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 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

And there's a detachment that reflects this already. Windriders don't also need to be in Troops. Having them there dates to the 4th ed Eldar dex, when they were shifted to Troops because conditional FOC swaps weren't a thing yet, and Phil Kelly didn't want to invalidate Samm-Hann armies. Which is fine for then, but not for now. Everybody else is losing their conditional FOC-swaps. Heck, before the 4th ed Codex: Eldar came out, Dark Angels had an alternate FOC they could use where Ravenwing Bikes became Troops. Now, they don't have that anymore, they don't have conditional FOC swaps anymore, but they DO have the Ravenwing Strike Force. So your argument that Windriders shouldn't get shifted to FA because of the amount of time they've been Troops has no weight. There is absolutely no valid reason Eldar should get to keep Windriders as Troops any longer.

I'm really in the camp where I think it's moot whether or not they're troops, since they're available in their own formation anyways. How much does it matter? I suppose they're Ob-Sec in a CAD, but it's just not that big of an issue to me. The standout issue remains the cheap and abundant Scatter Lasers.

Jetbikes being Fast Attack cuts down on the availability of other Fast Attack options in a CAD, though. Hawks, Spiders, Spears, Vypers and aircraft. I don't think that's good.

I am pretty jaded on this topic because I am a fairly new player and my friend has a DA army with Sammael in a Ravenwing Command squad getting librarian buffs crapping all over me every time we play. Bikes would not be a problem if certain factions/chapters did not have special rules pushing them over the top. You would be seeing people with bikes making tournament top 10 every time with something besides White Scar, Dark Angels, Eldar flavor of the edition lists if the bikes them self where the problem. They need to fix that before you start adjusting stats, taking away 1 toughness is not going to fix the issue of 95% of your army choices being uncompetitive. Building a gladius so you can bleed units or switching to one of the anointed factions should not be the answer given to new players. And who ever came up with 3+ rerollable jink saves needs to be slapped.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Haven't read through the entire thread, but I do know that motorcycles with mounted machine guns were used by the US in WWI and WWII

And bikes were ridden by US soldiers holding Tompson machine guns, which just seems ridiculous and horrible to do (having fire a tompson before that thing is heavy!)

But in these cases the machine gun was usually bolted on a sidecar with a separate gunner (at least the German version) and Thompsons too were often mounted somehow, not fired from the hip while riding along at 80mph. Bike troops generally dismounted (or at least stopped moving) before they started shooting simply because they too liked actually hitting their targets.

SemperMortis wrote:There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

Here's a crazy thought:

Maybe we should just ignore fluff when we talk about game balance, given the fact that game balance is ultimately a matter of structural/mathematical mechanics, not fluff.

Martel732 wrote:
Appropriate pricing makes 90% of hang-wringing moot.

You're not wrong here. I don't really have a problem with Eldar being fast, manoeuvrable, and having crazy good guns; all those things are entirely in keeping with what Eldar should be about. The problem is that they aren't paying enough points for a horrifically effective unit.

Did a bit of maths: A scatter laser jetbike costs FEWER points than the guy in a tactical squad carrying a missile launcher (let's not get into whether or not he should have that missile launcher for now, hey?). The SL is significantly more effective than the missile launcher at killing more or less everything (the only exceptions to this are once you're dealing with AV12+). The statline's basically the same, bar S (and, let's face it if you're getting into CC with either of these guys you're doing it wrong). Yet the pointy-head gets all the benefits of being a jetbike. Not to mention that in their respective units, the jetbike can be joined by two of his mates, also with scatter lasers, for fewer points than the marines other four lads with bolters cost.

Now personally, I know some people have issues with the traditional tac squad loadout (and tac marines in general), but I think it'd be a shame to ditch it/them. What I have a problem with is that 1. a weedy little Eldar gets on a pointy bike and suddenly becomes a flying space marine, with absolutely zero drawbacks; 2. the stupidly low points cost of this guy when upgraded to having a horrifically effective weapon. Bump them to about 50+ppm and I think people would be a lot less mad about them, but they'd still be worthwhile taking in an Eldar list – they're that good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't try to be crazy Martel. Making Riders 4+ and Scatterlasers 15 on them is a perfectly reasonable fix.

Spent so long typing my response I missed this. Obviously if their base stats get dropped, then the points don't need to go up as much. But still, I think 32 points for a 4+ jetbike with a SL is crazy good. I'd say 35, absolute minimum. They'd still get taken at 40-45.

I think a big problem is the shooting aspect teamed with Kelly's inability for his models to be bad at anything.

SMs are relatively speaking ok at CC. Good armor teamed with T5 and S4 is not bad. # of attacks is a bit of a problem but hey whatever. They also get good weapons to put on those bikes to team with their BS4. So over all they are good at CC, good at shooting and Fast. Cost? 21ppm (7 more then basic Tactical marine)

Eldar are not as good at CC, Same armor as a SM, lower Strength and Toughness and their standard weapon is 12' shorter ranged...of course it has Bladestorm which is nice but not necessarily a huge boost. They do Have higher Initiative and can equip EVERY BIKE with a Scat laser. At BS4 this is devastating. Cost? 17ppm (4 more then standard Dire Avenger) Interesting to note, the bike gives +1 armor, +1 Toughness and TL weapon not to mention massive boost to movement and a 4+Jink save and Eldar players get that for 4ppm......

