Suit is one such Tau invention in recent times that goes against their whole code of Mont'ka and Kauyon - mobile warfare - for the sake of knowing their foe that approaches from the void beyond. Perhaps in this new age of development, such a project may be attempted, though what that would make the Tau afterwards would remain to be seen.

Certainly fascinating - I reckon Tau have some of the most diverse opportunities in the future for GW out of all the 40k factions, suiting for their nature. There may be hope for this thread yet...

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
I'd imagine initial attempts would be fraught with failure rates beyond even those experienced by current Space Marines... but the explicit capabilities of the Tau to adapt and learn, rather than being stuck in the stagnancy that defines Imperium technology and bio-tech processes. I may be wrong, but the Horus Heresy books seem to paint a much more reliable process than that experienced by 40k Space Marines in terms of success rates for implantation.

The Tau have a lot they'd need to learn before they could match Space Marine biotech on their own, but they aren't on their own - they'd merely need to reverse-engineer it, and that's kind of their jam, thematically.

Regarding the Power Armor, they would probably adapt XV-1 and -2 battlesuit technology for that purpose, rather than reverse-engineer and duplicate Imperium Power Armor technologies.

But it would certainly be a while - decades at least, probably closer to a century) before true physical and mental equals of Space Marines were produced through either method (captured Gene-seed versus Force-fed Kroot).

Not to mention the Tau would have to grasp the concept of altering the human body, something that is much different than their own body, so I don't see them making their own "Space Marines"

It might take a little while, but I think you underestimate the Earth Caste's curiosity and ingenuity. It didn't take the Earth Caste long at all for them to develop their Communication Helms with the Vespids, and if the rumors are true, that includes elements of mind-control over a species that is vastly more different to the Tau than the Tau differ from humans.

That certainly sounds like a reasonable thesis as to what might happen were the Tau to get their hands on all the technology needed.

My only real objection to this idea is the pride and honour amongst the Tau, and the Fire Caste in particular. Making these warriors would almost be accepting that their own bred Fire Warriors are inferior, in a sense. Sure, the Tau respect the Space Marines, but enough to try and copy them? They've done well enough so far following their own paths of warfare and technology, and some of their Commanders can/may have been able to do circles around a Space Marine Captain in some areas. Would seem almost like a dishonour to the race for them to try and mimic another who they mostly believe to be under them.

But I guess as time has worn on, you see the Empire getting more and more desperate. The Ta'unar Supremacy Suit is one such Tau invention in recent times that goes against their whole code of Mont'ka and Kauyon - mobile warfare - for the sake of knowing their foe that approaches from the void beyond. Perhaps in this new age of development, such a project may be attempted, though what that would make the Tau afterwards would remain to be seen.

Certainly fascinating - I reckon Tau have some of the most diverse opportunities in the future for GW out of all the 40k factions, suiting for their nature. There may be hope for this thread yet...

G.A

Definetly, I thin it's what makes Tau one of the most interesting factions in 40k. They don't just want every other race dead, and are very willing to adapt to the situation at hand and not stick to stagnant tactics

 TheLumberJack wrote:

Definetly, I thin it's what makes Tau one of the most interesting factions in 40k. They don't just want every other race dead, and are very willing to adapt to the situation at hand and not stick to stagnant tactics

Very much so

Wow, look what reasonable discussion can bring! This is what I was after

Excellent points in the Tau's sense of honor and pride - the Fire Caste's role grows more and more narrow as more and more other species fill in... gaps... in the Tau's war capabilities.

I would not expect all flavors of Space Marines to be worth manufacturing for the Tau, given their effective redundancy with the Fire Caste (and where the Fire Caste can fill a role, I don't see the Ethereals jumping at the chance to replace them).

However, the Tau have no compunctions against filling in those gaps with other species, as is amply demonstrated by the use of Vespids and Kroot, and so I'd expect to see Space Marines worth developing only for specialized roles, especially given the research and development costs (let alone the costs of producing Space Marine level super-soldiers).

Space Marines, physically, are on an entirely different level, and act as a concentration of offensive force that can overwhelm local forces, much like the tip of an arrow can piece armor that similar force behind a hammer blow could not. Battlesuits can partially perform this role (and have in the past, i.e. the XV-4 series that the Tau use for Space Hulk exploration), but Space Marine physicals with Battlesuit-tech defense and offense systems would be a concentrated force like no other.

