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Martel732 wrote:
Can you do it without the gladius? If not, that means the gladius is good, not the tacs.

Again, this is 7th, Formations are the way you build armies. A White Scars army is likely using some sort of Formation, and I'll be combatting it with an Ultramarine Formation. But yeah, before 7th I was using Tacs in Rhinos with Grav. 7th just allowed me to double down on it. If I were to go into a battle and my opponent didn't want to use Formations, I would go CAD and still use Tacs with Grav in Rhinos.

I guess it depends on how you view it. I see the power of the tac coming solely from the gladius, and having no power of their own. That makes the gladius good to me, not the actual tac marine. I guarantee you will beat me easily with your gladius, but with your 6th ed tac squads, your life will be much harder.

Tacs begin as reasonable troops. The current vehicle rules give them some more protection with Rhinos, and the introduction of Grav in 6th boosted their offensive output. The availability of the Grav-Cannon in 7th boosted them even further. UM Doctrines (6th and 7th) add some more, the Demi-Co further, and the Gladius even further. Full Battle Co doubles down on MSU and free Transports, and if you want, a UM Character like Sicarius or Centos make them even more reliable.

If you treat them as a tax, they are one thing, if you build your army around them, they are another.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tacs begin as reasonable troops. The current vehicle rules give them some more protection with Rhinos, and the introduction of Grav in 6th boosted their offensive output. The availability of the Grav-Cannon in 7th boosted them even further. UM Doctrines (6th and 7th) add some more, the Demi-Co further, and the Gladius even further. Full Battle Co doubles down on MSU and free Transports, and if you want, a UM Character like Sicarius or Centos make them even more reliable.

If you treat them as a tax, they are one thing, if you build your army around them, they are another.

Again, they are back to garbage status without the gladius. See: BA and SW. Paying for your Rhinos makes up straight up lose to scatbikes.

Only if you only read half of the post, missing the Grav, Doctrines and supporting Characters, and are overlooking the additional options granted by Drop Pods.

SW and BA obviously build around different strategies, being more assault oriented chapters with either fast vehicles and more jump packs, or wolves and more CC weapons. Tacs should function differently in those armies, as their overall MOs are different.

Drop podding tacs is a lot less awesome than Xenos claim.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1.5 Bikers are a bit less than 10 Tactical Marines by maybe a Rhino. That 4+ is as good as another body.

If we're looking at them naked, maybe. Looking at them after full kit, the price differences manifest distinctly in the Bikers favor, especially if minmaxing. Going back to my earlier example, after kit for a ten man unit of each, the difference was what, 15pts? In a minmaxd unit, 5 bikers with 2 PG's and a powerfist is what, 155pts, while a 5man tac squad with a PG and combi+fist in a Rhino is 160?

Comparing the units on equal numbers with kit really shows how skewed stuff is. Part of that is because the Tacs basically require a transport, as they lack the mobility of the bikes and the T5 and 4+cover to mitigate damage.

The durability difference isn't as grand as you claim for it to be.

T5 with Jink and a far better ability to set the terms of engagement through mobility is huge, thats a pretty grand difference in functionality at the level of the units are are talking about.

Rhinos also add a good amount of durability to Tactical Marines, but durability isn't their primary issue, is it?

Not for the Tacs, but the T5 and Jink is a cornerstone of Biker bonuses that make Tacs seen as being pointless. Why take the Tacs when the same points will get you a more durable unit?

2. I'm sure Martel could more easily explain to you why Rhinos are important against Alpha Strikes. For the definition of Alpha Strike, we got several choices: Skyhammer, Scatterbikes hitting you first, Skitarii Drop Pods (though we will see if this is a thing anymore once the FAQ is official), Raven Guard Vanguard charges, etc. I'm not sure if you're playing the game at all now, but that's important to counter against. Bikers don't live against these things because they're either weight of wounds or have enough AP2 for that 4+ cover save to crumble.

In some circumstances, sure, I'd agree, but it all depends on what theyre being hit with. Being hit by scatterlasers or a full Centstar barrage, the 4+ wont matter, but theres a host of Alpha Strike stuff that will be dramatically mitigated by Jink, and against Scatterbikes the T5 will make a difference (not huge, but enough to be noticeable)

3. Because they wouldn't have a platform like a Rhino to keep them firing at max range.

How does a Rhino allow grav guns to always be fired at max range?

