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First and foremost, I suggest any Necron fan to read the discussions in 'Necrons do have Souls' in the link below; it's a compelling read and certainly makes one question their own perspectives. I really must applaud Ynnead and Frozen Ocean.
Besides that, reading everything they talked about and skimming through the Newcron lore (Again) made me question some aspects about them. Personally, Orks was the race that I fell in love with in Dawn of War and Necrons dragged me into the entirety of the 40K realm. That said, I can't help feel a there's been too many missed opportunities with them, especially after reading that thread. So, here I am after a long hiatus with a few of my own idea's regarding their motivations, personal agenda's, and general stance within the universe.
Mind you, these are only idea's but I do encourage others to join in on the fun. It'll be a nifty thread that could, if possible, shine line on all the potential a race like the Necron has and how much more can be done with them- It can be a fan collaboration.
I'll try to update this first post every few days to include other fans idea's and aspirations for the Necron's.
Changing Their Motivation
Spoiler:
After reading that thread and seeing the obvious lack of creativity; I'm drawing the base of my inspiration from their own previous established history regarding the War in Heaven and the discussions relating tot he speculation of their souls.
Now, I realize circling idea's as to their motivation usually leads into a collision with another races motive, which is completely understandable. So, they can't be Skynet cause that's a metal version of Tyranids and harvesting bodies for whatever reason puts them along the lines of Dark Eldar, and salvaging the dead puts them up there close behind Eldar. What I'm thinking is combining the three motives... Kinda?
We know Necrontyr (Or those who know their lore) were a race cursed from the very beginning. From my understanding, their star was a malevolent prick cursing them with all sorts of ill-gotten problems. Crazy as it sounds, death was such a common occurrence that their very architecture transformed into essentially towering graves. It was made in preparation for the dead and others to take their place. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm at least close to the mark. )
The immortal Old Ones came mozying along the front porch one day, they asked for immortality, basically flipped them the bird, and all hell broke loose. Necrontyr were eventually forced back into home planet to live out their days until the C'tan basically enslaved them (To the best of their ability.) Betrayal happened, C'tan were wiped off the map (Mostly), long-ass catnap, and now they're waking up again... But not shackled.
You see, prior to the Biotransferance (Spelling?) they were quite unified if not for civil turmoil and bitter hatred towards the Old Ones. They came together fighting all sorts of diseases and plagues to further their own existence, so they wouldn't fade into nothingness... Err, that's how I like to perceive it. Since the C'tan took that all away, my idea was recapturing that unity but not just that but more.
Humor me hear but lets come to a consencess that Necron's do have souls, a fragment that stuck in an eternity of agony. This agony doesn't have a beginning or end, it's just always been. Even as Necrontyr, they've known the futility life brings them. Ever since there star showered its molecular corroding radiation upon their world(s) and the C'tan trapped them within a single persisting moment of unending terror. The C'tan consistently feed upon the trapped Necrontyr souls constantly experiencing that single moment while marching them off into grueling wars of galactic proportion. This said; their entire existence has been agonizing on a level neither human or Eldar can comprehend. While the Eldar are effectively going extinct their suffering or sorrow does not match those of the Necron...
With all that said, they awaken not to suffer but to opportunity. Healthy, flourishing life forms expand across the galactic planes that is the Milky Way; all fresh and vibrant, ready to live and kill, do whatever it takes to see another day. Necrontyr, they never had not. Maybe fleeting moments but never to the extent that expressed throughout the galaxy around them. Where their former masters, the C'tan, do not leash them, no Old Ones to slay them, their previous home holds opportunity. After millions, tens of millions of years of suffering, a flicker of hope finally shines upon them... Every living entity.
I read quite often that same question 'Why are they harvesting humans?' and 'They're basically metal Tyranid.' Well, maybe there's more to it. The Necron's, who've been stripped of almost every pleasantry life offers other races see's an opportunity to not only grant themselves that on a personal level but special level. The Flayed Ones are entirely insane, they just want to live again. They're so desperate to feel, to breath, anything they're devoid of that they'll literately where the skin of other species and pretend to be alive again.
So, this isn't about the sole purpose of galactic genocide, harvesting emotions, none of that but fighting for what they never had and could never experience. Their former royal leaders, who were responsible for their subjects failed them miserably and only the Silent King see's this. Now with the Tyranid's coming to devour the Milky Way entirely, their last chance to a experience an existent barely conceivable in their wildest dreams is in danger. So, they must kill, exterminate, and eradicate all Tyranid existence so this feigning dream of life doesn't fade away and their agony become eternal again...
That's my big old idea to help tie the old and newcrons together.... Kinda. Feel free to pokes holes and call the your local Triarch on me but I hope you all enjoyed my non-sense regardless.
I look forward to reading your own idea's but I must be off to bed. I'll proof read my stuff later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 06:21:36
2016/10/29 09:50:46
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
First off thankyou! I'm glad you enjoyed reading my ramblings, and Frozen Ocean and all the others have contributed fantastically to that thread
I really like your ideas, they make a ton more sense than the official fluff, and give them a really nice nuance that successfully steers away from the other races' motivations (something every time I've failed at every time I try to put it down in words). Perfect!
In summary, would you agree that the motivation of your Necrons is that they are both curious* and desperate to know what it is like to feel again. It adds a welcome hint of bitterness. That they want what has always been denied to them, back to the very start of their race, and has shaped their entire existence. It's rooted in their origins, and makes perfect sense.
*Not curious like you or I would be curious about what's written in a new codex. Curious like a cat that has caught a mouse. Curious like a mad scientist in the terminal days of an incurable illness who has just stumbled upon something that could, just possibly, be his salvation.
Benny Badmen wrote: The Necron's, who've been stripped of almost every pleasantry life offers other races see's an opportunity to not only grant themselves that on a personal level but special level. The Flayed Ones are entirely insane, they just want to live again. They're so desperate to feel, to breath, anything they're devoid of that they'll literately where the skin of other species and pretend to be alive again.
I really like that idea of Flayed Ones. Harkens back to the original idea of Flayed Ones being insane because they were conscious through their sleep. 'They just want to live again' sounds so, maddeningly desperate, that I can see it justifying their behaviour.
My latest thought is that it's not readily apparent, or even confirmed, that the consciousness of Necrons still remains. It's only echoes that cannot be explained through their coding.
I had the idea of a piece in the codex (not a big one, just a sort of footnote that people might gloss over) about the diary of a mad Cryptek.
The questions these echoes raise is driving him insane. Why do they always, always insist on screaming when they're cut down in battle? Why is it that every so often, a warrior pauses at its reflection for no tactical benefit? Could it be that our people are still trapped in their sarcophagi, or are echoes sometimes just echoes.
He then goes on to express his disdain for the petty squabbling of the Necron Lords, saying that they're caught in the loop of the destructive thinking that led to the bio-transference, himself vowing to work against them and resurrect his people.
That would open the doors for a whole raft of new things
1. The reunification of the Necron forces (as in, they were never a divided force after all. They've just got lords at the top that are as petty and vain in death as they were in live)
2. A conspiracy theory at the heart of Necron politics
3. Alongside the pettyness of the Lords, a justification for intra-faction battles
4. The faintest of glimmers of hope, rooted in the concept that for all their science, Necrons do not understand the soul (fitting well into the 'faith isn't just make-believe' theme of 40k)
Lastly, a thought I've literally just come up with.
I've always struggled with the concept of the short lifespan of the Necrontyr being caused by solar radiation.
The solution is forehead-smackingly obvious for a space-faring race. Move to a different sun.
What if it wasn't the sun that was causing their sickness, but the byproducts of the C'Tan feeding on it.
How's this?
The Necrontyr lived on their world, and death surrounded them. Permeated their culture. The corrosive energies released by the Star Vampires native to their sun caused a spontaneous, random and fatal illness that Necrontyr science, advanced though it was, was unable to prevent.
They tried to flee their world, theorising that another sun may be more hospitable. The C'Tan, unable to traverse the void between stars themselves, latched onto the plasma drives of their starships. Wherever they went, the plague of the star vampires was spread.
It was through the intense study of their suns that they first identified a pattern in the solar radiation. What looked curiously like brainwaves was identified, and as their understanding grew, first contact was made.
I like the idea that, even in their necrodermis shells, the C'Tan are unable to traverse the void between stars. They were endemic to the Necrontyr solar system, but spread alongside them by hitching rides on their starship drives.
It would explain why the C'Tan needed the Necrons at all. They were the method by which they could reach the universe. Otherwise, they're trapped on a sun that will eventually die. It would also get rid of the inconsistency whereby beings who are anathema to the warp, and it to them, can feed on souls. It is, and always was, energy from stars they feed on. Necrontyr were just the delivery mechanism, and when the Old Ones tried to destroy that delivery mechanism and limit their travel, the C'Tan declared war on them.