I'd imagine the biggest use for Tau-developed Space Marines would be in Void combat, where narrow corridors, close-range firepower, and the greater efficacy of hand-to-hand combat leave the Tau scrambling to find solutions (Breachers being the most recent development in that case, but still left at a disadvantage due to the physical attributes where they're inferior to humans, i.e. their close-range visual focusing).

In a related note, I'd expect Space Marines could be used for similarly short-ranged engagements like city-fighting, for similar reasons.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Excellent points in the Tau's sense of honor and pride - the Fire Caste's role grows more and more narrow as more and more other species fill in... gaps... in the Tau's war capabilities.

I would not expect all flavors of Space Marines to be worth manufacturing for the Tau, given their effective redundancy with the Fire Caste (and where the Fire Caste can fill a role, I don't see the Ethereals jumping at the chance to replace them).

However, the Tau have no compunctions against filling in those gaps with other species, as is amply demonstrated by the use of Vespids and Kroot, and so I'd expect to see Space Marines worth developing only for specialized roles, especially given the research and development costs (let alone the costs of producing Space Marine level super-soldiers).

Space Marines, physically, are on an entirely different level, and act as a concentration of offensive force that can overwhelm local forces, much like the tip of an arrow can piece armor that similar force behind a hammer blow could not. Battlesuits can partially perform this role (and have in the past, i.e. the XV-4 series that the Tau use for Space Hulk exploration), but Space Marine physicals with Battlesuit-tech defense and offense systems would be a concentrated force like no other.

I'd imagine the biggest use for Tau-developed Space Marines would be in Void combat, where narrow corridors, close-range firepower, and the greater efficacy of hand-to-hand combat leave the Tau scrambling to find solutions (Breachers being the most recent development in that case, but still left at a disadvantage due to the physical attributes where they're inferior to humans, i.e. their close-range visual focusing).

In a related note, I'd expect Space Marines could be used for similarly short-ranged engagements like city-fighting, for similar reasons.

I can see Tau using Marines, either created or defected, as something along those lines. Tight quarters fighting or for super heavy assaults that even Tau cannot manage with their physical stature and attributes

All well worded points... er, Suspect? Unusual? Unusual Suspect?

Your mention of the Kroot (and your avatar) made me think of a potentially much simpler solution. The Kroot can enhance themselves with the genetic material of whatever they consume, right? Why not subject the greatest Shapers of the Kroot Empire to some of the best Space Marines the Tau can kill for them, so that they can rework their DNA into the generations to come? Wouldn't take half as long as a DIY Space Marine project, and all the Earth Caste would have to do is manufacture better armour for the Kroot.

That could work just as well, amiright? Would cause less outrage amongst people hearing "Tau Space Marines" for the first time

That could work. Or what about an entire force of super tough drones, a la necrons

 General Annoyance wrote:
All well worded points... er, Suspect? Unusual? Unusual Suspect?

Your mention of the Kroot (and your avatar) made me think of a potentially much simpler solution. The Kroot can enhance themselves with the genetic material of whatever they consume, right? Why not subject the greatest Shapers of the Kroot Empire to some of the best Space Marines the Tau can kill for them, so that they can rework their DNA into the generations to come? Wouldn't take half as long as a DIY Space Marine project, and all the Earth Caste would have to do is manufacture better armour for the Kroot.

That could work just as well, amiright? Would cause less outrage amongst people hearing "Tau Space Marines" for the first time

What an excellent idea! One that I mentioned a half-dozen posts before (though I now realize I forgot to explicitly call out the Kroot, so I editted them in later - you might have missed it).

I have imagined quite a few Kroot-specific Eugenics programs the Tau might use, and in my personal head-cannon, that's actually why you've never heard of Human settlements under the Tau getting consumed by demons - all the warp-capable humans are found (through technological scanning, after intensive research into the Gue'la "Mind Science" that gave the Tau such a hard time in their previous conflicts), shipped off to Kroot research centers, and "disposed of" after experimentation by feeding them to Kroot.

Could you imagine a subrace of Kroot with racial psychic capabilities that rivaled the humans and eldar?

I could absolutely see that diet being replaced or enhanced through the addition of cloned Ork, Eldar, and similarly sentient species' meats - Better, faster, smarter, stronger!

