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A while ago I was writing up a campaign between Tau and scout marines. One of the missions was essentially between scouts and a task force of a single riptide and suits. To add a bit more spice and balance, I added a damage tabled based off of precision shots.
Essentially any wounds caused to a MC that are a result of a precision shot/strike (so a 6 most times, 5's in a couple of cases, and for the like of telion all of his are precision shots) roll on the following table.

1- disoriented - the MC must snapfire
2- Staggered- the MC may only move half distance on all moves next turn
3- Shredded joint- the MC has a permanent -1 modifier to all moves
4- Ruptured Wings- If the MC had Jetpacks and/or wings, the MC loses the ability to use them in any form. If the creature has no wings, or this result has been rolled, count it as a 3
5- Sundered Armor- the MC has a permanent -1 to its armor save
6- Crippled weapon- The MC loses a random weapon.

Since Tyranids are also affected by this, all Tyranid MC's gain the Incredible Constitution USR, which states that any unit with this rule forces the attacking player to roll two dice, instead of one for damage and the player controlling the MC may choose which result occurs.

Any time a MC regains a wound, either form IWND, life leech, etc.,. on a 5+ it can remove one of the results.
Any time a squad of MC's is hit with a precision shot, the shooting player chooses which creature to roll the damage table for.

My attempt here was to allow certain unit types, like scout squads with snipers, to become a form of beast hunters. It would hopefully help tyranids by bringing other MC's in line a little, whilst allow Tyanids to mitigate a lot of that form of damage.

It would also be hilarious to see squads of ratling snipers critically wounding Riptides.

thoughts?

I'd rather just cause multiple wounds with big guns than roll on more tables.

Again, there is no way this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

causes one wound.

Multiple wounds are good for certain weapons, sure. But they're also bland. You either have dead or not dead, there is no diminished strength like there is for almost everything else out there. units lose models, vehicles lose weapons or get immobilized/stunned.

The benefit to being able to disable MC's is that it could create more diverse gameplay situations without significantly over-complicating it. It also allows player to try and capitalize on a beneficial result.

I just feel like it would have more flow than, 'this weapon does d3 wounds against MCs'.

Are you intending this to apply to all wounds inflicted by precision shots, or just unsaved wounds?

One gives MCs some parity with vehicles and their damage table, while the other makes MCs significantly more vulnerable (but only to those who bring a lot of Precision Strike).

Given the quantity of Precision Shots available to almost all armies, it might be worth tying in a precision shot followed by a 6 to wound (meaning you'd need an average of 36 shots from normal snipers, 18 shots for the 5+ precision snipers, and 5 shots from the likes of Telion).

The severity of this table (not quite as bad as the Vehicle table) combined with the complete lack of ways to negate the table (Can't take saves) suggest to me that forcing a roll on the table should be relatively rare (to avoid bogging down the game).

I really like the concept, though. The key is that it needs to be balanced so that people aren't punished for bringing their big centerpiece models, and it needs to be worth the extra layer of complexity.

I'd rather just remove the damage table from vehicles then give MCs one

This feels a bit clunky to me, Vilehydra. Between separating your precision shots out into a different pool, rolling on the chart, and then keeping track of all the effects going on table-wide, this has the potential to add a lot of dice rolling and homework to the game. Personally, I'd kind of prefer to go the opposite direction: Get rid of the vehicle damage table and maybe include a "bloodied" condition for vehicles and MCs sort of kind of along the lines of Sigmar's rules.

So for instance, at the end of a shooting phase in which an MC or vehicle is lowered below half wounds, their controlling player must choose one of the following:

Stunned: No shooting or moving for a turn
Disarmed: A weapon of the enemy's choice is permanently lost.
Crippled: No moving for the rest of the game.

Possibly allow Tank Hunter or Monster hunter to let the enemy choose the result instead of the controlling player.

The end result is:
*No rolling repeatedly on a random damage chart
*Fewer status effects to stack in general (each unit only suffers this damage once per game when they're reduced below half wounds).

I also like the suggestion that dedicated anti-big-thing weapons like krak missiles, melta, etc. inflict multiple wounds.

Now that said, I think your proposed rules could be interesting in the right setting. For instance, I could see using your rules in a modified Kill Team type scenario where one player's swarm of little guys are basically in a boss fight against one big guy, constantly trying to keep him debuffed enough to prevent him from tearing through their lines.

I actually like the concept because it does something for those not always sniping special weapons, if at all.