It also opens the possibility for there still to be C'Tan out there, drifting inert in the void between stars. Come too close to one and it could hitch onto your plasma drive and be brought back to the system you're on.
It's not just the tides of the warp that has sharks.
This works best if you reinvent the C'Tan entirely. They're not 'gods of realspace, as powerful in reality as the Chaos Gods are in the warp'. Causes too many p*ssing contests with Chaos fans, and I think they should keep just the one set of Lovecraftian entities in the universe (the Tyranid hivemind is allowed because it's a Lovecraftian entity from another universe).
Instead, the C'Tan are a plague. Powerful, certainly, but nowhere near the all-powerful beings they're portrayed to be. What they are is numerous. There were thousands upon thousands of them feeding on the Necrontyr sun, and they were spread around the universe wherever the Necrontyr went. After the War in Heaven, the Necrons rebelled and tried to wipe out the C'Tan. Hunting them to the edges of the universe and destroying or enslaving them.
However, their plan was not completed. The rise of the first empires of the Eldar and the unchecked spread of the Orks halted their progress through the galaxy. There were corners of the universe that they could not reach. Stars that they could not cleanse.
You can keep the idea that The Deceiver/Cegorach tricked the Outsider into eating other C'Tan, driving it insane, but I think there's mileage in keeping the possibility of there being many more (less powerful) C'Tan still hiding out there.
You could open up the gates for people to convert their own C'Tan, create backgrounds for new C'Tan, or even release new official C'Tan by GW.
Finally, you make Star Vampires scary again. They're not sharded pokemon versions of their once godlike selves. They're a plague. An intelligent sickness that spreads between stars, causing death wherever it goes.
All great stuff from Ynneadwraith there; I think everything here more or less fits together nicely.
However, I will say that the life and consciousness of each Necron varies from class to class. Your typical Necron Warriors and Destroyers have lost all identity and "soul" - they're just slaves to the Lords and Overlords of the Dynasty, where once they were slaves to the C'tan. Immortals and above however will be holding onto some level of self awareness and consciousness of their previous selves - not a lot of it, but enough.
I would say overall that "changing their motivation" is both not entirely necessary to achieve what you see in the Necrontyr, but will also never apply fully to all Necrons. This kind of motivation to march the Necron armies forth in the name of returning to their true existence again is probably a motivation that I'd believe the Silent King to have anyway, as a being who both needs to answer to his crimes against his race, while also wanting his race to become what it was again. Many Lords and Overlords may share the same feelings, but there are definitely plenty who won't - ones who are crippled by greed, or who take the absence of the Silent King as an opportunity to perhaps rule the Necrons for themselves, not caring about the fact that their race is merely a shadow of what it once was.
I think this idea can work itself into the current Necron lore: if written well enough, it will weave itself into the canonical lore very well
G.A
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint!
2016/10/29 10:56:15
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
General Annoyance wrote: All great stuff from Ynneadwraith there; I think everything here more or less fits together nicely.
However, I will say that the life and consciousness of each Necron varies from class to class. Your typical Necron Warriors and Destroyers have lost all identity and "soul" - they're just slaves to the Lords and Overlords of the Dynasty, where once they were slaves to the C'tan. Immortals and above however will be holding onto some level of self awareness and consciousness of their previous selves - not a lot of it, but enough.
I would say overall that "changing their motivation" is both not entirely necessary to achieve what you see in the Necrontyr, but will also never apply fully to all Necrons. This kind of motivation to march the Necron armies forth in the name of returning to their true existence again is probably a motivation that I'd believe the Silent King to have anyway, as a being who both needs to answer to his crimes against his race, while also wanting his race to become what it was again. Many Lords and Overlords may share the same feelings, but there are definitely plenty who won't - ones who are crippled by greed, or who take the absence of the Silent King as an opportunity to perhaps rule the Necrons for themselves, not caring about the fact that their race is merely a shadow of what it once was.
I think this idea can work itself into the current Necron lore: if written well enough, it will weave itself into the canonical lore very well
G.A
Thanks
Yeah it definitely fits into the existing Necron lore fine enough, which I think is a pre-requisite for rewriting stuff and retconning to stop it seeming ham-fisted.
The issues with the existing lore remain though. In 40k, the guy at the top is never a good guy. Ever. You get your Salamanders, and your Space Wolves fighting the Inquisition, and your Celestial Lions and suchlike. They're never at the top though. The Silent King breaks that.
Furthermore, even if that was the case in the 40k universe, I don't think anything of the Necrons background or intention fits with a 'good guy at the top, but evil people below' structure. They're an evil race. Having a good guy at the top makes them a 'good' race with a few dissenters.
I like that in the official fluff they've made it so that the higher echelons have retained some level of consciousness, but making the warriors mindless drone is missing a trick I think.
I like to think that the C'Tan, lacking any sort of understanding of the immaterium, did not account for the fact that something of the people the Necrontyr were would linger on even though they've tried to wipe them clean.
They could have made provision for the Lords and Immortals to retain a degree of their consciousness, hence why they're more aware than the warriors, but there's ghosts in the machine that cannot be explained at the warrior level. It just opens up the gates for a whole host of new things that you could do with the Necrons.
It's just too good of an opportunity to miss embedding at the core level in the Necron fluff.
You open up the possibilities for the Necrons to be a united evil faction, with Lords and Overlords at the top who sacrificed their entire species to ensure that they, alone, escaped the clutches of death. The Lords are, above everything else, selfish. Then, you could bring in a small minority of Necrons who have spotted these ghosts in the machine, and are either trying to expunge them or work in secret to resurrect their people (remember, Crypteks were living people once. Their families might be trapped somewhere in those metal tombs).
Doing it that way has the evil people at the top (so it should be, they were the ones that sacrifices their species). The right way for an evil race to be structured.
You don't need to split the dynasties into squabbling petty kingdoms to introduce some political intrigue into the faction, or to provide some mechanism to prevent the Necrons from roflstomping the whole of the galaxy (one of the main, most irritating things with the current fluff is that this is a weak official explanation). One of the things that's holding them back, along with not being fully woken up yet, is that their machines are rebelling against them because of things even they don't understand.
Again, that fits with one of the big themes of 40k: technological advance without temperance with the spiritual is a bad thing. The Fall of the Eldar and the Men of Iron follow this, and part of the point of the Tau is that they haven't learnt this yet. History is cyclical, and including the Necrons in that as well is a good thing for the cohesiveness of the fluff of 40k as a whole.
Having that explicitly insinuated in the Necron Codex I believe would be a really positive thing.
"At the time of biotransferrence (the conversion of the mortal Necrontyr into the mechanical Necrons), there were not enough resources to allow every member of the Necrontyr species to inhabit strong, intelligent bodies. As such, the leaders and nobles of Necron society received highly-advanced bodies, physically powerful and capable of retaining every nuance of their personalities. Their most trusted servants (Such as the Lychguards), received new bodies of similar quality. Soldiers received bodies that were merely adequate. The everyday citizens of Necrontyr society received the leftovers; comparatively primitive bodies that almost served as prisons: these, now the Necron Warriors, are incapable of feeling almost all emotion, and retain little sentience. It was a given that the civilian necrontyr would not receive the same care as their betters during biotransferrence, but it is possible that this mental degradation was intentional: all the better for the nobles to command their servants and receive total, unconditional loyalty."
That would suggest one of two things about why the Warriors are so cold and emotionless - there wasn't time and/or the resources to make them like the higher classes, or it was a deliberate means to enslave them to their new masters.
Whichever way you see it, even the higher ups suffered, as 60 million years did its toll to their new bodies after they sealed themselves in their Tomb Worlds. Even the Lords and Overlords struggle to find all of their past self.
It is quite easy to see the Necrons as an evil faction, and they were under the Silent King's directive. But seeing Szarekh show remorse about what he did signifies that the Necrontyr are not inherently evil, like the Forces of Chaos are.
That being said, what they're doing now is pretty bad, with the Overlords reclaiming their empires by whatever means they see fit, exterminating anything in their path.
Unification of the Necrons is returning, however, with the return of the Silent King and the Triarch Praetorians once again pledging their allegiance to him to unite the Necrons against the Tyranids. I think this unification would be a mix of Dynasties welcoming Szarekh and ones who reject him, either out of greed or by realising what he did. They'll either be abandoned or crushed by the Silent King methinks.
It would certainly be an interesting set of events, were it ever to happen. Thing is, I would personally have thought that this whole subject matter was fairly easy to interpret from Necron lore, at least in theory. I think you just need to be careful when you do put pen to paper with these theories in mind; while almost all the races in 40k can be interpreted in different ways, there is always the thin line between something being believable in a fan story and something that is not.
G.A
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 11:32:02
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint!
2016/10/29 17:16:34
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
The solution is forehead-smackingly obvious for a space-faring race. Move to a different sun.