While it would be the easier method by far (cloning is probably a few tiers down in difficult when compared to replicating Space Marine creation), the Kroot have their own cultural limitations - their disinterest in heavier armors and weapon systems relegates them, in my mind, to particular roles. My current plans are to create a plays-as Space Wolves force using Kroot, as that best fits their more barbaric, shamanistic cultural heritage.

Also... why not both?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
That could work. Or what about an entire force of super tough drones, a la necrons

Necron-level tech drones are another, non-exclusive path forward for the Tau, but actually matching Necron-tech is probably thousands of years away for the Tau (their technological base is reasonably high, but their best technology is still well below almost every other faction's best).

Well we have 3 potentially viable paths the Tau may choose to go down, if not all three. I think that's a satisfying conclusion

Perhaps with these the Tau may stand a chance if the Imperium is to return to the Eastern Fringe en mass Come on GW, just advance the story just a tiny bit!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


Could you imagine a subrace of Kroot with racial psychic capabilities that rivaled the humans and eldar?

I believe the Silver Skulls encountered a group of Kroot just like that - found it out on Lexicanum, if you want to go have a look I'll copy it here anyway:

"The Silver Skulls of the Adeptus Astartes encountered Kroot that had assimilated DNA from the Eldar and gained powerful psychic powers, which allowed them to cover themselves in an illusionary disguise that hid their true nature, appearing instead as dark, midnight-blue creatures with smooth skin, long sinewy limbs, clawed fingers, and large amethyst-purple eyes set in a comparatively small, elongated face that came to a triangular point with two nostril slits at the end, no visible ears, and a mouth full of a double set of razor-sharp teeth. Their psychic disguise was only ruptured when their cerebral connection was broken, such as when their head was severed, after which they would revert back to their true Kroot form.[5]
They also displayed the ability to generate multiple psychic illusions of themselves in battle, which appeared to their enemies as completely corporeal and capable of causing harm. However the illusions were extremely vulnerable to psychic attacks and would dispel back into thin air when hit by one.[5]
The Silver Skulls recognised that Kroot with psychic potential posed a grave threat to the Imperium and recommended the planet where they were encountered on be cleansed"

Congrats on having civil discussion people!

 TheLumberJack wrote:
Congrats on having civil discussion people!

Now I can sleep feeling good about myself

 General Annoyance wrote:
Well we have 3 potentially viable paths the Tau may choose to go down, if not all three. I think that's a satisfying conclusion

Perhaps with these the Tau may stand a chance if the Imperium is to return to the Eastern Fringe en mass Come on GW, just advance the story just a tiny bit!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


Could you imagine a subrace of Kroot with racial psychic capabilities that rivaled the humans and eldar?

I believe the Silver Skulls encountered a group of Kroot just like that - found it out on Lexicanum, if you want to go have a look I'll copy it here anyway:

"The Silver Skulls of the Adeptus Astartes encountered Kroot that had assimilated DNA from the Eldar and gained powerful psychic powers, which allowed them to cover themselves in an illusionary disguise that hid their true nature, appearing instead as dark, midnight-blue creatures with smooth skin, long sinewy limbs, clawed fingers, and large amethyst-purple eyes set in a comparatively small, elongated face that came to a triangular point with two nostril slits at the end, no visible ears, and a mouth full of a double set of razor-sharp teeth. Their psychic disguise was only ruptured when their cerebral connection was broken, such as when their head was severed, after which they would revert back to their true Kroot form.[5]
They also displayed the ability to generate multiple psychic illusions of themselves in battle, which appeared to their enemies as completely corporeal and capable of causing harm. However the illusions were extremely vulnerable to psychic attacks and would dispel back into thin air when hit by one.[5]
The Silver Skulls recognised that Kroot with psychic potential posed a grave threat to the Imperium and recommended the planet where they were encountered on be cleansed"

Oh my, that's lovely, that is...

Also, yay civil discussion!

I'm honestly shocked. But positively so.

Are there any examples of Bio-tech in the Tau Empire - I got the impression its nto what they do?

Perhaps this may be at the behst of the Etherials?

If I'm not mistaken in 'Legends of the Dark Millennium-Farsight' they mention technology used to regrow limbs and such in favour of prosthetic limbs.

