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Hey guys, I'm curious as to what counters you'd bring against the lists I have below. I've come up with missions for each, and you may use any army, but please no unbound. I want to see how different people think when facing this army. Please tell me your overall strategy, what units you brought to counter what and why. They contain armor, speed, and high movement. You see the lists are mostly the same minus 1-2 changes, but they are significant.

List 1, Misson: Emperor's Will
SW, Company of the great Wolf. 2,000 pts.

HQ
Iron Priest: Mount, Tempest Hammer, Frost Pistol
Wolf Lord: Mount, TH/SS, Runic Armor, Felclaw necklace
Bjorn The Fell-Handed

Elite
Ven. Dreadnought: Shield, Axe, SL, EA
Ven. Dreadnought: Shield, Axe, SL, EA
Murderfang, Riding in Lucious Pattern drop pod

Fast Attack
x6 Thunderwolves, all shields and bolt pistols

Lord of War
Logan, on Stormrider



List 2, Mission:The Relic

Company of the Great Wolf, 2,000 pts

HQ
Iron Priest: mount, 1 cyberwolf
WL: Mount, Runic armor, TH/SS, Felclaw necklace

[/b]Elite
Ven. Dreadnought: Shield, Axe,
Ven. Dreadnought: Shield, Axe,
Murderfang, Riding in Lucious Pattern drop pod

Fast Attack
x6 Thunderwolves with SS, Bolt pistols

Formations[b]
Wulfen Murderpack: 2 units of 5 Wulfen each carrying: PL, Frost claws, 2x Frost claws, 2x TH/SS 3 stormfrag auto launchers in each
Wyrdstorm Brotherhood: 3 Rune priests- All on bikes, Rune Axes, ML 2, 1 carrying Helm of Durfast


Can't wait to read what you guys come up with, Thanks.

Hmm...
Well, your big weakness is low model count. Your first list is simply too small - Any competent foe will slice apart your valuable models before you get a chance to bring them to bear. (As a rule of thumb, I generally find that if your average model costs well over 100 points, you don't have enough models.)
Your second list is far better, but is still small enough that it won't be hard to outmanuever, regardless of how fast it is. 50 Deathwatch Veterans in Drop Pods (1275 pts) would slice-n-dice you before you got a chance to strike back. 200 Orks Boys (1200 pts) would smother you in bodies and you wouldn't be able to fight back.

You will do well against "Monster" lists that bring big, nasty models with low rate of fire, (Your high number of Invulns and good T allow you to shrug off a few shots,) but will suffer miserably against hordes that are able to hit you hard enough.

I would say a nids list with 2-3 flyrants would cause you a massive amount of trouble, or going along with Waaaghpower, if you go against someone that threw giant unit of gaunts, you are going to have a bad day, especially if they lock down a dread.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Hmm...
Well, your big weakness is low model count. Your first list is simply too small - Any competent foe will slice apart your valuable models before you get a chance to bring them to bear. (As a rule of thumb, I generally find that if your average model costs well over 100 points, you don't have enough models.)
Your second list is far better, but is still small enough that it won't be hard to outmanuever, regardless of how fast it is. 50 Deathwatch Veterans in Drop Pods (1275 pts) would slice-n-dice you before you got a chance to strike back. 200 Orks Boys (1200 pts) would smother you in bodies and you wouldn't be able to fight back.

You will do well against "Monster" lists that bring big, nasty models with low rate of fire, (Your high number of Invulns and good T allow you to shrug off a few shots,) but will suffer miserably against hordes that are able to hit you hard enough.

That 50 deathwatch vets sounds super gross, and 200 orks sounds like fun even though I'd lose. haha! Nice perspective though actually didnt think of that

Definitely Flyrants. I am more mobile than you, shooter, and can't be assaulted. Those two Ven Dreads aren't fast enough to do much IMO

Run away and cry in the corner.