What if it wasn't the sun that was causing their sickness, but the byproducts of the C'Tan feeding on it.
I think the biggest issue with this reimagining is that there would need to be an insane number of C'Tan (one for every single Necrontyr ship), and it brings many questions about the physical nature of the C'Tan themselves. How could they not be noticed? More importantly, what could they possibly do to a star to make a civilization as advanced as the Necrontyr feel any ill effects? No amount of radiation should touch them. Whatever magic afflictions their stars cause shouldn't matter. As soon as they realize that stars are the issue they should be able to move away from stars entirely. They have the technology to be a completely space based race. That's not even thinking about genetic engineering.
The Necrontyr are too advanced for anything health related to be a major issue for them. Genetically speaking, it's not that difficult to make something biologically immortal; the Imperium does it, and there are even species on Earth today that are technically biologically immortal. It is true that Necrontyr genetics may be quite a different beast and have all sorts of difficulties in that regard, on a structural level, but there is still the possibility that they could have possessed the technology for eliminating any harmful effects to their health from anything.
I think if we want to reimagine the Necrontyr, the best place to do it is with their relationship with the Old Ones. This aspect of the lore is a glossed over mess that doesn't make any sense. Insanely advanced empires do not go to war with superior foes because they wouldn't share their toys. This is purely nonsensical. Maybe the Necrontyr are an insanely petty and irrational race, in general, but I'd hazard a guess that there is more to this. If we really think about the Necrontyr, they are remarkably similar to most of the Old One's creations: bipedal, bilateral symmetry, standard Earth template body structure (head, arms, legs, etc). I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the Necrontyr are one of the races seeded by the Old Ones. This dynamic changes the relationship entirely. Instead of a random encounter, this is the Necrontyr looking towards their creators and asking for help. This is the Necrontyr asking, "Why did you create us to be so fragile when you are so robust? Why did you create us with no method of manipulating the warp?" and most importantly, "Will you help us now that we are reunited?" The answer they got was shocking and unreasonable; In their minds, they were created to suffer for the callous amusement of fickle gods.
But we still have to explain why the Necrontyr were unable to cope with their numerous issues despite being so technologically advanced. I think the only real answer is warp predation. We've never heard anything about Necrontyr psykers, but we have heard about them having souls. This inherently leaves them vulnerable to creatures of the warp. Even if their warp presence was minimal, with their empire being potentially quite vast, they may have had enough collective power to establish a warp deity capable of inflicting them with physical ailments. The Necrontyr may have been psychologically scarred from the experience of their societies dealing with the various health issues that plagued them. They could be very much like humans in the fact that they evolved to become too intelligent too quickly, before evolution could iron out all the kinks; this left them in a stage where they could easily reproduce, but long and healthy life past a certain point eluded them. They took that racial trauma with them to the stars, and as their numbers grew so did the power of their warp deity. This could be imagined as one of the eternal aspects of Nurgle or however you want to spin it, similar to the way Khaine is the Eldar aspect of Khorne. Their physical frailty may have been completely out of their hands, and no matter how technologically advanced they became, they could not escape their fate. They were obsessed with death long before they left their home system, so it's probably pretty likely that they had some vision of the afterlife.
That leads us to the Old Ones. The reason the Necrontyr might be quite upset with the Old Ones is the newly revealed power of the warp. Magic was literally the cause and solution to their problem, and magic was the one thing they did not possess, the one thing their creators did not grant them.
I personally think that all thought within the 40k universe is a generator of warp energy, and the physical structures that allow thought create a natural pool of warp energy around themselves; this is what we understand as the soul in 40k. With that being said, I do believe that all Necrons probably have a soul, in the same way that a simple AI might have a soul; it might be incredibly miniscule, but it is still technically there. The shift from their natural bodies to necrodermis was probably a fairly radical transition that left quite the cultural gap to be filled. No longer fearing death probably had a profound effect on their psyche: A literal numbing of emotion caused by a surreal form of sensory deprivation (to a certain extent) and the ejection of millennia of cultural development. I don't approve of powerful emotions being at work. To me emotions equate to warp energy, and that is not their M.O. . Insanity on the other hand, there is plenty of room for that. The inability to cope with eternity and the imperfect nature of a synthetic body hosting a quite limited mind could easily account for such insanity and not produce intense emotions.
The problem with the necrontyr being created by the old ones though is that it basically makes the setting boil down to "Old Ones did everything m'kay"
I rather liked how there was a race as old as the Old Ones in the setting.
What it could be is that the Necrontyr's sun wasn't always so malignant, and it became that way due to Old One experimentation with the warp. They could not have gotten it right the first time around, and there are bound to have been failed attempts that damaged the galaxy. It would also have explained how the necrontyr could have been on a world that cruel to them without adapting; their world wasn't like that to begin with, and as such they did not evolve the necessary means of survival.
The destruction of their ecosystem and way of life would explain their resentment towards the Old Ones, as well as their enmity towards the warp; they would no doubt see warp manipulation as a perversion of the universe's natural order, that brings only ruin.
That said, the concept of the necrontyr being something of a failed and abandoned creation who resented their creators is a good one, and would explain why they were so willing to make a pact with the Star Gods; don't like your god? Find a new one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 20:49:12
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2016/10/29 22:59:09
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
"At the time of biotransferrence (the conversion of the mortal Necrontyr into the mechanical Necrons), there were not enough resources to allow every member of the Necrontyr species to inhabit strong, intelligent bodies. As such, the leaders and nobles of Necron society received highly-advanced bodies, physically powerful and capable of retaining every nuance of their personalities. Their most trusted servants (Such as the Lychguards), received new bodies of similar quality. Soldiers received bodies that were merely adequate. The everyday citizens of Necrontyr society received the leftovers; comparatively primitive bodies that almost served as prisons: these, now the Necron Warriors, are incapable of feeling almost all emotion, and retain little sentience. It was a given that the civilian necrontyr would not receive the same care as their betters during biotransferrence, but it is possible that this mental degradation was intentional: all the better for the nobles to command their servants and receive total, unconditional loyalty."
That would suggest one of two things about why the Warriors are so cold and emotionless - there wasn't time and/or the resources to make them like the higher classes, or it was a deliberate means to enslave them to their new masters.
Whichever way you see it, even the higher ups suffered, as 60 million years did its toll to their new bodies after they sealed themselves in their Tomb Worlds. Even the Lords and Overlords struggle to find all of their past self.
Yeah I like the idea that it was a deliberate ploy by the Necron higher-ups to wipe their servants to make them more obedient. It seems to make a lot more sense than the 'not enough resources' argument which is odd given that Necron tech is more than capable of providing them with a post-scarcity level economy.
General Annoyance wrote: It is quite easy to see the Necrons as an evil faction, and they were under the Silent King's directive. But seeing Szarekh show remorse about what he did signifies that the Necrontyr are not inherently evil, like the Forces of Chaos are.
That being said, what they're doing now is pretty bad, with the Overlords reclaiming their empires by whatever means they see fit, exterminating anything in their path.
The thing is, is this is 40k and that level of evilness doesn't quite cut the mustard.
In the vast majority of other settings, the Tau would be a dystopian authoritarian propaganda state that's easily the most evil faction. In 40k, they're definitely the least overtly evil faction, and were criticised for a long time for being too nice (personally, that myth is dispelled for me. Half of what you hear about the Tau is propaganda).
Ruthlessly reclaiming your empire, exterminating all in your path is par for the course. Every single faction, at every shade of morally grey, is doing this. If you want to have an evil faction in 40k you have to go the extra mile.
The Dark Eldar enslave and torture other living beings to replenish their souls, and have been doing it long enough that they actively enjoy it.
The Chaos Gods are Lovecraftian entities of unimaginable intellect that toy with our lives and bestow horrific mutations on their faithful while subjecting your immortal soul to unimaginable tortures.
The Tyranids are an extra-galactic plague of unfathomable proportions that strips the biomass of galaxies to feed itself, leaving nothing but bare rock and dead worlds in its wake.
Against that, the Necrons' 'we quite fancy having our old empire back' is far too Craftworld Eldar of a motivation for a race that's supposed to be evil.
General Annoyance wrote: Unification of the Necrons is returning, however, with the return of the Silent King and the Triarch Praetorians once again pledging their allegiance to him to unite the Necrons against the Tyranids. I think this unification would be a mix of Dynasties welcoming Szarekh and ones who reject him, either out of greed or by realising what he did. They'll either be abandoned or crushed by the Silent King methinks.
I really, really struggle with why the Necrons in their current iteration would ever bother fighting the Tyranids. If I was an immortal undead robot, Tyranids would be something that happened to other people.
Uniting your faction to face down the galaxy's biggest threat is not something that should be on an evil faction's resume unless there's a solid gold reason for it to be there.