They could spam themail regular Grav gun more, but they'd be worse than the cannon option of the Tactical Marine rather than being on almost even footing.

and thats not a reasonable tradeoff for enhanced resiliency and mobility...?

4. Rhinos and Drop Pods already enabled that. The nice thing about Bikers was being able to do that and engage in melee, compared to the Tactical Marines being able to focus on shooting.

and being able to fire at full effectiveness, and charge, and get an extra CC attack at I10 to boot doesnt appear...excessive? Especially for a negligible points premium? Thats kinda what Im getting at, wanting to have a unit that does everything at full effectiveness with no meaningful tradeoff, at a negligible points increase, is a wee bit overboard.

For the record it is also a bad move because you're hitting Chaos Bikers indirectly as well. Now they're forced into Melta Guns instead of having the option to do Plasma.

I dont think CSM (or Eldar) bikers should be able to do all those things either. CSM bikers cant be made troops and form the core of an army the way SM bikes can, making the internal balance problem less pressing. Eldar Jetbikes also obviously need some significant toning down.

5. T5 is good and Jink is nice when it actually helps, but Tactical Marines get the option of creating two scoring units thanks to their transport.

You can combat squad bikes cant you? The option is there, you just need a full sized unit.

6. No, the issue here is Tactical Marines don't have a niche for attacking. Hence why we have Bikers for real offense and Scouts for primarily scoring. The issue has always been Tactical Marines, not Bikers.

Tacs have some functionality issues, but the answer to that shouldnt be a biker unit that just does more than what the tacs do and does them all better. Theres a lot of problems with 40k, and none of them exist in a vacuum, but while Tacs have their issues, Bikers (from all armies) are stupidly overcapable, especially for what they cost, and often in completely nonsensical ways.

7. And then the Tactical Marines AND Bikers do nothing? I'm unsure if you actually care about Balance or just hate Bikers.

I dont *hate* Bikers (though Im not a fan of their implementation as heavy cavalry), and Im not saying there shouldnt also be changes elsewhere, but the Bikers are really overcapable, and if the response to a potential nerfing is to use units that are actually supposed to fills the roles that Bikers overtook because they were overcapable, I dont see that as a bad thing.

8. People complained when that happened because it made Tactical Marines worse off, but nobody was using them in the first place. I'm putting everything together to show Tactical Marines are the problem. Everyone is using them to balance against when they were always the worst off outside 4th when they could do two special weapons.

Again, the two special weapons thing isnt that huge an issue. CSMs can take two specials, and most competitive CSM armies avoid taking any actual CSMs at all if they can. Im not opposed to SMs getting that option but I dont think thats really the core of the issue. The scale of the game gas bloated to the point where basic infantry is left behind, and units like Bikers and Scatterbikes just do everything better, while mechanics changes have hosed their versatility at the smaller levels. Allowing units to charge out of transports in the 5E style would make units like Tacs a whole lot more viable in general, and I think a lot more than just an extea special weapon.

1. gak argument. Why are you buying a Power Fist for a unit you KNOW won't assault or can't assault well? When you pour points into useless upgrades, you get useless results. A Tactical Squad like that was NEVER meant to perform well.
2. T5 definitely helps vs small arms, but you're exaggerating how great Jink is. It is fairly easy for most infantry to get a cover save anyway. Bikers simply don't need the terrain at the cost of shooting performance.
3. Honestly, if your alpha strike list is countered by a mere T5 and a 4+ cover save, it wasn't a good alpha strike list to begin with. How many of the things I suggested earlier are actually countered by that? None.
4. Depends how far the Rhino moves.
5. Because Space Marine Bikers were wiping out squads with 2-3 S4 hits on the charge and then left with 1 attack if that fails? If you really think they're any good at melee you're already not changing your mind.
6. If you really think Chaos Bikers shouldn't be able to do that, you really don't understand the balance of the game. They don't have to be made troops either. You either take their equivalent of the Decurion for the OS, you pay a "tax" of MoK to get a bunch of them with Hounds.
If a Lord or Sorcerer unlocked them as troops if they take a bike, would you HONESTLY have issues? Also, everyone already knows Windriders are a separate issue.
7. Or is it that Bikers are JUST capable of the job, like Scouts, and there's a desperation to bring them down? I think it is this. Do we really want everything on the level of Tactical Marines? No. We need a fix for them instead.
8. Except they're just doing the role of what Tactical Marines should be doing. Nobody complains when Scouts are used to do the same things, and quite frankly that's ONLY because of Grav Guns. Those aren't even greatly dangerous anyway.
9. Chaos Tactical Marines are not used for several other reasons. The way they function makes more sense though. However, here's reasons why nobody uses them:
a. The mandatory champion tax
b. Plague Marines and Chosen get their special weapons fix FOR LESS
c. They lost their CCW's and have to buy them back at an expensive price
d. Cultists as the tax means more room for things that don't suck in the codex.
You ever use this pile of junk codex? I sure have.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop podding tacs is a lot less awesome than Xenos claim.