Maybe on a successful wound, whether successfully saved or not.

Unsaved wounds only ideally, doesn't have much internal consistency otherwise.

As is, its currently a 5/108 chance for a bs4 sniper to get the table against a 3+ Save out in the open. (chance to get precision hit, then wound w/o rending and armour save plus the chance to hit then rend)
A squad of ten scout snipers pushes that to a 1/2 chance of getting the table a turn. Just thought I'd math hammer that out

As for clunkiness, if your rolling precision shots against squads your still going to separate those dice, and if not kill special models, kill ones out in the open or in a position that you don't want them to be.
In terms of tracking the results, this is true. It does it more difficult to keep track. Possibly mitigate this by using different damage results, ones that are just more intuitive to remember.

Also I've enjoyed the damage tables, because again it allows vehicles to be mitigated rather than destroyed, and creates more choices for the player when damage results occur.
Although you where right where this was designed for a lower point skirmish scenario, I still think it could be applied to the whole field. The amount of actual times you roll on the table will be minimal (who fields whole sniper squads). so not too much book keeping.

I hate your table honestly, You pay MUCH more points for MC than you do with Vehicles (In general not all).

I wouldnt want to lose a weapon, Melee MC already are almost impossible to play other than Summoned ones or DE Talos. FMC you see alot of, Im talking about your Basic walking melee ones, these charts would make them impossible to play.

Taking away Armor saves on 3+ and 4+ MC is a hell of a roll this would literally remove them from play.

A chart could work tho, I would rather it be like this

D3:
1) The MC can not run and FMC must land (You would REMOVE the Grounding Rull from the BRB this would tak its place)
2) The MC has is blinded, WS/BS is -1 for the next turn
3) Winded: The MC had the wind knock out of it, it moves -2" this turn, FMC Swooping must move 12" (it remains swooping or the play may glind up to 12")


With that Said, I rather not see a chart for MC.

Wyldhunt wrote:
This feels a bit clunky to me, Vilehydra. Between separating your precision shots out into a different pool, rolling on the chart, and then keeping track of all the effects going on table-wide, this has the potential to add a lot of dice rolling and homework to the game. Personally, I'd kind of prefer to go the opposite direction: Get rid of the vehicle damage table and maybe include a "bloodied" condition for vehicles and MCs sort of kind of along the lines of Sigmar's rules.

So for instance, at the end of a shooting phase in which an MC or vehicle is lowered below half wounds, their controlling player must choose one of the following:

Stunned: No shooting or moving for a turn
Disarmed: A weapon of the enemy's choice is permanently lost.
Crippled: No moving for the rest of the game.

Possibly allow Tank Hunter or Monster hunter to let the enemy choose the result instead of the controlling player.

The end result is:
*No rolling repeatedly on a random damage chart
*Fewer status effects to stack in general (each unit only suffers this damage once per game when they're reduced below half wounds).

I also like the suggestion that dedicated anti-big-thing weapons like krak missiles, melta, etc. inflict multiple wounds.

That's a possibility.

I think the simplest solution is that at a certain percentage of lost Wounds, MCs would start losing their Unit Type Special Rules such as firing two Weapons, Move Through Cover, and Relentless. Call it the "Clumsy When Wounded" rule. As they receive such amount of damage, they start getting clumsy, so not able to focus two Weapons on a target, stumbling around Terrain instead of tearing through it, and not being able to reliably control heavier Weapons. Think of all those dragon fights we see in media which shows degrading performance after they've taken some strong hits. It even allows for the affect of multi-Wound Weapons to have an impact.

But the decision on this is based a lot on how much housekeeping and rolling you want to get involved. AoS' system is rather elegant, but it requires a bit of housekeeping due to how many Wounds each Monster has and the size of the table they rely on to represent it.

That's why I gave nid's some bonuses against the charts. Trying to think of a non-nid, non-flying, melee MC. Beyond the aforementioned Talos and can't think of anything. Although it's late so I may be missing something.

As is the charts are relatively rare, a unit must have precision strike or shot, then must make a to hit roll of 6, and then cause on unsaved wound, which is a 5/108 chance for scouts, and even worse if your in cover (because rending is now not as good).

Your right that vehicles are generally cheaper, but remember. They don't have saves, They get glanced to death. They can be instantly killed and suffer permanent degradation. I even gave MC's a chance to recover from such damage.

I feel this is far from extreme, and at the same time better then temporary systems because that is a lot of book keeping.