If I was a Necron Lord, I wouldn't give a flying monkeys what happened to the other squishies that had sprung up in the galaxy while I was sleeping. Not my problem.
It would certainly be an interesting set of events, were it ever to happen. Thing is, I would personally have thought that this whole subject matter was fairly easy to interpret from Necron lore, at least in theory. I think you just need to be careful when you do put pen to paper with these theories in mind; while almost all the races in 40k can be interpreted in different ways, there is always the thin line between something being believable in a fan story and something that is not.
G.A
100% agreed on the warning to keep it believable. That's the main issue that I have with the current Necron fluff. It just goes too far for me to be able to suspend my disbelief with it. There's too many logical leaps without adequate explanation for me.
I think the biggest issue with this reimagining is that there would need to be an insane number of C'Tan (one for every single Necrontyr ship), and it brings many questions about the physical nature of the C'Tan themselves. How could they not be noticed? More importantly, what could they possibly do to a star to make a civilization as advanced as the Necrontyr feel any ill effects? No amount of radiation should touch them. Whatever magic afflictions their stars cause shouldn't matter. As soon as they realize that stars are the issue they should be able to move away from stars entirely. They have the technology to be a completely space based race. That's not even thinking about genetic engineering.
What's so insane about there being thousands of C'Tan? Bear in mind that these aren't the all-powerful gods of the material realm style C'Tan. They're powerful, yes, but that's it. No problem at all with there being lots of them.
If you're looking to explain why there aren't loads of C'Tan dossing around the present-day 40k universe, then the stories of the Outsider eating loads of them and the Necrons hunting down the rest after the War in Heaven (or did they? Dun dun duuuuuh) solves that for me.
Regards the questions about the physical nature of the C'Tan, and what they could possibly do to a star to make a technologically advanced civilisation terminally ill, I'm happy to leave those questions unanswered. Most codexes have big questions like this left up to the speculation of the reader, but I feel like 'malevolent energies released by Star Vampires feeding on your sun' is 100% more believable than 'err, the Necrontyr were just short-lived because that's how they were'. Especially given how advanced they were.
The statement 'no amount of radiation should touch them' is a pivotal one.
I imagine that's what countless, utterly desperate Necrontyr scientists were asking themselves.
The point of the C'Tan as a plague that followed the Necrontyr is that they were unaware it was happening. It's a big theme of 40k for technologically advanced societies to be blind to one or more areas of study.
The Necrontyr were advanced, but they weren't all-knowing (or at least, I refuse to believe the current ludicrous level of understanding they have because having them be that advanced breaks the balance of the 40k universe).
IdleAltruism wrote: The Necrontyr are too advanced for anything health related to be a major issue for them. Genetically speaking, it's not that difficult to make something biologically immortal; the Imperium does it, and there are even species on Earth today that are technically biologically immortal. It is true that Necrontyr genetics may be quite a different beast and have all sorts of difficulties in that regard, on a structural level, but there is still the possibility that they could have possessed the technology for eliminating any harmful effects to their health from anything.
Yeah that's a major leap of faith in the Necron fluff that I can't get past, and what I was trying to address with the baleful C'Tan energies thing.
IdleAltruism wrote: If we really think about the Necrontyr, they are remarkably similar to most of the Old One's creations: bipedal, bilateral symmetry, standard Earth template body structure (head, arms, legs, etc). I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the Necrontyr are one of the races seeded by the Old Ones. This dynamic changes the relationship entirely. Instead of a random encounter, this is the Necrontyr looking towards their creators and asking for help. This is the Necrontyr asking, "Why did you create us to be so fragile when you are so robust? Why did you create us with no method of manipulating the warp?" and most importantly, "Will you help us now that we are reunited?" The answer they got was shocking and unreasonable; In their minds, they were created to suffer for the callous amusement of fickle gods.
This. This is pure, unadulterated gold.
It sets up so much of the history so well, and plays perfectly into the enmity between the Necrons and the Eldar. Suddenly, the Eldar are the favoured child and the Necrontyr neglected in favour of them. The Eldar were created with lifespans longer than a thousand Necrontyr, and in perfect health. Suddenly, you can no longer take the myths of Eldar pre-history at face value. Their account of the War in Heaven is written from the side of the victor, and has been twisted through the years.
New favourite piece of headcanon.
IdleAltruism wrote: But we still have to explain why the Necrontyr were unable to cope with their numerous issues despite being so technologically advanced. I think the only real answer is warp predation. We've never heard anything about Necrontyr psykers, but we have heard about them having souls. This inherently leaves them vulnerable to creatures of the warp. Even if their warp presence was minimal, with their empire being potentially quite vast, they may have had enough collective power to establish a warp deity capable of inflicting them with physical ailments. The Necrontyr may have been psychologically scarred from the experience of their societies dealing with the various health issues that plagued them. They could be very much like humans in the fact that they evolved to become too intelligent too quickly, before evolution could iron out all the kinks; this left them in a stage where they could easily reproduce, but long and healthy life past a certain point eluded them. They took that racial trauma with them to the stars, and as their numbers grew so did the power of their warp deity. This could be imagined as one of the eternal aspects of Nurgle or however you want to spin it, similar to the way Khaine is the Eldar aspect of Khorne. Their physical frailty may have been completely out of their hands, and no matter how technologically advanced they became, they could not escape their fate. They were obsessed with death long before they left their home system, so it's probably pretty likely that they had some vision of the afterlife.
In isolation, I like the concept of the Necrons forming a war deity, and the concept of it being malevolent due to the Necron's self-loathing of their sickly bodies is great, but I feel like it's ground that's been trodden too many times by the other factions of the universe. The Eldar's whole shtick is that they brought about their destruction through birthing a malevolent warp entity. Too close to that ground to travel I think.
Also, as all-powerful as the Chaos Gods are, I do think one of the most interesting parts of the Necrons is that they are old. Old beyond reckoning. Their troubles started before the Chaos Gods were even born.
The ruinous powers were brought into being by all of the psychic turmoil of a galaxy-spanning conflict that makes the current galactic warzone look like a lovers' spat. I like that piece of fluff. Not only does it give some background of how the chaos gods became how they are (I like to think that they were originally benevolent warp entities that were slowly twisted beyond recognition by the outpouring of hate during the War in Heaven), but it also provides the necessary era of noblebright to contrast the grimdark of the current setting. Grimdark thrives best on 'the world used to be better, but tragic things happened and now it's all screwed to hell'. It's what the Fall of the Eldar does, what the Dark Age of Technology does, what the Great Crusade does, and what we suspect will happen soon to the Tau.
IdleAltruism wrote: I personally think that all thought within the 40k universe is a generator of warp energy, and the physical structures that allow thought create a natural pool of warp energy around themselves; this is what we understand as the soul in 40k. With that being said, I do believe that all Necrons probably have a soul, in the same way that a simple AI might have a soul; it might be incredibly miniscule, but it is still technically there. The shift from their natural bodies to necrodermis was probably a fairly radical transition that left quite the cultural gap to be filled. No longer fearing death probably had a profound effect on their psyche: A literal numbing of emotion caused by a surreal form of sensory deprivation (to a certain extent) and the ejection of millennia of cultural development. I don't approve of powerful emotions being at work. To me emotions equate to warp energy, and that is not their M.O. . Insanity on the other hand, there is plenty of room for that. The inability to cope with eternity and the imperfect nature of a synthetic body hosting a quite limited mind could easily account for such insanity and not produce intense emotions.
Setting aside my doubts as to whether the 40k universe can cope with another malevolent warp-spawned god as something else entirely, I really really like this description of what a soul is in 40k and how that might affect what's happened to the Necrons.
I personally love the concept that their newfound escape from mortality actually feels like a sort of sensory deprivation. Brilliant.
Also, your assertions that everything in 40k has a soul on some sort of level is actually rooted in official fluff. According to the Daemons codex I believe, even inert weapons like a sword has a form of soul that can be corrupted. If a sword can have a soul, you'll bet that a humanoid robot that has any level of intelligence has one as well.
I think insanity is a powerful tool, but one that has to be used carefully in 40k. I've seen what's happened to the Chaos Space Marines recently. Nearly every new release or unit has had them described as 'driven insane by their exposure to the warp', which I feel is a lazy motivation for them. The eponymous writers of 1d4chan explain it better than I ever could: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chaos_Space_Marines#Oh_Gods_how_do_we_fix_this.3F
I suspect it's something you've already reached the conclusion of, but when dealing with the insanity of the Necrons I feel like it should be a sort of insidious insanity. An insanity that isn't readily apparent on the surface, but when you scratch a little deeper it suddenly strikes you the enormity of just how insane they are, compared to you and I.
Easier said than done, of course, but an important thing on the checklist.
Ynneadwraith wrote:
What's so insane about there being thousands of C'Tan?
There could be millions or billions. The scope of a galactic empire is often overlooked. We could be talking millions of systems and space installations. We don't have a lot to go off of, but the number could be incredibly high.