Hehe, but certainly a lot better than you claim.

I don't know. Podded units have a tendency to die really quickly. Non-gladius tac marines are just subpar from a objective standpoint. I tabled tac heavy list after tac heavy list in 5th ed. Before I got gimped by GW. Your obj sec doesn't matter if I table you.

The only response I can give you is to offer a game or two if we ever meet in person.

Would prove very little as i have ba who are inferior to vanilla marines in every way. I've 20 years of play informing my opinion of tac marines.

Martel732 wrote:
I've 20 years of play informing my opinion of tac marines.

Likewise.

That weakens your position considerably, actually. Anyone who thinks tacs were good in 2nd and 5th is not demonstrating an objective viewpoint. 6th and 7th I can understand for sure and 3rd and 4th kinda.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. gak argument. Why are you buying a Power Fist for a unit you KNOW won't assault or can't assault well? When you pour points into useless upgrades, you get useless results. A Tactical Squad like that was NEVER meant to perform well.

I'm comparing like for like and have seen people kit tac squads out with powerfists on 5man units before (or on units the intend to use combat squaded as 5man units). One also might not see such a setup much at 2k points, but at 750 such units are often rather common. Even if we take the Powerfist off the Tac squad, the Tac squad is worse in just about every way and is a mere 10% cheaper? Either way, it's an issue.

2. T5 definitely helps vs small arms, but you're exaggerating how great Jink is. It is fairly easy for most infantry to get a cover save anyway. Bikers simply don't need the terrain at the cost of shooting performance.

There's all sorts of places where Jink comes in handy, and as my primary armies are Guard and CSM, burning through T5 with 3+/4++cover isn't exactly the easiest thing in the universe the way it might be for the megabroken Eldar. One will notice most SM deathstars not built around SW's are instead built around T5 Jinking Bikers of one sort or another (either DA's or WS's).

3. Honestly, if your alpha strike list is countered by a mere T5 and a 4+ cover save, it wasn't a good alpha strike list to begin with. How many of the things I suggested earlier are actually countered by that? None.

If they're bringing enough firepower to kill anything that isn't a 700pt Deathstar, sure, but then lets acknowledge that for what it is, overwhelming firepower that will kill almost anything. If we're talking about something like a drop pod of sternguard with combiplasmas, or a flurry of IG pieplates, that 4+ matters a whole lot, and as noted, the T5 does take an edge off of things like Scatterlasers.

4. Depends how far the Rhino moves.

Same would hold true for the bikes then instead of them just always getting to fire at max effectiveness just because.

5. Because Space Marine Bikers were wiping out squads with 2-3 S4 hits on the charge and then left with 1 attack if that fails? If you really think they're any good at melee you're already not changing your mind.

I'm not saying they're amazing CC ultra killers, but being able to fire at full effectiveness with identical or better weapons than Tac's, with greater mobility and resiliency, and charge at the same time, with more attacks to boot, makes for a unit that can just do too much for what it pays, particularly next to its alternatives and counterparts.

6. If you really think Chaos Bikers shouldn't be able to do that, you really don't understand the balance of the game. They don't have to be made troops either. You either take their equivalent of the Decurion for the OS, you pay a "tax" of MoK to get a bunch of them with Hounds.
If a Lord or Sorcerer unlocked them as troops if they take a bike, would you HONESTLY have issues?

I have issues with bikes being overcapable, regardless of the codex. I don't think it's specific to any one army. Getting a T boost, Relentless, an extra I10 charge hit, Jink, 2-4x the speed and no slowing for terrain, with generally better weapons options than footslogging counterparts, for the tiny relative premium they pay, is pretty ridiculous regardless of codex.

Also, everyone already knows Windriders are a separate issue.

