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in overall power and conquering legacy?

He's attempted to overthrow the Imperium in the exact opposite manor in which Horus did.

Horus fell to chaos, cut his dead weight, held up the enemy legions that would have caused him the most trouble (baring the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels (which he attempted to do)), and cut the shortest path to terra possible in order to quickly sever the head and establish himself as Emperor before anyone could stop him. His gamble failed, and the traitor legions were crushed.

Abaddon has slowly built up his legion over 10000 years and eaten away at the Imperium to the point of collapse. He's waged several wars in order to build his influence and power and used Chaos as a tool for his arsenal instead of a fallen to it like Horus did.

Until Abaddon reaches Terra, he cannot claim that he has equalled Horus, and until he strikes down the Emperor and takes the throne, he can't claim that he has surpassed Horus.

He has been the Warmaster for longer than Horus, but at the end of the day both of them only ever had one goal in mind. The rest of it is meaningless unless their final goal is achieved.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
He's attempted to overthrow the Imperium in the exact opposite manor in which Horus did.

Horus fell to chaos, cut his dead weight, held up the enemy legions that would have caused him the most trouble (baring the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels (which he attempted to do)), and cut the shortest path to terra possible in order to quickly sever the head and establish himself as Emperor before anyone could stop him. His gamble failed, and the traitor legions were crushed.

Abaddon has slowly built up his legion over 10000 years and eaten away at the Imperium to the point of collapse. He's waged several wars in order to build his influence and power and used Chaos as a tool for his arsenal instead of a fallen to it like Horus did.

Until Abaddon reaches Terra, he cannot claim that he has equalled Horus, and until he strikes down the Emperor and takes the throne, he can't claim that he has surpassed Horus.

He has been the Warmaster for longer than Horus, but at the end of the day both of them only ever had one goal in mind. The rest of it is meaningless unless their final goal is achieved.

what about Abaddon's quote here

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip "

...Do you think Abaddon is an impartial judge in that quote?

Do you think Abaddon has an objective viewpoint in that quote?

He's clearly approached confrontation with the Imperium differently, but someone badmouthing their former, failed leader (when that someone hasn't actually succeeded in performing what that former leader failed to do) is hardly what I'd rely on in assessing if the new leader has surpassed the old.

Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

I think once a character reaches a certain level, there's not really a debate about which is better. They are just top tier, and attempting to take it further than won't lead to a real conclusion.

That said. Abaddon is alive and Horus is dead. I imagine that counts for something in the debate.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Until Abaddon reaches Terra, he cannot claim that he has equalled Horus, and until he strikes down the Emperor and takes the throne, he can't claim that he has surpassed Horus.

He has been the Warmaster for longer than Horus, but at the end of the day both of them only ever had one goal in mind. The rest of it is meaningless unless their final goal is achieved.

End of thread.

"Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip "

I think if we break this quote down beyond the obvious "daddy issues" it says a lot about Abaddon as a character.

He's a lot more methodical and meticulous than people give him credit for.

I believe this specific quote is regarding Horus dropping the void shields on the Vengeful Spirit to allow the Emperor to teleport onto the ship so that he could battle him one on one. Obviously we know how it ended up. Horus couldn't allow the Ultramarines or Space Wolves to enter the battle for Terra, it would have ended the Hersey immediately. So he gambled on killing the Emperor face to face to finish the battle for Terra quickly.

I think that Abaddon saw Horus's plan to take the fight to Terra as swiftly as possible as a glaring weakness in his plan and that taking on the Emperor was an unnecessary risk.

I think Abaddon thinks differently than Horus, understands his own limitations and the limitations imposed on those who fall to Chaos. Horus on the other hand I feel was far to ambitious and arrogant for his own good. Abaddon was never a "god" so never though of himself as one, and never made decisions thinking that he was immortal.

This is a key component to Abaddon's psyche, and one that benefits him in the long run. And regardless of what most people think about Abaddon, I think he will be successful in destroying the Imperium.

Horus was certainly "stronger" than Abaddon will ever be. Just look at how their models are portrayed on the tabletop for that. A Primarch is so much more powerful than a Space Marine could ever be, there's really nothing to compare between the two groups.