Ynneadwraith wrote: The point of the C'Tan as a plague that followed the Necrontyr is that they were unaware it was happening. It's a big theme of 40k for technologically advanced societies to be blind to one or more areas of study.
I understand that, but this specific example is too limiting. A galactic empire is bound to have deep space stations and long term flight crews somewhere, and they would be observably unaffected by the ravages of an infected star. It's a problem that identifies itself, and it has relatively simple solutions. It can be as conveniently mysterious as even the most inept author could imagine, and it still wouldn't matter.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I feel like it's ground that's been trodden too many times by the other factions of the universe. The Eldar's whole shtick is that they brought about their destruction through birthing a malevolent warp entity.
Also, as all-powerful as the Chaos Gods are, I do think one of the most interesting parts of the Necrons is that they are old. Old beyond reckoning. Their troubles started before the Chaos Gods were even born.
The ruinous powers were brought into being by all of the psychic turmoil of a galaxy-spanning conflict that makes the current galactic warzone look like a lovers' spat. I like that piece of fluff. Not only does it give some background of how the chaos gods became how they are (I like to think that they were originally benevolent warp entities that were slowly twisted beyond recognition by the outpouring of hate during the War in Heaven), but it also provides the necessary era of noblebright to contrast the grimdark of the current setting. Grimdark thrives best on 'the world used to be better, but tragic things happened and now it's all screwed to hell'. It's what the Fall of the Eldar does, what the Dark Age of Technology does, what the Great Crusade does, and what we suspect will happen soon to the Tau.
It might be an overplayed card, but it's the only thing that makes sense using the current Necron lore. I just can't see a viable excuse for them having health related issues outside of magic. There are too many methods for a civilization as advanced and widespread as they were to avoid anything remotely related to natural health concerns (or even something as crazy as star vampire voodoo). I think it just depends on how far we want to deviate from the source material.
I don't agree with the notion that the gods of chaos were spawned during the war in heaven. They are described as primordial, and the relative calm of the warp only reflect the state of the galaxy; this does not preclude the existence of the fundamental elements that the chaos deities are composed of, just that their influence was limited or that their shape may have been altered as a result of the galactic composition of thought and emotion of the time. The Old Ones may have had a handle on the warp itself, but so did the Eldar. They managed, according to official fluff, 60 million years, give or take, without incident; they even managed to fashion their own gods. Granted, I don't think hard GW numbers should ever be taken seriously; the concept is that they managed to, on some level, keep the warp relatively calm for a long period of time before it all went to hell.
I think there is a much more compelling case to be made that the Chaos Gods in their current iteration are a reflection of humanity. The Eldar version of gods reflected their unique mentality, and they were probably the dominant warp force during the height of the Eldar. But, with the ascendancy of humanity, not just general conflict, their psychic resonance produced the ruinous powers we all know and love. However, Slaanesh is quite unique in that the reality of the birth of Slaanesh was such a traumatic and visible event that it impressed itself upon humanity's consciousness and afforded an Eldar concept a foothold in an otherwise human pantheon. If it had not left such an impression, I would hazard a guess that Slaanesh, as we understand it, would be a relatively minor figure in the grand scheme of things.
For example:
WhiteDwarf127 wrote:When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.
This is an old piece of lore connecting Khaine to Khorne, reflecting the all encompassing nature of primordial aspects within the warp itself. Viewing the warp as disparate entities is probably a result of an overly simplistic understanding of the warp based on the imperfect knowledge of those in the 40k universe. Their conceptualization of warp entities as individuals is a familiar way of interpreting information, and this grew into the common understanding. However, it is much more likely, given the nature of the warp itself, that it is a collection of psychic energy. I like to describe it as a mirror; it reflects all the various portions of the galaxy's distinct mental attributes, but it is itself a single entity. What it currently reflects are the harsh realities of life within the galaxy, particularly of humans and their desires and fears.
I think that understanding fits well with the concept of the Necrons being a dominant force in the galaxy and them producing their own noticeable effect on the warp. It may have been relatively minor in comparison to what the Old One's produced, but it was enough to screw them over. I don't believe that this entity would have to be nearly as influential as the modern incarnation of Nurgle, for instance. Whatever the Necrons could manage, proportionally to their own emotional and psychic abilities, should be perfectly adequate for this specific purpose. Their demise and the mental gelding of the vast majority of their population should more than explain the disappearance of that particular deity or aspect, whatever we'd like to call it.
2016/10/31 01:03:37
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
In the vast majority of other settings, the Tau would be a dystopian authoritarian propaganda state that's easily the most evil faction. In 40k, they're definitely the least overtly evil faction, and were criticised for a long time for being too nice (personally, that myth is dispelled for me. Half of what you hear about the Tau is propaganda).
The lore that you typically read is meant to be as unbiased as possible, and also looks into various aspects of each faction that can only be known to that particular faction. While some propaganda and uncertainties are written into the mainstream lore, such snippets are minimal, and only for when the lore is told through the eyes of the Imperium, the go to faction for insight.
Ruthlessly reclaiming your empire, exterminating all in your path is par for the course. Every single faction, at every shade of morally grey, is doing this. If you want to have an evil faction in 40k you have to go the extra mile.
The Dark Eldar enslave and torture other living beings to replenish their souls, and have been doing it long enough that they actively enjoy it.
The Chaos Gods are Lovecraftian entities of unimaginable intellect that toy with our lives and bestow horrific mutations on their faithful while subjecting your immortal soul to unimaginable tortures.
The Tyranids are an extra-galactic plague of unfathomable proportions that strips the biomass of galaxies to feed itself, leaving nothing but bare rock and dead worlds in its wake.
Against that, the Necrons' 'we quite fancy having our old empire back' is far too Craftworld Eldar of a motivation for a race that's supposed to be evil.
I'm gonna have to disagree on those last two bits. A race that may have been from birth intended to devour biomass cannot be considered to be "evil", not until we know more about their history and what the Hive Mind exactly does.
And are the Necrontyr truly an evil race? To me, their story is more about a race who plundered too deep into the quest for knowledge - the power to live longer than their very short lifespans. It backfired horribly, through a long string of malicious and nasty plans and events that turned them into what they are. Does that make them inherently "evil"? They certainly don't have clean hands, even in the 41st Millennium, after they've returned to strength, but I think labelling them as "evil" is giving them too much credit as a whole for the actions of a single Necrontyr who turned his race into what it is now, and who regrets his actions. Nothing evil truly shows regret for their actions - the only regret they can show is when they didn't torment, main, burn and kill enough.
I really, really struggle with why the Necrons in their current iteration would ever bother fighting the Tyranids. If I was an immortal undead robot, Tyranids would be something that happened to other people.
Uniting your faction to face down the galaxy's biggest threat is not something that should be on an evil faction's resume unless there's a solid gold reason for it to be there.
If I was a Necron Lord, I wouldn't give a flying monkeys what happened to the other squishies that had sprung up in the galaxy while I was sleeping. Not my problem.
Just because you're made of Living Metal, does not mean the Tyranids do not pose a major threat to your old empire and the very galaxy you inhabit. They will still try to tear the Necrons asunder, and if the Silent King is correct, there are far too many of them for anyone to face alone, even including the mighty Imperium of Man. It makes perfect sense for the Silent King to realise this and hurry to the other Dynasties with his old council to warn them.
100% agreed on the warning to keep it believable. That's the main issue that I have with the current Necron fluff. It just goes too far for me to be able to suspend my disbelief with it. There's too many logical leaps without adequate explanation for me.
The motivations of the Necrons are fairly simple - reclaim their empire, their galaxy; what is rightfully theirs. The Silent King may have slightly different motives, but ultimately he is currently not significant enough to the majority of the Necrontyr who have awoken from stasis. They see their empire crawling with other life, and they are not pleased.
There is the possibility of many Necrons wanting to return to their old selves, but currently that objective seems to be of negligible importance in the face of reclaiming their worlds and resettling the galaxy.
... if it hasn't been mentioned in these walls of text yet, the idea of the Necrontyr being a cancer-ridden race dying due to a bad draw from the deck of celestial cards is old, old fluff and no longer relevant to their current incarnation.
Currently, the Necrontyr had a galaxy-spanning empire before their war with the Old Ones, a war touched off to unite them against a common enemy, rather than the constant conflicts between the Dynasties that had previously threatened their survival.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: ... if it hasn't been mentioned in these walls of text yet, the idea of the Necrontyr being a cancer-ridden race dying due to a bad draw from the deck of celestial cards is old, old fluff and no longer relevant to their current incarnation.
'Born of a dying world, with bodies cursed by pitifully short life spans...' (Second sentence under 'The Price of Power', Codex: Necrons (7th ed.))