They're part of the whole "bikes simply do too much" issue. They're shootier, they're hardier, they charge harder, they're more mobile, etc and not requiring a transport means they ultimately end up no more expensive than their inferior counterparts, often less, it's hard to see a reason to take a footslogging alternative for the same points in most cases.

7. Or is it that Bikers are JUST capable of the job, like Scouts, and there's a desperation to bring them down? I think it is this.

So...I have some deep seated bias against Bike units for some strange unknown reason? I don't hate bikes, I'm not desperate to "bring them down" because they're "capable", I think they're overcapable and require little thought to use, which I see as a problem. They can shoot as well, or better in most cases, as infantry. They are an order of magnitude more mobile than their infantry counterparts. They are harder to kill then their infantry counterparts and don't have to rely on the use of terrain for damage mitigation if they don't want to. They hit harder on a charge than their infantry alternatives. They just do everything better than their infantry alternatives. And that's what I have a problem with, primarily as they don't really pay a meaningful amount for those bonuses and can just zip around the board doing everything without any trade-offs except with Jink (and even that is mitigated somewhat by TL'd guns).

8. Except they're just doing the role of what Tactical Marines should be doing. Nobody complains when Scouts are used to do the same things, and quite frankly that's ONLY because of Grav Guns. Those aren't even greatly dangerous anyway.

I'm not quite sure which of my responses this was addressed to.

9. Chaos Tactical Marines are not used for several other reasons. The way they function makes more sense though. However, here's reasons why nobody uses them:
a. The mandatory champion tax
b. Plague Marines and Chosen get their special weapons fix FOR LESS
c. They lost their CCW's and have to buy them back at an expensive price
d. Cultists as the tax means more room for things that don't suck in the codex.
You ever use this pile of junk codex? I sure have.

Yeah, I'm well aware of those issues, but ultimately, they can take two specials and end up about on par with Tac squads in terms of other capabilities for the most part for a similar price, but still aren't often used competitively (and even units like Plague Marines aren't often used much anymore, it's a Sorc, Belakor, Cultists and a bunch of Daemons). Double special weapons aren't making or breaking Tac's or CSM's, there are other structural scale and functionality issues that have a dramatically larger impact on that, and that affect other armies as well.

Martel732 wrote:
. . .6th and 7th I can understand for sure . . .

Then why are you complaining about them now?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
. . .6th and 7th I can understand for sure . . .

Then why are you complaining about them now?

Because I still think non-gladius tacs are trash. Try to take on Eldar or Tau with a tac-heavy non-Gladius list and let me know how that goes.

If they're going to use Formations then I'll bring mine. If they wanted CAD I'd be happy to do that too. At the very least Drop Podding Grav is a go-to answer for WK, and everything else is at least killable. Swarms of Scatbikes and Warp Spiders will sure be a tough hill to climb, but you know how it goes: Not-OP =/= trash.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. gak argument. Why are you buying a Power Fist for a unit you KNOW won't assault or can't assault well? When you pour points into useless upgrades, you get useless results. A Tactical Squad like that was NEVER meant to perform well.

I'm comparing like for like and have seen people kit tac squads out with powerfists on 5man units before (or on units the intend to use combat squaded as 5man units). One also might not see such a setup much at 2k points, but at 750 such units are often rather common. Even if we take the Powerfist off the Tac squad, the Tac squad is worse in just about every way and is a mere 10% cheaper? Either way, it's an issue.

2. T5 definitely helps vs small arms, but you're exaggerating how great Jink is. It is fairly easy for most infantry to get a cover save anyway. Bikers simply don't need the terrain at the cost of shooting performance.

There's all sorts of places where Jink comes in handy, and as my primary armies are Guard and CSM, burning through T5 with 3+/4++cover isn't exactly the easiest thing in the universe the way it might be for the megabroken Eldar. One will notice most SM deathstars not built around SW's are instead built around T5 Jinking Bikers of one sort or another (either DA's or WS's).

3. Honestly, if your alpha strike list is countered by a mere T5 and a 4+ cover save, it wasn't a good alpha strike list to begin with. How many of the things I suggested earlier are actually countered by that? None.

If they're bringing enough firepower to kill anything that isn't a 700pt Deathstar, sure, but then lets acknowledge that for what it is, overwhelming firepower that will kill almost anything. If we're talking about something like a drop pod of sternguard with combiplasmas, or a flurry of IG pieplates, that 4+ matters a whole lot, and as noted, the T5 does take an edge off of things like Scatterlasers.