Let's see...1999 points total
Dark Eldar CAD (270 points)
HQ
Archon: Webway Portal
Archon Webway Portal
Troops
Kabbalite Warriors: 5
Kabbalite Warriors: 5

Eldar CAD (1057 pts)
HQ
Farseer

Troops
Windriders: 3x Scatlaser
Windriders: 1x Scatlaser, 2x Catapults

Elites
Wraithguard: 10
Fire Dragons: 4 + Exarch (5 total)

Heavy Support
Falcons: 3

Eldar CAD (672 points)
HQ
Farseer

Troops
Windriders: 3x Scatlaser
Windriders: 1x Scatlaser, 2x Catapults

Elites
Wraithguard: 10
Fire Dragons: 5

Each Archon and Farseer joins a unit of Wraithguard. Farseers roll on Runes of Fate. Both units start in DS Reserve.
Both Fire Dragon squads start within a Falcon. Falcon squadron starts in DS Reserve.
Bikes and Warriors start on the table spread out as much as possible. My bikes are faster than you. My weapons have longer range.
Fire Dragons are all toting Melta Guns with Assured Destruction for +3 on Vehicle Damage table. Vehicles are toast. Especially if placed near each other.
Weapon load-outs
10 S8 AP1 guns that have +1 on Vehicle Damage (for +3 total)
20 SD AP2 guns, that are Guided.
6 S8 AP2 shots at 48"
32 S6 shots that you'll get saves on.
7 Catapults (short ranged, but have a 50% chance of a Wound being AP2 since they wound on a 5+)
12 Poisoned shots that are only there because of the Dark Eldar.
I have the speed, I have the range, I have the bodies.

So a low model count army where everything is extremely difficult to kill?

My best counter to that is simply refusing the game. That sounds like an unpleasant way to spend 3 hours of my time.

 Traditio wrote:
So a low model count army where everything is extremely difficult to kill?

My best counter to that is simply refusing the game. That sounds like an unpleasant way to spend 3 hours of my time.

It's not actually that difficult to kill, TBH. Thunderwolves are T5 with a 3++, but only 2W and don't have 2+ armor. ]
Wulfen die like pansies to massed fire, as long as you can shoot them before they get into CC.
Venerable dreadnoughts are just Venerable Dreadnoughts, albiet with a bit more durability if you don't flank them. They still die to boltguns in the backside.

I would just take my standard 220 Guard Infantry list and feed you a few squads at a time and shoot you to death with over 400 shots a turn.

Sorry if this sounds arrogant, what I am trying to get across (which a few other people have mentioned) is that you are very weak to horde lists and spam lists.

I recommend either trying getmore bodies in the list i or bringing some way to counter hordes. I would find the points by dropping the dreads.

Hope this helps

This would be pretty easy to put down with a Ravenwing Support Squadron + Ravenwing Strike Force. Black Knights and grav bikers providing tons of high S/low AP shots, improved overwatch against your charge, supporting fire from the Land Speeders, and some great ways to eff up your special snowflake characters with Interromancy. Their similar mobility would allow for dancing and rear armor shots on dreadnoughts, not to mention the occasional mega-jink.

You'll actually meet a lot of counters. Dreads are fun and not exactly bad nowadays but they're still vehicles that are close-ranged oriented.

Since you don't have any psychers, i think that i'd have decent chances with my orkses here.

I like how all the counters are orks, guard and tyranids. Did not see that coming but I see the point on horde weakness

I've played a very similar list, and likewise love Dreads (not as a competitive choice, but for fun and aesthetics), and I have to prepare you for them not being nearly as durable as you think.

Murderfang, for instance, will likely never make it into CC. Its just a reality that a crafty opponent will shoot him off the table long before.

Also, Grav will cause an instant and humiliating loss of said Dreads.

I wouldn't be afraid of it with most of my armies. My Dark Angels have plenty of Grav and Black Knights, so I can shoot you down and stay away. Tyranids have 2 Flyrants and an ocean of little guys. Toxin Hormagaunts will dismantle an equal points value of Thunderwolves no problem. My IG have loads of melta and plasma inside Chimeras, Punisher Pask, and enough infantry grunt throwaway squads to slow you down long enough for the real soldiers to pour in fire. Battle Sisters have buckets of AP1 to kill the dreads and injure Thunderwolves, plus 2 squads that can hang with you in melee. I have a Canoness and Priest led battle conclave that I'll put in the ring with just about anything in 40k, and the Saint with Seraphim for harassment against damaged or small squads. You'll probably crush my Grey Knights.

IandI wrote:
I wouldn't be afraid of it with most of my armies. My Dark Angels have plenty of Grav and Black Knights, so I can shoot you down and stay away. Tyranids have 2 Flyrants and an ocean of little guys. Toxin Hormagaunts will dismantle an equal points value of Thunderwolves no problem. My IG have loads of melta and plasma inside Chimeras, Punisher Pask, and enough infantry grunt throwaway squads to slow you down long enough for the real soldiers to pour in fire. Battle Sisters have buckets of AP1 to kill the dreads and injure Thunderwolves, plus 2 squads that can hang with you in melee. I have a Canoness and Priest led battle conclave that I'll put in the ring with just about anything in 40k, and the Saint with Seraphim for harassment against damaged or small squads. You'll probably crush my Grey Knights.