2016/10/31 11:37:52
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
The lore that you typically read is meant to be as unbiased as possible, and also looks into various aspects of each faction that can only be known to that particular faction. While some propaganda and uncertainties are written into the mainstream lore, such snippets are minimal, and only for when the lore is told through the eyes of the Imperium, the go to faction for insight.
The beauty about 40k is that, by applying that even the codices could be propaganda or disinformation to an extent, you can read a ton more nuance into the factions. For instance, the story of Arhra differs between the Craftworld and the Commorite tellings. Who knows which one is true? It's a nice little touch that calls into question the absolute truth that each codex purports.
Personally, the Tau Empire showing hints of an Orwellian dystopia makes it very entertaining to read some of their fluff with a slightly skeptical eye.
Whether the codices are meant to be taken as read isn't something you or I are party to. It's just more fun to be a little skeptical
I'm gonna have to disagree on those last two bits. A race that may have been from birth intended to devour biomass cannot be considered to be "evil", not until we know more about their history and what the Hive Mind exactly does.
And are the Necrontyr truly an evil race? To me, their story is more about a race who plundered too deep into the quest for knowledge - the power to live longer than their very short lifespans. It backfired horribly, through a long string of malicious and nasty plans and events that turned them into what they are. Does that make them inherently "evil"? They certainly don't have clean hands, even in the 41st Millennium, after they've returned to strength, but I think labelling them as "evil" is giving them too much credit as a whole for the actions of a single Necrontyr who turned his race into what it is now, and who regrets his actions. Nothing evil truly shows regret for their actions - the only regret they can show is when they didn't torment, main, burn and kill enough.
I believe the word 'evil' has a certain degree of subtlety in the 40k universe. No faction is unequivocally evil, and no faction is unequivocally good.
I suppose I should have picked a better word to describe them. How about 'extra-terrestrial horror'.
Taking it from the perspective of the Imperium, as everything sort of is in 40k, you could divide the galaxy into 'the mighty Imperium of Man', 'extra-terrestrial horrors' and 'insidious veiled threats'.
An army of galaxy-devouring bugs certainly falls into the 'extra-terrestrial horror' camp. As does an army of primordial undead terminators.
As with everything in 40k, it's the shades of grey that make the 'extra-terrestrial horrors' really good bits of fluff. The Necrons being tricked into selling their souls, the Dark Eldar enslaving and torturing in a desperate attempt to stave off Slaanesh etc.
Just because you're made of Living Metal, does not mean the Tyranids do not pose a major threat to your old empire and the very galaxy you inhabit. They will still try to tear the Necrons asunder, and if the Silent King is correct, there are far too many of them for anyone to face alone, even including the mighty Imperium of Man. It makes perfect sense for the Silent King to realise this and hurry to the other Dynasties with his old council to warn them.
I'm sorry, but I still don't buy it. If we accept the current fluff as it is, the Necrons are immortal metallic robots with stupid-tier technology that as far as the fluff is concerned knows no limits beyond access to warp tech.
The only logical solution from that Necron perspective is to wake up, realise there's an extra-galactic locust swarm swinging by, go back to sleep again until it passes, then wake up and the galaxy is yours. It's already been stated in the fluff that the Tyranids pass on low-biomass worlds. A barren rock full of metal crypts is not a juicy target.
The only reason for the Necrons to fight the Tyranids is because they care what happens to the other squishier races of the galaxy.
No other species in 40k gives a flying monkeys what happens to another one, apart from the Tau and it's sort of their thing that they're too naive to realise that's not a good idea. Making an army of undead robots care is just grating in the context of the rest of 40k.
I can see how wanting to get back into biological bodies would mean that they've got a vested interest, but that's not the angle they've gone for. They've gone for 'the Silent King is actually an alright bloke', which as I've said before, is grating in the context of 40k.
The motivations of the Necrons are fairly simple - reclaim their empire, their galaxy; what is rightfully theirs. The Silent King may have slightly different motives, but ultimately he is currently not significant enough to the majority of the Necrontyr who have awoken from stasis. They see their empire crawling with other life, and they are not pleased.
There is the possibility of many Necrons wanting to return to their old selves, but currently that objective seems to be of negligible importance in the face of reclaiming their worlds and resettling the galaxy.
It's less that this isn't an acceptable motivation for the Necrons, it's just that it seems like a missed opportunity to do something different with a factions' motivations.
The Eldar already have a dead empire that they're trying to reclaim, and view the stars as theirs. The Imperium has a dying empire that they're trying to hold onto, and view the stars as theirs. The Tau are just starting on the journey of building their empire.
Empire building/reclaiming is what all the other, pathetic younger races of the galaxy are trying to do. If you change the motivation of the Necrons to something different, it's just better. Suddenly, they're above all the petty squabbling mortal races bickering over a dying galaxy. Suddenly, they actually fit the idea that they're a race that's existed since the dawn of time.
There could be millions or billions. The scope of a galactic empire is often overlooked. We could be talking millions of systems and space installations. We don't have a lot to go off of, but the number could be incredibly high.
Very good point, but still within the scope of the explanation.
Also, f you weave the C'Tan into the War in Heaven in a slightly different way it all hangs together.
Picture the War in Heaven as a galactic scale conflict.
Billions upon billions of Old Ones and their warrior races go to battle with billions upon billions of C'Tan and their Necron slaves. Untold carnage is unleashed upon the universe, and the Old Ones are annihilated. In the aftermath, a relative handful of C'Tan remain. Seizing the opportunity to break their shackles, the Necrons hunt down any remaining C'Tan they can find, capturing them in Tesseract Vaults.
Still believable (more believable for me certainly than the Necrons shattering beings of untold power with super-duper tech levels that they somehow haven't used in the present day universe for some reason...). At the end of the day, you get to the same point
I understand that, but this specific example is too limiting. A galactic empire is bound to have deep space stations and long term flight crews somewhere, and they would be observably unaffected by the ravages of an infected star. It's a problem that identifies itself, and it has relatively simple solutions. It can be as conveniently mysterious as even the most inept author could imagine, and it still wouldn't matter.
This is where the Star Vampires' ability to latch onto Necrontyr reactors as a food source fits in. Wherever the Necrontyr travel, they bring their technology with them. Space installations, starships, colonies. Wherever they go, there is no escaping the C'Tan.
It is the process by which the C'Tan's feeding affects the Necrontyr that would be left mysterious. There isn't the requirement for that level of detail in 40k fluff. We let other, far larger suspensions of disbelief go unquestioned and that's absolutely fine.
There isn't a requirement to explain the mechanism by which a being we don't understand causes illness in another being that we don't understand at that level of detail. I know that seems like a lazy copout, but it's necessary to omit certain details of science fantasy. Otherwise all your superhuman warrior monks walking across the battlefield to hit the aliens with their swords would just get cut down by guns. It would be more realistic to explain that, but it would be less cool.
IdleAltruism wrote: It might be an overplayed card, but it's the only thing that makes sense using the current Necron lore. I just can't see a viable excuse for them having health related issues outside of magic. There are too many methods for a civilization as advanced and widespread as they were to avoid anything remotely related to natural health concerns (or even something as crazy as star vampire voodoo). I think it just depends on how far we want to deviate from the source material.
Ugh, I severely dislike the concept that the Necrons are 'limitless masters of science and technology' as is insinuated in their current fluff. It's universe-breaking, and makes it difficult to write convincing fluff as you've demonstrated at the start. If that's the case, why have they not steamrollered every single faction with relative ease? Why didn't they achieve immortality? Why did they bother going to sleep at all?
It just makes no sense.
In my head, the Necrons are very advanced certainly, but fallible like all mortal races. Eldar-levels of tech, but down a different tech tree.
Having them flummoxed by an alien radiation unknown to our current level of science seems fine in the light of them being technologically advanced, but not infallible. It's no less believable than the stagnant tech of the Imperium, or why the Eldar don't just fight all their battles with Wraithguard to save their citizens lives.
Explaining it through spawning of a warp god is definitely a cool idea. Having a malevolent Necrontyr God of Death is a cool concept, but I don't think it fits the fluff as well as 'Star-Vampire radiation voodoo'. The Necrontyr are described as having a very weak warp presence, and I think it's insinuated that it takes a colossal psychic presence to birth a god-concept in the warp. The Eldar, the most psychic race in the universe, took a galactic empire and 23,000 years of unheard of hedonism to birth a warp entity. Humans also have their warp gods, but humanity is penned as a burgeoning psychic race with more psychic potential than has currently been realised. The Necrontyr are described as being psychically blunt.
Star-Vampire voodoo builds on the existing fluff that the C'Tan are malevolent entities of great power who were instrumental in the pre-history of the Necrontyr. Throwning that away in favour of a warp-spawned entity seems to me to detract from the distinction between the Necrontyr and the other galactic races.