4. Depends how far the Rhino moves.

Same would hold true for the bikes then instead of them just always getting to fire at max effectiveness just because.

5. Because Space Marine Bikers were wiping out squads with 2-3 S4 hits on the charge and then left with 1 attack if that fails? If you really think they're any good at melee you're already not changing your mind.

I'm not saying they're amazing CC ultra killers, but being able to fire at full effectiveness with identical or better weapons than Tac's, with greater mobility and resiliency, and charge at the same time, with more attacks to boot, makes for a unit that can just do too much for what it pays, particularly next to its alternatives and counterparts.

6. If you really think Chaos Bikers shouldn't be able to do that, you really don't understand the balance of the game. They don't have to be made troops either. You either take their equivalent of the Decurion for the OS, you pay a "tax" of MoK to get a bunch of them with Hounds.
If a Lord or Sorcerer unlocked them as troops if they take a bike, would you HONESTLY have issues?

I have issues with bikes being overcapable, regardless of the codex. I don't think it's specific to any one army. Getting a T boost, Relentless, an extra I10 charge hit, Jink, 2-4x the speed and no slowing for terrain, with generally better weapons options than footslogging counterparts, for the tiny relative premium they pay, is pretty ridiculous regardless of codex.

Also, everyone already knows Windriders are a separate issue.

They're part of the whole "bikes simply do too much" issue. They're shootier, they're hardier, they charge harder, they're more mobile, etc and not requiring a transport means they ultimately end up no more expensive than their inferior counterparts, often less, it's hard to see a reason to take a footslogging alternative for the same points in most cases.

7. Or is it that Bikers are JUST capable of the job, like Scouts, and there's a desperation to bring them down? I think it is this.

So...I have some deep seated bias against Bike units for some strange unknown reason? I don't hate bikes, I'm not desperate to "bring them down" because they're "capable", I think they're overcapable and require little thought to use, which I see as a problem. They can shoot as well, or better in most cases, as infantry. They are an order of magnitude more mobile than their infantry counterparts. They are harder to kill then their infantry counterparts and don't have to rely on the use of terrain for damage mitigation if they don't want to. They hit harder on a charge than their infantry alternatives. They just do everything better than their infantry alternatives. And that's what I have a problem with, primarily as they don't really pay a meaningful amount for those bonuses and can just zip around the board doing everything without any trade-offs except with Jink (and even that is mitigated somewhat by TL'd guns).

8. Except they're just doing the role of what Tactical Marines should be doing. Nobody complains when Scouts are used to do the same things, and quite frankly that's ONLY because of Grav Guns. Those aren't even greatly dangerous anyway.

I'm not quite sure which of my responses this was addressed to.

9. Chaos Tactical Marines are not used for several other reasons. The way they function makes more sense though. However, here's reasons why nobody uses them:
a. The mandatory champion tax
b. Plague Marines and Chosen get their special weapons fix FOR LESS
c. They lost their CCW's and have to buy them back at an expensive price
d. Cultists as the tax means more room for things that don't suck in the codex.
You ever use this pile of junk codex? I sure have.

Yeah, I'm well aware of those issues, but ultimately, they can take two specials and end up about on par with Tac squads in terms of other capabilities for the most part for a similar price, but still aren't often used competitively (and even units like Plague Marines aren't often used much anymore, it's a Sorc, Belakor, Cultists and a bunch of Daemons). Double special weapons aren't making or breaking Tac's or CSM's, there are other structural scale and functionality issues that have a dramatically larger impact on that, and that affect other armies as well.

1. If you play with people that kit out their units in a gak way, they get gak results. The issue is that Tactical Marines don't really HAVE an optimal loadout. They have several bad ones. Now, is that the fault of Bikers or the Tactical Marines. I also don't care what you see, I care about what is done competitively. You definitely won't see that at 750 either because it is an easy kill target for the points.

Like, what the hell goes on in your area? People just do what they feel like? It isn't any wonder why Bikers seem over capable.
2. You're playing with really crap codices. As someone that uses CSM I understand the pain. They don't have an easy time doing anything. That's the fault of poor codex writing courtesy of Phil Kelley though. Don't blame Space Marine and Ork Bikers for that.
3. IG already have bad internal issues, but one of their good pieces of artillery, the Wyvern, has NO issue killing bikes. The Russ will because Russes are garbage for the price.
Sternguard shouldn't that hurt going after the Bikers. They'll still get the kill, but it isn't the overkill you're expecting from them. I just do two Plasma Guns in a group of 6-7 to force jinks if the opponent is scared and then the 2+ round will force enough wounds to kill them.