Orks are good at CC, not great but good. T5 is good but S3 is still a huge problem, even with 2 attacks base (3 w/CC weapons). 4+ armor is good (best ork boyz can get) but not nearly as good as the 3+ SMs and Eldar get. Gunz, here is where orks get a nice little boost. Dakkagunz are S5 AP5 Assault 3 TL. For a BS2 boy that means almost 2 hits per model each shooting phase, not bad. Range 18 is a problem (1/2 the distance of a SL) but Warbikers pack some decent dakka. Price? 18ppm (12!!!!! POINTS MORE then a standard boy)

So to put that in perspective the Eldar only loses 1 category to other armies and that is in CC, to balance that out so that it never is a problem, Windriders are Jetbikes which are significantly faster then every other biker out there. They also have the longest ranged guns. And even worse then all of that, they are the cheapest upgrade from a standard infantry model. 4ppm for Eldar, 7ppm for SM and 12ppm for Orks.

gunnr80 wrote:
I am pretty jaded on this topic because I am a fairly new player and my friend has a DA army with Sammael in a Ravenwing Command squad getting librarian buffs crapping all over me every time we play. Bikes would not be a problem if certain factions/chapters did not have special rules pushing them over the top. You would be seeing people with bikes making tournament top 10 every time with something besides White Scar, Dark Angels, Eldar flavor of the edition lists if the bikes them self where the problem. They need to fix that before you start adjusting stats, taking away 1 toughness is not going to fix the issue of 95% of your army choices being uncompetitive. Building a gladius so you can bleed units or switching to one of the anointed factions should not be the answer given to new players. And who ever came up with 3+ rerollable jink saves needs to be slapped.

I don't like rerollable jinks either. Thankfully if you're playing codex space marines we have access to the Pinion demi company which is able to spread plenty of Ignores Cover around with some scout squads. You can shut down that jinking and build an army with more flexibility than the battle company.

 Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

Here's a crazy thought:

Maybe we should just ignore fluff when we talk about game balance, given the fact that game balance is ultimately a matter of structural/mathematical mechanics, not fluff.

Go and play a different game then.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

Here's a crazy thought:

Maybe we should just ignore fluff when we talk about game balance, given the fact that game balance is ultimately a matter of structural/mathematical mechanics, not fluff.

Go and play a different game then.

Or god forbid, the idiots in charge take the fluff writers aside and work with them when writing rules. Instead of having 2 completely different universes. 40k Fluff where a SM is capable of taking out entire guard platoons himself, and 40k Game where a SM is taken as a tax because he isn't good unless taken in a stupid formation that lets him bring 400pts of free transports

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:There is also an entire Ork Tribe that likes bikes and fast vehicles I think they MASSIVELY out number EVERY Craftworld combined by themselves. So shouldn't orks be able to take Warbikers (for cheaper because reasons) as troops as well?

Here's a crazy thought:

Maybe we should just ignore fluff when we talk about game balance, given the fact that game balance is ultimately a matter of structural/mathematical mechanics, not fluff.

Go and play a different game then.

The fluff is truly meaningless at this point. Nowhere in the fluff does it describe scatterbikes laying waste ti iks like chumps.

Nowhere in the fluff does it even mention jetbikes armed with scatterlasers as far as I can remember, much less units armed entirely with them

]The best fix would be that the TL guns can only fire in a straight line. They are fore mounted on the bike so why can they fire at any enemies in range? should also be able to blow them up. They have a big ass fuel tank right up front. Why a toughness hike? The bike would be an armor at best. My wife doesn't just get super tough when she sits on my bike. Honestly mobility should be the only buff a bike gives. Even run flat tires don't explain how the giant targets that they are makes a guy tougher. This dodge bike is the closest modern analog. Shooting it will feth the rider or bike up

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The best fix would be that the TL guns can only fire in a straight line. They are fore mounted on the bike so why can they fire at any enemies in range? should also be able to blow them up. They have a big ass fuel tank right up front. Why a toughness hike? The bike would be an armor at best. My wife doesn't just get super tough when she sits on my bike. Honestly mobility should be the only buff a bike gives. Even run flat tires don't explain how the giant targets that they are makes a guy tougher. This dodge bike is the closest modern analog. Shooting it will feth the rider or bike up

The straight line shooting would add more complications. Since now jinking and whatnot have been introduced and the point cost reduced, too, probably there is no need of +1T.

Also, scatbikes have 3+. That is a collateral problem but has to go.

Spetulhu wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Haven't read through the entire thread, but I do know that motorcycles with mounted machine guns were used by the US in WWI and WWII

And bikes were ridden by US soldiers holding Tompson machine guns, which just seems ridiculous and horrible to do (having fire a tompson before that thing is heavy!)

But in these cases the machine gun was usually bolted on a sidecar with a separate gunner (at least the German version) and Thompsons too were often mounted somehow, not fired from the hip while riding along at 80mph. Bike troops generally dismounted (or at least stopped moving) before they started shooting simply because they too liked actually hitting their targets.

I stand corrected. Honestly, I just googled bikes used in warfare and got those results.

That was simply my firehowler fanboyism talking trying to justify vikings on space bikes

True the straight line shooting would complicate things. Perhaps arc of fire like any other vehicles. 1 hp av11 small blast when dies str3 ap0