Vilehydra wrote:
That's why I gave nid's some bonuses against the charts. Trying to think of a non-nid, non-flying, melee MC. Beyond the aforementioned Talos and can't think of anything. Although it's late so I may be missing something.

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, maybe? (specifically the Keeper of Secrets, Unclean One, and Wingless Princes, but I guess Skarbrand's here, too)

 Charistoph wrote:

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, maybe? (specifically the Keeper of Secrets, Unclean One, and Wingless Princes, but I guess Skarbrand's here, too)

I've never seen a DP without wings, GUO is insanely tanky though, he doesn't even care about armor saves. Your right on the KoS and Skarbrand though. I feel like they're edge cases. Invuln saves do help mitigate rending rounds, and if they have warp forged armor (dunno if they can) they are still unlikely to be slowed down.

Vilehydra wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, maybe? (specifically the Keeper of Secrets, Unclean One, and Wingless Princes, but I guess Skarbrand's here, too)

I've never seen a DP without wings, GUO is insanely tanky though, he doesn't even care about armor saves. Your right on the KoS and Skarbrand though. I feel like they're edge cases. Invuln saves do help mitigate rending rounds, and if they have warp forged armor (dunno if they can) they are still unlikely to be slowed down.

Greaters daemons can't just buy warp forged armour, they have to randomly roll it from a greater reward

Skarband has a 3+, but the only way for a KoS to get one is to pay 20-40 points to get 1-2 rolls on a D6 table that has an option for a 3+ armour save.

The reason you never see a DP without wings is because they are terrible without them.

The only other non-flying, non-nid, melee MC I can think of is FW Spined Chaos Beast and Eldar Wraithlord & Wraithseer. The Spined Chaos Beast is basically a stronger & tougher but less-skilled naked Daemon Prince without any good options (like armour).

"You pay MUCH more points for MC than you do with Vehicles (In general not all). "

And yet, not nearly enough.

" You either have dead or not dead,"

Yes, and I prefer very dead.

I think a damage table for both MCs and Vehicles would be good, but make it simple, like a D3 table.

For example:

1 - Shaken - Vehicle or MC must snap-fire. Further Shaken results are Stunned instead
2 - Weapon Destroyed
3 - Immobilized
4 - Critical damage - in addition to the wound/HP that prompted the roll on this chart, the Vehicle or MC takes an additional D3 wounds or HPs with no saves possible

AP1 adds 1 to this chart

Alternately, we can do away with charts altogether and say that AP1 weapons do D3 wounds/HPs for each unsaved.

-

Vilehydra wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, maybe? (specifically the Keeper of Secrets, Unclean One, and Wingless Princes, but I guess Skarbrand's here, too)

I've never seen a DP without wings, GUO is insanely tanky though, he doesn't even care about armor saves. Your right on the KoS and Skarbrand though. I feel like they're edge cases. Invuln saves do help mitigate rending rounds, and if they have warp forged armor (dunno if they can) they are still unlikely to be slowed down.

Daemon Princes do not come with Wings, which is why I pointed them out. The fact that the GUO doesn't care about Armor Saves is irrelevant to the point, I was simply pointing out that they exist as a portion of non-Nid MC's without Wings.

And technically DPs do not buy "wings", but rather purchase "Daemonic Flight" which is most easily represented with wings, but does not have to. For example, my Slaanesh DP is not modeled with wings at all, but has long lean legs and uses Slaaneshi speed, grace and a pinch of ethereal "hovering" to represent flight.
Making a rule that targets "wings" on an DP is like making a rule that targets a Space Marine's "Hand-held Rapid-firing Rocket launcher". By name, it is a Bolter/ Bolt gun, so that rule would have no effect RAW

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 Galef wrote:
And technically DPs do not buy "wings", but rather purchase "Daemonic Flight" which is most easily represented with wings, but does not have to. For example, my Slaanesh DP is not modeled with wings at all, but has long lean legs and uses Slaaneshi speed, grace and a pinch of ethereal "hovering" to represent flight.
Making a rule that targets "wings" on an DP is like making a rule that targets a Space Marine's "Hand-held Rapid-firing Rocket launcher". By name, it is a Bolter/ Bolt gun, so that rule would have no effect RAW

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That's why it's just a concept. This problem could easily be fixed by changing it to 'any Jump, jetpack, or swooping MC may now only walk as normal'. or something along those lines. That point seems kind of nitpicky Although looking at that rule, I'd also add an exception for MC's that can only fly, like the harpy.