Don't spend more than necessary.
4. Rhinos can allow firing at max range but will always provide cover. There's your tradeoff.
5. They don't have extra attacks unless you really do think HoW somehow matters. It makes a difference with Raven Guard and Scars, but otherwise it is a very minor bonus you'll sometimes not even remember. It is basically Fear that happens often.
It really isn't more attacks for the price, plus there's Chapter Tactics that mitigate those issues.
6. And you fail to address the alternative: is it that Bikers are over capable, or are Tactical equivalents under capable? Tactical Marines cannot specialize to hurt a specific target and be on the move. Ork Boyz are too easily wiped out without a force field (and then you have Ignores Cover being a thing). Eldar Guardians actually have a great gun, but getting into range to use it will never happen to the point you don't take them over Dire Avengers, who have better bonuses anyway if you didn't want Scatterlasers everywhere. Chaos Tactical Marines get their fix of special weapons for more than Bikers, Raptors, Plague Marines, AND Chosen and Havocs, two of those being able to become troops.

There's no equivalent for Guard outside Rough Riders but they're garbage so...

However, nobody complains about having Grey Hunters as troops. This is part of the reason why.
7. This is mostly addressed in #6. However, the ONLY Biker unit paying too little for these bonuses is Windriders.
Unless you think we should the way of old where Bikers where about 30 a piece and got little use because of it. I definitely never saw Bikers in 4th, when I started, outside a few games (and then there was Destroyers, worth their weight in gold).
8. You said Bikers were doing everything better than Tactical Marines, when the issue is that they have functionality issues. Scouts don't have issues. Bikers don't have issues. Grey Hunters definitely don't have issues.
9. That is because Vanilla Chaos Marines lost a bunch, including slightly okay LD, extra weapons, and they have to pay a tax for the Champion. I partially covered this in #6 as well, where you get Special weapons for cheaper elsewhere, plus two of those choices (Plague and Chosen) can be troops. In another post, I talked about how Bikers could pay a minimal tax of MoK and be taken in a Gorepack, which is awesome.
Why would you want Chaos Marines in the first place when you can just pay the Cultist tax or use other means to get special weapons and still be good at scoring?

Hammer of Wrath is actually BETTER than an extra attack, since it auto-hits. Against WS 4 guys, that's the equivalent of two bonus attacks.

The exception is if you have an actual weapon, in which case, it's much worse.

Haven't read through the entire thread, but I do know that motorcycles with mounted machine guns were used by the US in WWI and WWII

And bikes were ridden by US soldiers holding Tompson machine guns, which just seems ridiculous and horrible to do (having fire a tompson before that thing is heavy!)

And, they have been used in somewhat modern warfare as escort units.

So its not *that* far out there, but its still pretty stupid.

It makes sense that Eldar jetbikes get relentless because they seem extremely maneuverable and easy to pivot and shoot with.

But a space marine bike? Hell no. Although it is an important balancing factor, as it would nerf my precious fluffy swiftclaws to the ground if they lost it, it shouldn't make heavy weapons fire at full effectiveness.

Maybe rapid fire, then charge? But no heavy weapons bar attack bikes?

Just my %0.02

~Mikey

There's nothing wrong with Bikes of any kind that taking them out of the Troops category doesn't fix. That'd seem to be the way GW is going anyway. Codex: Dark Angels doesn't have the option of taking Ravenwing Bike Squadrons as Troops anymore. Instead, it has the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment. I expect we'll see similar revisions in future dexes.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Bikes of any kind that taking them out of the Troops category doesn't fix. That'd seem to be the way GW is going anyway. Codex: Dark Angels doesn't have the option of taking Ravenwing Bike Squadrons as Troops anymore. Instead, it has the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment. I expect we'll see similar revisions in future dexes.

Well...except for scatter bikes, they need to die in a fire. And moving them to Fast attack (where they belong) would definitely be good but then you would just see more abuse from the stupid formations that they get access to so they can spam those and Warp spiders still.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Bikes of any kind that taking them out of the Troops category doesn't fix. That'd seem to be the way GW is going anyway. Codex: Dark Angels doesn't have the option of taking Ravenwing Bike Squadrons as Troops anymore. Instead, it has the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment. I expect we'll see similar revisions in future dexes.