I do think that ole Abby has a leg up on Horus in the way of strategic thinking though. Horus as a Warmaster only saw things in one way: cut the head off the serpent and then let the body die on its own. That's a big part of why he failed, he wanted to shatter the head of the Imperium and then let the body rot on its own. Abaddon's approach is the opposite. He's poisoned the body and the spirit of the Imperium, and (according to the updated fluff) is only now even considering trying to take Terra. 10,000 years after he became the Warmaster. I don't think either was wrong aside from Horus not understanding that the Emperor was to him what he was to the members of his legion, and that revolting against the Emperor could only end in his defeat for that reason.

The Armless can't surpass anything more cunning than a cooking fire. He's utterly incompetent except for keeping his legion together.

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

Interesting. These were genuine questions as I don't really know anything about Abbadon's lore.

Horus had alot of competition from other primarchs, his drive for terra was out of necessity.

He had them united, but only for so long.
Avaddon has had the greater luxury of time it seems.

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

One could argue he killed Rogal Dorn.

Well, Rogal Dorn possibly killed Rogal Dorn through his foolhardiness, but I guess Abaddon exploited Rogal Dorn's nature that to get Rogal Dorn killed, so in a way it counts!

It will be interesting to see more details on that particular part of the setting! Perhaps RD had a good plan when he decided to try solo a black crusade?

nareik wrote:

Well, Rogal Dorn possibly killed Rogal Dorn through his foolhardiness, but I guess Abaddon exploited Rogal Dorn's nature that to get Rogal Dorn killed, so in a way it counts!

It will be interesting to see more details on that particular part of the setting! Perhaps RD had a good plan when he decided to try solo a black crusade?

I believe the idea was that it was required to hold up the Black Crusade before it did even more damage. How many worlds would have fallen had he not attacked so soon? How many billions would've died?

People talk about how good the Salamanders are for putting civilians ahead of themselves. Why the different feeling for Dorn?

Is it even said that that Black Crusade was one of Abaddon's anyway?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

nareik wrote:

Well, Rogal Dorn possibly killed Rogal Dorn through his foolhardiness, but I guess Abaddon exploited Rogal Dorn's nature that to get Rogal Dorn killed, so in a way it counts!

It will be interesting to see more details on that particular part of the setting! Perhaps RD had a good plan when he decided to try solo a black crusade?

I believe the idea was that it was required to hold up the Black Crusade before it did even more damage. How many worlds would have fallen had he not attacked so soon? How many billions would've died?

People talk about how good the Salamanders are for putting civilians ahead of themselves. Why the different feeling for Dorn?

Is it even said that that Black Crusade was one of Abaddon's anyway?

Not sure, I think it was. I'd like it even more if it was a non-Abaddon crusade!

 snykyninja wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

Interesting. These were genuine questions as I don't really know anything about Abbadon's lore.

I don't remember them ever "kneeling" in the lore or books. Lorgar offered to help him, Magnus refused to meet with him/couldn't be found. Mortarion was willing to help out. Pretty sure Angron made him prove himself in the fighting pits. Don't remember what Fulgrim did. Perturabo and him never met, but the Iron Warriors did agree to help him because it would help them. None of that is exactly what I would call kneeling.

TVTyrant wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

Interesting. These were genuine questions as I don't really know anything about Abbadon's lore.

I don't remember them ever "kneeling" in the lore or books. Lorgar offered to help him, Magnus refused to meet with him/couldn't be found. Mortarion was willing to help out. Pretty sure Angron made him prove himself in the fighting pits. Don't remember what Fulgrim did. Perturabo and him never met, but the Iron Warriors did agree to help him because it would help them. None of that is exactly what I would call kneeling.

He offered Fulgrim a bride. A perfect psyker that could serve as a vessel for Slaanesh to manifest in the material world.

Having not read all of the latest fluff from the past 10 years or so, my initial though is...no. Not at all.

Horus organized a rebellion which spanned systems and involved hundreds of thousands of space marines, millions of traitor guard/dark mechanicum in a lengthy conflict which took him to the very gates of Terra - and was a primarch.

Abaddon organizes and leads large groups of Chaos forces on large raids into the Imperium.

Zero contest.

TVTyrant wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

Interesting. These were genuine questions as I don't really know anything about Abbadon's lore.