Nice little break down, I'd be very interested in seeing guard beat my army because I feel they can but require good target priority and positioning above all else.

At least I got the win on your grey knights, haha! Ill take it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
You'll actually meet a lot of counters. Dreads are fun and not exactly bad nowadays but they're still vehicles that are close-ranged oriented.

Since you don't have any psychers, i think that i'd have decent chances with my orkses here.

Dear neptune, if my dreads got punked by ork psykers...that would make my day tbh

List 1 would honestly get rolled over by any reasonably meta list, list 2 would be a little harder but a properly protected culexus would take enough bite out of the muderpack that once those and the runepriests are dead, it would be pretty much over,

The Twolves with only 1-2 sets of Thammers are honestly not a big threat, more a distraction Carnifex than anything dangerous.

Hemlock Wraithfighters with flying D-Weapons will eat your first list. Back that with some Fire Dragons and maybe some Harlequins. It would be relatively easy to go through the list.

I would just send the Thunderwolves off-board with the Harlies.
Use the Hemlock adn Fire dragons to eat all the hull points leftover.

Second list is tougher but I might go with a similar strategy.

Sorry I don't know how to reply directly to your question regarding the IG taking on the list. My 2k army has Pask W/ a buddy Exterminator, a CCS in Chimera loaded with plasma, plasma vets in Chimera, 2x melta vet squads in Chimeras, 40 man platoon, SWS W/ flamers in a Vendetta, PCS W/melta in Chimera, Demolisher, Wyvern, some Sentinels, and an Aegis. It's weak at longer ranges but once you get within 24" it can really put down some shots. The idea is camp behind the Aegis and bubblewrap with the 40 grunts. Ideally it goes like this: you move, I shoot and run a 55 point squad as close as I can to your guys, hopefully blocking them from going around them. You move, you charge, wipe them out, consolidate. I shoot again and send in the next 55 point unit. With 4 squads, properly strung out, I can speed bump you for at least two turns, hopefully giving me the time I need to finish you off. Not too much stuff can stand in front of Pask, 7 BS4 plasma guns, 9 meltaguns, 2 plasma cannons, and a bunch of ancillary lasgun, multilaser, and heavy bolter fire for that long.

I think a grav heavy list will do short work of your forces as a whole. I faced a similar list with my centstar and took him down pretty quick. A grav heavy battle company will also probably do the same.

CaptainA wrote:
I think a grav heavy list will do short work of your forces as a whole. I faced a similar list with my centstar and took him down pretty quick. A grav heavy battle company will also probably do the same.

A Dreadnought-centric list, I have to say, just feels so demoralized when a single Grav hit puts you out of the fight, immobilized.

Okay I would use my cabalstar against this strictly cause i love dogs(flesh hounds) vs dogs(wolves). The list is as follows bumped up from 1850 itc




Chaos - Khorne Daemonkin (Allied Detachment) (548pts)
HQ (250pts)
Chaos Lord (250pts)

Axe of Khorne (30pts), Juggernaut of Khorne (45pts), Power Fist (25pts), Sigil of Corruption (25pts), The Blood-forged Armour (50pts)

Troops (58pts)
Chaos Cultists (58pts)
7x Cultists (42pts)
Cultist Champion (16pts)
Autopistol
Fast Attack (240pts)
Flesh Hounds (240pts)

15x Flesh Hounds (240pts)

Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (803pts)

Daemonic Heralds (295pts)

Herald of Tzeentch (150pts)
D6 Exalted Daemonic Reward (30pts), Disc of Tzeentch (25pts), Psyker Level 3 (50pts)

Herald of Tzeentch (145pts)
Disc of Tzeentch (25pts), Paradox (25pts), Psyker Level 3 (50pts)

Kairos Fateweaver (300pts)

Troops (208pts)

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (109pts)
Icon of Chaos (10pts), 11x Pink Horrors (99pts)

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (99pts)
11x Pink Horrors (99pts)

Cyclopia Cabal (645pts)

Sorcerer (175pts)
2x Additional Mastery Level (50pts), Bike (20pts), Bolt Pistol, Force Stave, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption (25pts), Spell familiar (15pts), Veterans of the Long War (5pts), Warlord

Sorcerer (150pts)
2x Additional Mastery Level (50pts), Bike (20pts), Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar (15pts), Veterans of the Long War (5pts)