Well...except for scatter bikes, they need to die in a fire. And moving them to Fast attack (where they belong) would definitely be good but then you would just see more abuse from the stupid formations that they get access to so they can spam those and Warp spiders still.

People need to stop saying that Windriders need to be moved to FA. Guardian Jetbikes have been Troops for decades and form the backbone of an entire Craftworld amry (Saim-Hann). And the last time I checked, there are way more Eldar on a Craftworld than Space Marines in a Chapter. Saying Windriders need to be moved to FA is like saying Tactical Marines need to be moved to Elite.

Now if you want to move SCATTER bikes to FA, I would be cool with that.
Keep the traditional Windriders that can upgrade 1 per 3 Shuricannon as Troops, then create a Fast Attack choice (let's call them "Stormriders") in which any "Stormrider" can upgrade to a Shuricannon or Scatterlaser.
Then you can change the Windrider Host to include 2-3 units of Windriders, 1 Vyper unit and only 1 "Stormrider" unit.
That would more than half the number of Scatterbike you could take in any army.

-

 Galef wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Bikes of any kind that taking them out of the Troops category doesn't fix. That'd seem to be the way GW is going anyway. Codex: Dark Angels doesn't have the option of taking Ravenwing Bike Squadrons as Troops anymore. Instead, it has the Ravenwing Strike Force detachment. I expect we'll see similar revisions in future dexes.

Well...except for scatter bikes, they need to die in a fire. And moving them to Fast attack (where they belong) would definitely be good but then you would just see more abuse from the stupid formations that they get access to so they can spam those and Warp spiders still.

People need to stop saying that Windriders need to be moved to FA. Guardian Jetbikes have been Troops for decades and form the backbone of an entire Craftworld amry (Saim-Hann). And the last time I checked, there are way more Eldar on a Craftworld than Space Marines in a Chapter. Saying Windriders need to be moved to FA is like saying Tactical Marines need to be moved to Elite.

Now if you want to move SCATTER bikes to FA, I would be cool with that.
Keep the traditional Windriders that can upgrade 1 per 3 Shuricannon as Troops, then create a Fast Attack choice (let's call them "Stormriders") in which any "Stormrider" can upgrade to a Shuricannon or Scatterlaser.
Then you can change the Windrider Host to include 2-3 units of Windriders, 1 Vyper unit and only 1 "Stormrider" unit.
That would more than half the number of Scatterbike you could take in any army.

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There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

SemperMortis wrote:

There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Just because GW takes a dump on 1 army, doesn't justify or necessitate dumping on another.


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Galef wrote:
People need to stop saying that Windriders need to be moved to FA. Guardian Jetbikes have been Troops for decades and form the backbone of an entire Craftworld amry (Saim-Hann).

And there's a detachment that reflects this already. Windriders don't also need to be in Troops. Having them there dates to the 4th ed Eldar dex, when they were shifted to Troops because conditional FOC swaps weren't a thing yet, and Phil Kelly didn't want to invalidate Samm-Hann armies. Which is fine for then, but not for now. Everybody else is losing their conditional FOC-swaps. Heck, before the 4th ed Codex: Eldar came out, Dark Angels had an alternate FOC they could use where Ravenwing Bikes became Troops. Now, they don't have that anymore, they don't have conditional FOC swaps anymore, but they DO have the Ravenwing Strike Force. So your argument that Windriders shouldn't get shifted to FA because of the amount of time they've been Troops has no weight. There is absolutely no valid reason Eldar should get to keep Windriders as Troops any longer.

Just one question - what do people think about keeping bikes as troops, with the condition of having other troops unblocking them?

- You can select one Windrider troop for each unit of guardians, rangers or dire avengers.
- You can select one Space Marine bikers troop for each unit of scouts or tacticals

I see that people could be upset to lose a "fast" army theme, but transports are there for a reason...
Would these be considered "taxes" too high?

Just make the scatterlaser 20 or 25 pts and the scatterbike is fair and the rest of this doesn't matter. Appropriate pricing makes 90% of hang-wringing moot.

Don't try to be crazy Martel. Making Riders 4+ and Scatterlasers 15 on them is a perfectly reasonable fix.

That works too. But it doesn't fix the scatterlaser on all the other Eldar platforms.