I don't know if its forbidden as much as not something they've had significant success in. But I don't really know *shrugs*

 Anemone wrote:
If I'm not mistaken in 'Legends of the Dark Millennium-Farsight' they mention technology used to regrow limbs and such in favour of prosthetic limbs.

I don't know if its forbidden as much as not something they've had significant success in. But I don't really know *shrugs*

Yes good point, medical science seems to be very good, but bio enhancement seems not to be being used? Now whether thats a conscious choice or just not having the spare resoures / will to do so I don't know

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are there any examples of Bio-tech in the Tau Empire - I got the impression its nto what they do?

Perhaps this may be at the behst of the Etherials?

The Farsight Enclave managed to manufacture a sufficiently virulent virus that was capable of taking out a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

O'vesa, the Earth Caste Riptide pilot who is a member of Farsight's Eight, uses nanomachines of his own design that are implied to be the basis for his exceptional lifespan.

Anemone mentioned the cloned limbs as replacements.

And as I mentioned earlier, IF the rumors of the Vespid Communication helms are correct, the Tau have mind-controlling/-influencing technology.


I'd imagine, as discussed earlier, that the pride and honor of the Tau might lead to them frowning, at a minimum, on direct genetic manipulation of Tau DNA... but I'd be surprised if they had any compunctions against doing so on their vassal species.

With Anemone's mentioned cloning technology alone, the Super-Kroot method would be quite viable. Combine that with the sort of control that nanomachinery can provide, supplemented with their (hinted) capability at manipulating non-Tau species... well, even the reverse-engineered Space Marines seem possible.

Edit: to make it clear why the cloning technology implies viable bio-enhancement capabilities, consider what routine cloned limb technology implies: Tau are able to grow replacement limbs quickly and without rejection of the new limbs, suggesting they can target their cloned flesh to individual Tau.

Combine that with their implied capability to manipulate non-Tau species, and you have the Tau's ability to grow and implant organs/limbs/whatever at whim into any species they've had enough time to study biologically.

I would love to see more of the Kroot, of all the member races really.

As much as I love the Tau, and I do enjoy their uniqueness within the setting and feel they attract far to much irrational hatred and flak, I would love to see more of the member races as units.

More Kroot, like the psychic ones mentioned, Demiurg Mining Vehicles (look how dangerous the Rockgrinder is), Hrenian Light Infantry, Nicassar Psykers there's a lot of chances for some fun and creative stuff there which breaks the 'Battlesuit' mould of late.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Oh my, that's lovely, that is...

Also, yay civil discussion!

And yes, a civil and fruitful discussion on Dakka. It's a Christmas Miracle! Give yourself a pat on the back

 Anemone wrote:
I would love to see more of the Kroot, of all the member races really.

As much as I love the Tau, and I do enjoy their uniqueness within the setting and feel they attract far to much irrational hatred and flak, I would love to see more of the member races as units.

More Kroot, like the psychic ones mentioned, Demiurg Mining Vehicles (look how dangerous the Rockgrinder is), Hrenian Light Infantry, Nicassar Psykers there's a lot of chances for some fun and creative stuff there which breaks the 'Battlesuit' mould of late.

I feel this is where Tau are lacking right now - for a faction that is supposed to be using all kinds of alien auxilliaries, they don't really have many. It'd be great to see more, I just hope for the people who still play 40k that GW is a little more careful and restrained when they write rules for any new units.

As for the biotechnology, I've always felt like the Tau were signified for using technology externally to make up for their lacking physique, with Battlesuits and the like. However, it'd be interesting to see what they could do in the bioscience field, provided they don't go overboard - that's the Imperium's spiel

Thanks for the info re bio / nano tech

Really hope they bring out more Auxilaries for the Tau - makes sense - new models - new sales.

Certainly better than the cosntant churning out (IMO) increasingly silly looking Battlesuits - hoping for some more aircraft / vehicles.

 Gamgee wrote:
Except the IoM got its ass kicked at the end of Mont'ka only the Ad Mech stopped a sweeping advance through the entire gulf with the lighting the gulf on fire.

The largest modern crusade sent to take us down and it lost. We also destroyed a Tyranid hive fleet with a super virus in FSE book. At this rate the Tau just need faster FTL drives and more manpower.