IdleAltruism wrote: I don't agree with the notion that the gods of chaos were spawned during the war in heaven. They are described as primordial, and the relative calm of the warp only reflect the state of the galaxy; this does not preclude the existence of the fundamental elements that the chaos deities are composed of, just that their influence was limited or that their shape may have been altered as a result of the galactic composition of thought and emotion of the time. The Old Ones may have had a handle on the warp itself, but so did the Eldar. They managed, according to official fluff, 60 million years, give or take, without incident; they even managed to fashion their own gods. Granted, I don't think hard GW numbers should ever be taken seriously; the concept is that they managed to, on some level, keep the warp relatively calm for a long period of time before it all went to hell.
I think there is a much more compelling case to be made that the Chaos Gods in their current iteration are a reflection of humanity. The Eldar version of gods reflected their unique mentality, and they were probably the dominant warp force during the height of the Eldar. But, with the ascendancy of humanity, not just general conflict, their psychic resonance produced the ruinous powers we all know and love. However, Slaanesh is quite unique in that the reality of the birth of Slaanesh was such a traumatic and visible event that it impressed itself upon humanity's consciousness and afforded an Eldar concept a foothold in an otherwise human pantheon. If it had not left such an impression, I would hazard a guess that Slaanesh, as we understand it, would be a relatively minor figure in the grand scheme of things.
I suppose 'spawned' was the wrong way to describe it. How about 'warped into their current, malevolent forms'. I agree that their primordial forms will have existed since the dawn of time, but prior to the stirring up of the warp by the Old Ones' weaponisation of the warp, it was described as being a calm and peaceful place.
I do like the concept that the Chaos Gods in their current form are reflections of humanity. Definitely fits my understanding of the warp and the galaxy as a whole, and that description of Slaanesh's birth being so traumatic that it impressed itself on humanity's consciousness is a fitting description as well.
WhiteDwarf127 wrote:When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.
This is an old piece of lore connecting Khaine to Khorne, reflecting the all encompassing nature of primordial aspects within the warp itself. Viewing the warp as disparate entities is probably a result of an overly simplistic understanding of the warp based on the imperfect knowledge of those in the 40k universe. Their conceptualization of warp entities as individuals is a familiar way of interpreting information, and this grew into the common understanding. However, it is much more likely, given the nature of the warp itself, that it is a collection of psychic energy. I like to describe it as a mirror; it reflects all the various portions of the galaxy's distinct mental attributes, but it is itself a single entity. What it currently reflects are the harsh realities of life within the galaxy, particularly of humans and their desires and fears.
I've always had a thorough, base level dislike of that little piece of fluff. I've never really looked into why I dislike it so much, but I think I've hit the nail on the head and it also helps to explain why I'm not entirely sold on the 'Necron warp diety' explanation.
I like connections between the factions at a low level. It helps to tie the universe together as a cohesive whole.
However, if you start messing with certain factions' fluff, adding in major aspects of other factions that make the original faction look weaker or less significant it feels like you're shoehorning something in that shouldn't be there.
If we take it that Khaine fought Slaanesh in the warp but s/he was too strong from gorging on the souls of an intersetellar empire and Kahine was shattered, it makes Slaanesh look badass. Makes Khaine look badass. Makes the titanic conflict look badass. Plus, it distinguishes the history and culture of the Eldar from the other races in the galaxy.
If you have a battle in the warp where Khaine is fighting Slaanesh, then Khorne gatecrashed the battle and both Khorne and Slaanesh have a tug-of-war over Khaine it makes Khaine look weaksauce, makes Slaanesh look weaksauce, but makes Khorne (an entity that plays no other part in the history of the Eldar) look powerful. It reads like it was written by a manly man Khornate Chaos fanboy, who hated the f*ggoty pansy space elves and Slaanesh made him feel funny about his sexuality, has taken a crayon and scribbled over that bit in the codex to make his favourite manly man warp-god seem more manly.
It makes logical sense from an in-universe understandign of how the warp works, but it detracts from the quality fluff in every other way.
That's why I don't think it's a good idea for the Necrons' curse to be warp-spawned. It feels like sandwiching another factions' MO into the Necrons' background, which makes them seem weaker/less cool. Keep the Necrons and their Star-Vampires unique. Warp-spawned curses is the domain of humanity and the eldar.
Psienesis wrote: ... if it hasn't been mentioned in these walls of text yet, the idea of the Necrontyr being a cancer-ridden race dying due to a bad draw from the deck of celestial cards is old, old fluff and no longer relevant to their current incarnation.
Currently, the Necrontyr had a galaxy-spanning empire before their war with the Old Ones, a war touched off to unite them against a common enemy, rather than the constant conflicts between the Dynasties that had previously threatened their survival.
Apologies for the walls of text! Must make it very difficult to read :S
I understand that it's been a significantly downplayed part of the Necron fluff recently (although it is still there), but I think it's too good of a piece of background not to focus on. It opens up so many other opportunities that other factions haven't traveled already.
I just think that the current motivation to undertake a galaxy-spanning war is a bit of a weak one. Don't get me wrong, it works, but again all of it seems like a missed opportunity to do something a little different.
Personally, I love the idea that the Necrontyr were one of the Old Ones' creations themselves (they fit the body-plan pattern for the other Old One creations: torso, separate head, two legs, two arms, just like the orks, the eldar and possibly humanity).
When they contacted the Old Ones, they could not understand why they had made them so fragile and short-lived. Especially when the eldar, the favoured children, were gifted with immense longevity and perfect health.
When the Old Ones spurned their cries for help, they turned on their masters through betrayal and bitterness, causing the War in Heaven.
Seems like a much juicier reason for galactic conflict, and helps define the Necrons' personality as 'bitter' rather than 'petty' as the current fluff implies.
Ynneadwraith wrote:Ugh, I severely dislike the concept that the Necrons are 'limitless masters of science and technology' as is insinuated in their current fluff.
I believe there is an alternative to this interpretation. If you really look at the Necron's technology, it's pretty clear that GW has no concept of the science behind it. Because of this, the Necrons also have no real concept of the technology. I think this flub by GW is a pretty consistent through line that can be exploited by us to create a narrative involving the limitations of technology within the setting, or more precisely, the limitations of biology when it comes to understanding technology.
Most of the main races in 40k have a physical brain, and as a result there are limits to their understanding. They are bound by the limited nature of their corporeal form. As a result, there is a maximum rate at which information can be shared and handled. A concept of capacity, restrictions on sensory input, and any other variety of limiting factors imposed by having a specific physical body hinder the development of technology. Tools can be developed to greatly expand that potential, but it can only go so far. With that understanding, we can look at the very nature of science in 40k and gain some clarity on the issue. For one, it's pretty clear that there is a soft cap on technology. Most of the races plateau at a specific level, and some problems, like FTL travel, are simply physically impossible. This is perfectly fine as there are real physical limitations in the universe, something science fiction is usually pretty reluctant to admit. What this could mean is that the science of the 40k universe is at the upper limit of what is physically possible, and moving beyond it becomes increasingly difficult by orders of magnitude. The Imperium is a pretty excellent example of this: Dark Age humans have insane technology because of their implementation of AI, but as soon as they lose that tremendous tool, they lose all understanding of technology that would push them past the biological peak of all the other races. Similarly, psychic powers push races past certain physically limiting barriers, such as warp travel. The Old Ones were pretty clearly technologically limited in some fashion, as the Orks reflect a limitation in what they understood, but they surpassed much of their own deficiencies with tremendous control over the warp.
As far as the Necrons are concerned, we don't really know what they were like before the C'Tan. They could have had a galactic empire, but the height of their technology may have been their terribly slow stasis ships. If the Old Ones were not actively opposing them, then it could mean that the buffer of the Old Ones allowed for lesser races of all sorts to create empires in the galaxy wherever they did not actively inhabit territory. A peaceful galactic powerhouse, like the Old Ones, could create very stable conditions for technologically inferior races to thrive. The Necrontyr may have been quite inferior to current 40k races and we would never know. However, the C'Tan could change all of this. For all we know the C'Tan could have had a similar issue to all the other races in that sensory input and output was a physically limiting factor for them. Without a true corporeal form their ability to register information could be greatly hindered. Once the Necrontyr manage to create a means of communication via the new bodies provided to the C'Tan, their incredibly potent abilities are amplified. They could have been very much like AI at that point, learning and developing at an extreme rate, and within a very short amount of time this could have lead them to a mastery of technology that wouldn't be seen again until the arrival of humans. As a result, they imparted a portion of their knowledge to their new followers. However, it's pretty clear that the current Necrons have no idea how any of it works, otherwise the insanely devastating technology they possess could be utilized in dramatically more creative ways. This echos the Imperium's history quite well, just with different benefactors. This same pattern is also mimicked with the Tau. The Tau have some ok technology, but despite their rapid advancement, they are clearly a stupid race. They utilize their technology incredibly inefficiently. This can easily be explained, though. Within the Tau lore, they gain technology through means outside of development. One good example is the ship they reverse engineer. This could have granted them far more technology than just warp drives. It also specifically mentions that they are gifted the technology of rail guns by one species within their Empire. Who knows how many other pieces of Tau technology were gained through the various species incorporated into the Empire? The Tau have tremendous organizational and propaganda skills, but they seem technologically inept. The best they could come up with is mech suits, which are terribly inefficient from a design standpoint. They are clearly a warlike race struggling to implement very new technology. Essentially, they make a new gun out of everything they can and desperately try and enhance the equipment of their troops. This is very similar to the Imperium and the Necrons. The Imperium is almost exactly the same, struggling desperately to reclaim old technology in order to make more wargear (the Rhino is the perfect example of this, turning an ancient all-terrain exploration vehicle into a mainstay tank).