I don't remember them ever "kneeling" in the lore or books. Lorgar offered to help him, Magnus refused to meet with him/couldn't be found. Mortarion was willing to help out. Pretty sure Angron made him prove himself in the fighting pits. Don't remember what Fulgrim did. Perturabo and him never met, but the Iron Warriors did agree to help him because it would help them. None of that is exactly what I would call kneeling.

He definitely got Magnus to kneel, the Talon of Horus makes that very clear.

Well that is interesting, as I believe the codex states he has the support of each daemon primarch, except Magnus (I think he courted Ahriman's faction instead).

They both failed to achieve their goal, abbadon on a few occasions. Probably because the gods wanted it to end that way.

 Cleanse_and_burn wrote:

TVTyrant wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 snykyninja wrote:
Has abandon fought any primarchs and won? Has abandon fought the Emperor? And if he did (when the emps was full power or near full power, rather than stuck on the throne) would he have any sort of chance whatsoever?

He and his inner circle forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel. He killed the almost perfect clone of his Father and (possibly) had a hand in killing Dorn. Not a bad run, if you ask me.

Interesting. These were genuine questions as I don't really know anything about Abbadon's lore.

I don't remember them ever "kneeling" in the lore or books. Lorgar offered to help him, Magnus refused to meet with him/couldn't be found. Mortarion was willing to help out. Pretty sure Angron made him prove himself in the fighting pits. Don't remember what Fulgrim did. Perturabo and him never met, but the Iron Warriors did agree to help him because it would help them. None of that is exactly what I would call kneeling.

He definitely got Magnus to kneel, the Talon of Horus makes that very clear.

Fair enough. I'm just saying in the 6th edition Black Legion supplement it makes it very clear that they've never even met, at least not since before the Horus Heresy. Because of the nature of the fluff being basically "believe what you want", I'm gonna go with that since it makes the most sense to me.

TVTyrant wrote:


Perturabo and him never met, but the Iron Warriors did agree to help him because it would help them.

Abbadon would have met Perturabo many times as first captain and mournival. As a daemon primarch, Perturabo opened the warp gate at Cadia for Abbadon's fleet.

Has Abbadon surpassed Horus? The only real answer is no, but he might if the story progresses.

as far as abaddon is concerned, which versions since he has been so retconned that its not even funny. Horus has always gotten close, though how he got close has changed. For much of Abaddon's fluff he tried multiple times and failed. Then they changed it to it's always been his plan to fail for 10k years but this one will work cause planned. either way hes pathetic

Abaddon's fluff in 2nd ed was that he achieved strategic objectives in his crusades. Did he exist before this? is that where the change happened?

In 3.5 and EoT the fluff was also that his previous crusades were preliminary work building up to 'the Big Push'.

Which editions was it that had the initial 12 crusades as failures?

I know 12 was always just a partial success.Was it the Gothic campaign that painted Abaddon as a failure?

nareik wrote:


I know 12 was always just a partial success.Was it the Gothic campaign that painted Abaddon as a failure?

Gothic campaign was a partial victory. He got two of Blackstone Fortresses out intact (presumably he wanted all six).

I've never seen any background to suggest Abaddon was trying to all out conquer the Imperium before the 13th Black Crusade or that he failed in achieving at least some of his objectives.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

nareik wrote:


I know 12 was always just a partial success.Was it the Gothic campaign that painted Abaddon as a failure?

Gothic campaign was a partial victory. He got two of Blackstone Fortresses out intact (presumably he wanted all six).

I've never seen any background to suggest Abaddon was trying to all out conquer the Imperium before the 13th Black Crusade or that he failed in achieving at least some of his objectives.

That must have been the old background at some point, people always say it is? What did 4th/5th have to say on the matter? I think that was the only era I didn't particularly follow 40k? Unless there was anything predating 2nd ed codex?

nareik wrote:
That must have been the old background at some point, people always say it is? What did 4th/5th have to say on the matter? I think that was the only era I didn't particularly follow 40k? Unless there was anything predating 2nd ed codex?

As far as I know it's just people making assumptions that every Black Crusade must have been sent to topple the Imperium. Plus the not conquering Cadia angle I guess.