Every time the IoM launches a crusade it underestimates how fast the Tau are advancing. Each crusade is bigger and bigger and failing faster and taking less ground before ceding and retreating. The Tau are exponentially increasing in numbers and resources and the IoM are not able to match that unless they started drawing from about 10+ sectors of space and mobilizing 90% of that to take down the Tau, Which they can't do since they don't have the manpower.

As of the end of Mont'ka the IoM's Damocles Gulf is nearly drained of forces to fight the Tau and forced to go on the defensive from one planet. When the Tau get their new FTL they'll sweep the region. Even letting the Tau have a single new planet means having to fight exponentially more of them. The Tau gaining a few planets would be the equivalent of the IoM gaining fifty thousand.

You mean that a single Imperial army was fought to a stalemate. It was far from being the largest crusade ever. It was only a dozen capital ships, 19 regiments and 5 provisional Space Marine companies. A significant force, but hardly a large one by Imperial standards (compare it to the forces participating in the Third Armageddon War or the containment of Hive Fleet Leviathan for example).
The Damocles Gulf region is an insignificant backwater region on the Eastern Fringe. Losing it would mean nothing to the Imperium. Had not an outraged cardinal noticed the xenos encroachment and called a Crusade, it is likely no one in the Imperium would have really noticed or cared. The fact that the Tau are having so much trouble taking minor frontier regions from the Imperium says more than enough. And the Tau victory in the Damocles Gulf was became even more meaningless when the Imperium killed the Tau's supreme leader and then just declared Exterminatus on Agrellan, rendering the Tau victory a phyrric one at best.

And it yet remains to be seen whether the Tau will be able to develop FTL travel, considering their lack of understanding of the Warp. And when they do get FTL travel, it is highly likely they will overextend themselves, leaving them an even easier target for Orks/Imperium/Tyranids/Dark Eldar/Necrons.

And as for the Tyranids, the Tau already had extreme difficulties dealing with what was only a splinter fleet of a single probing tendril, even despite having support from the Imperium. Super viruses only work once, the Tyranids will simply adapt to defeat it. Every victory against the Tyranids is a phyrric victory, for it allows the Tyranids to adapt to the victor's weapons and strategies, making them useless next time. When after defeating Gorgon, the Tau faced a tendril of Kraken, they could only defeat it with "help" from the Dark Eldar. When a major Tyranid Hive Fleet shows up, let alone the main Tyranid force that still is in intergalactic transit, the Tau won't have a chance.

So far, the Tau have yet to win any really significant victories, their expansion has slowed down, they have angered the Imperium and they remain small, vulnerable and largely ignorant to all the surrounding threats that are closing in on them. The future of the Tau is looking rather bleak and desperate, as is fitting for 40k.

 Anemone wrote:
Can we please prevent this from veering off into another discussion about how 'amazing' and 'utopian' a place the Imperium is and everything bad within it is a localized minority which doesn't reflect anything about the Imperium as a whole? I'm already sick to my stomach of the sweeping glorification of genocide, rape, slavery, lobotomy, murder and child murder which exists within the online fanbase of this game.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter the fact remains that the humans defect from the Imperium because they either a) find the regime to despotic or b) believe it to be worth it for the economic factors. Those are the in-universe provided reasons for those defections. Arguing that 'its the Governors fault' doesn't change either of those faults since those Governors are the representation of the Imperium system on those worlds.

The Imperium is actually alright in some areas, but peaceful planets are boring overall so the story ignores them.
Also the Governors are generally in complete control of their planets in practice due to their planets having to have at least some self reliance in order to be functional throughout the imperial red tape. They all answer to the administratum, however they are free to set up how their planet is run themselves as long as it's not heretical. The planets not being standardised is another issue that's slowing the entire system down.

In short the planetary government is in charge of the planet while the administratum handles interplanetary matters. But what that really means is the living conditions in the Imperium will vary quite a bunch from world to world; so it's not standard enough to say if it would be better or worse than being with the Tau. What the Tau have going for them is they are a lot smaller and thus are able to centralise their government a lot easier and have a level of standardisation for living conditions on the worlds they control. So they have consistency over the Imperium.

On the topic of bio tech. What is more likely course for the Tau to take, using it on their own species or on another species?

On their own, most likely - they may be very accepting and caring for other races, but they still see themselves as being the best. Advancements in bioscience would only strengthen that