Sorcerer (170pts)
2x Additional Mastery Level (50pts), Bolt Pistol, Force Stave, Jump Pack (15pts), Power Armour, Sigil of corruption (25pts), Spell familiar (15pts), Veterans of the Long War (5pts)

Sorcerer (150pts)
2x Additional Mastery Level (50pts), Bike (20pts), Bolt Pistol, Force Axe, Power Armour, Spell familiar (15pts), Veterans of the Long War (5pts)

Okay so my general plan vs your list(going off list 2 as it seems to be the better according to consensus) aside from the obvious buffing my own star to combat your star(khorne lord, hounds, and cabal are my star), Position my star forward to apply pressure and force your star to combat mine(or at least the thunderwolves if you decide to split them off before I charge) while kairos makes a B line for your dreadnaughts with his D spell and horrors summon whatever unit is needed at the time with paradox. grimoire goes off on the houndstar(affects hounds but not the dudes) for further durability).

If you did the math you'll know I have 26WC's to deny key buffs on your star(iron arm, endurance, invis, etc.) while helping to bolster my own and still do the other said psyker plans as the star all have spell familiars for the re roll. I have a fair amount of confidence that my star takes on nearly all others in the thick of it while very consistent summoning and blasting things apart with kairos will help keep control of the rest of the field while stars duke it out. this list has taken on the white scars superfriends barkstar and come out with the win 2/3 games when I was testing it out so I'm pretty sure my star will win the duke out and help come mop up anything the rest of my army happens to be struggling with if I couldn't pop dreadnaughts or take out the wolfen than if nothing else it splits apart into 6 seperate units to get objectives(not including the heralds on discs for more objective control if needed).

My biggest concern would be kairos getting dealt a bad hand with a failed wound and grounding check than you blasting up the field with wolfen in rhinos to take out my back line and play the objectives for the win and flanking with dreadnaughts to apply pressure than it would get pretty dicey at that point, but thats contingent on rolling really bad for kairos' saves which is entirely possible, just unlikely.

anyway sorry for the long winded post, this just happens to be my favorite match up so got me interested.

My csm would probably enjoy facing this
Black Crusade Detachment
Chaos Warband
Lord in terminator armour MoN fistclaws and Blight grenades
Sorceror mastery level 3 spell familiar
2 x 5 Nurgle CSM with a plasma gun each
5 Nurgle warptalons (cause I love the models)
5 Chaos Terminators MoN 2 Chain Fists 1 Power Fist 1 Axe 1 Tentacle
Hellbrute
Hell brute
Hell brute

Veterans of the Legions
2 x 5 Plague marines 2 plasma guns each each squad in a rhino

Lords of the Black Crusade
Sorceror Mastery Level 3 Spell Familiar

Lords of the Black Crusade
Daemon prince Nurgle Wings Armour Mastery Level 3

One sorceror rolls on ectomancy one rolls on chaos version of librarius both sorcerors plus lord join the terminators forming a Death Star while prince flies around and depending on what he told off heretek he could potentially fling haywire hits at your dreads. Every turn I'm chucking the free boon rolls onto my lord while my sorcerors fish for soul switch death hex warp fate

The average top tier list you will see at tournaments ATM will eat your list.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The average top tier list you will see at tournaments ATM will eat your list.

He's not asking us to make it tourney ready, just theorize and have fun on thinking of ways you'd beat it. No need to be all mean and stuff.

Dark Eldar
CAD
Lhamean in dual cannon venom
2X warriors in venom
5X 3 man reavers w/HL and CC
CAD
Lhamean in dual cannon venom
2X warriors in venom
5X 3 man reavers w/HL and CC
Corpse Thief Claw all with haywire and inchor injectors

Long range massed poison, sufficient mobility to stay out of melee unless I want to be in it, and the CTC which will sit in the middle and soak up everything

I will add my $0.02. Most of these "bark-stars" have a lot of psychic support. Usually by adding in an allied Librarian Conclave.

Because you dont have this, I would go phychic heavy. Get my own death-star in the form of a seer-counsel on bikes. Just run up and phychic you to death.

Alternately (again, because you will not be getting off invisibility) I would use my DE and just sit at 36" and shoot you with my Venoms (shooting 12 poisen shots for 65 pts). Eventually you would die...

TBH the worst thing in the lists are the drednaughts. If you were to swap them out for some grey-hunters it would give you more board presence, and a chance to tie up enemy deathstars (like the above seer-counsel).