If you desire a means of rationalizing the Necrontyr as a technologically inept race, there is a potent argument to be made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 17:18:03
Psienesis wrote: They had Dolmen Gates before they discovered the C'Tan. Hell, they had time-travel before they discovered the C'Tan.
See, this is what's so broken about the current Necron fluff.
Even in the universe of psychics and daemons and space elves and hordes of Xenomorphs from Alien this strikes me as utterly unbelievable. If they can time travel, what the feth is the point in fighting them?
It's just ham-fisted. There's no delicacy or nuance to it. It's just bad writing.
Yeah, them having Time travel before the C'tan is pretty dumb. What's the point of summoning the Star Gods if they were that OP already? The point of the C'tan was that the Necrontyr were advanced, but couldn't deal with the reality breaking warp tech of the Old Ones, so they needed to break reality their own way, Going Za Warudo and manipulating time from the get go is already pretty reality breaking.
Can you imagine the the C'tan's sale pitch?
C'tan = If you free us from the stars, we will give you time manipulation! Necrontyr = yeah, we got that C'tan = Uhh ok, what about dimensional travel Necrontyr = Got it C'tan (exasperated) = Remotely blowing up stars? N = got that too, actually. The guys who built it are being real donkey-caves about that. They're like, "nooo you can't end the war instantly, because mah pretty solar alignments' C'tan = feth it, how about you get put into a bunch of metal bodies instead N = yeah, that sound cool, do that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/01 10:45:05
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2016/11/01 10:40:26
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
Time Travel is very, very dangerous. Have you guys not played Red Alert before? (I assume you have CthulusSpy by your signature)
Seriously though, any change in actions if one were to go back in time could bring long unforeseen consequences that are more likely to destroy you than do any good for your personal gains. I assume the Necrontyr were intelligent enough to know this and use such tech sparingly, although personally I was not aware they had such technology in the first place.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/01 10:44:09
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint!
2016/11/01 10:48:08
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
General Annoyance wrote: Time Travel is very, very dangerous. Have you guys not played Red Alert before? (I assume you have CthulusSpy by your signature)
Seriously though, any change in actions if one were to go back in time could bring long unforeseen consequences that are more likely to destroy you than do any good for your personal gains. I assume the Necrontyr were intelligent enough to know this and use such tech sparingly, although personally I was not aware they had such technology in the first place.
True, but temporal manipulation doesn't have to be going back in time. It could be just as easily slowing down or even stopping time, something that the necrons are stated as being capable of doing. Which is already really powerful. Its pretty much a tactical "I win" button. On the plus side, I eagerly await a Necron Dio Brando model. Not that they are already so garish as to pass for something from Jojo anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/01 10:49:46
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2016/11/01 10:48:33
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, them having Time travel before the C'tan is pretty dumb. What's the point of summoning the Star Gods if they were that OP already? The point of the C'tan was that the Necrontyr were advanced, but couldn't deal with the reality breaking warp tech of the Old Ones, so they needed to break reality their own way,
Going Za Warudo and manipulating time from the get go is already pretty reality breaking.
Can you imagine the the C'tan's sale pitch?
C'tan = If you free us from the stars, we will give you time manipulation!
Necrontyr = yeah, we got that
C'tan = Uhh ok, what about dimensional travel
Necrontyr = Got it
C'tan (exasperated) = Remotely blowing up stars?
N = got that too, actually. The guys who built it are being real donkey-caves about that. They're like, "nooo you can't end the war instantly, because mah pretty solar alignments'
C'tan = feth it, how about you get put into a bunch of metal bodies instead
N = yeah, that sound cool, do that.
Hah yeah agreed. Ttbh, having them time travel at all is a bit ropey from my perspective. I've always found time-travel to be a bit of a lazy trope to tie up an otherwise impossible story thread*.
I definitely like the idea of the Necrontyr Empire being a slow-crawl type expansion. Technologically advanced beyond the point of the Imperium in a number of ways, but severely limited by their lack of access to warp tech.
I can definitely see a Necrontyr Empire built on the basis of individual planets colonised by stasis ships built up over thousands and thousands of years. The limiting factor to that would be faster-than-light communication, but there are already hints of that being possible in reality with quantum entanglement.
This empire would be at a massive disadvantage to the Old Ones as they could be picked off piecemeal.
Huh, just had a thought. I've always wanted to have a crack at making pre-biotransference Necrontyr but never really found the excuse to.
A broken stasis ship, stranded in the void for millennia before discovery would be a perfect excuse!
*There are some, very notable exceptions. Looper is a personal favourite of mine, and the villain Nox from Wakfu is possibly one of the most perfect villain concepts I've ever come across: http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Nox I thoroughly recommend anyone read the wiki article if they're in the least bit interested in creating a compelling villain. It's beautiful.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: True, but temporal manipulation doesn't have to be going back in time. It could be just as easily slowing down or even stopping time, something that the necrons are implied as being capable of doing. Which is already really powerful.
Limited temporal manipulation I am happier with than specifically travelling through time. It's well known that gravity, as well as velocity, has an effect on the passage of time, known as time dilation. For instance, from the outside things happening at the event horizon of a black hole happen imperceptibly slowly. At a low level, this is even true of the distance between the surface of the earth and orbit. For instance, on the ISS time runs 0.0000000014% slower than at sea level (the effect of its velocity outweighs the effect of the reduced gravity, but the further out you go the faster time travels).
If the Necrontyr/Necrons were able to manipulate gravity at a local level (say, in their quest to slow down time's effects on their bodies), I can see them having limited use of time dilation. It fits into their potential technology tree. It could even be the technology that induces stasis in their sleeper-ships. It all hangs together. Have to be careful with how powerful you make it though...
However, travelling backwards in time is specifically prohibited by our understanding of physics. I know it's a fantasy cosmos where daemons exist and other such nonsense, but there has to be some level of grounding in reality or all sorts of nonsense would run rife. The only explanation I'd personally be happy with for time travel is the timey-wimey, warpy-lawpy physics doesn't apply in the immaterium trope that is part of the core basis of the 40k universe.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/01 11:08:12
As another point, Bio-Transference was something the Necrontyr came up with on their own, it wasn't something the C'Tan gave them.
In fact, it was the creation of Necrodermis that allowed the Necrontyr to build the shells the C'Tan would come down from the stars they were eating in order to inhabit that permitted the two to communicate.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: As another point, Bio-Transference was something the Necrontyr came up with on their own, it wasn't something the C'Tan gave them.
In fact, it was the creation of Necrodermis that allowed the Necrontyr to build the shells the C'Tan would come down from the stars they were eating in order to inhabit that permitted the two to communicate.
Yeah that does ring a bell, and I do like that it's that way round. Having the C'Tan gift them all of their technology is just as bad as them having nothing to give.
It was The Deceiver/Mephet'ran that tricked them into the Necron bodies though wasn't it? Has that survived the migration to Newcrons?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/06 23:43:09
Psienesis wrote: As another point, Bio-Transference was something the Necrontyr came up with on their own, it wasn't something the C'Tan gave them.
In fact, it was the creation of Necrodermis that allowed the Necrontyr to build the shells the C'Tan would come down from the stars they were eating in order to inhabit that permitted the two to communicate.
Then what did the C'tan give the Necrontyr? By the looks of it, the Necrontyr already had god-tier level tech, so it couldn't have been that, and if the necrontyr already had biotransference then they could have put themselves in the metal bodies. You could easily write out the C'tan that way and make it Not-Nagash's doing instead.
In the old book, iirc, the C'tan gave the Necrons "immortality", or bio-transference, as well as some of the more powerful bits of tech, such as advanced spatio-temporal manipulation, which allowed them to keep up with the Old One's warp shenanigans. It would seem that there was no real reason to summon the C'tan now; what's the point of getting help from gods if you are one already?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/07 12:17:08
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Then what did the C'tan give the Necrontyr? By the looks of it, the Necrontyr already had god-tier level tech, so it couldn't have been that, and if the necrontyr already had biotransference then they could have been themselves in the metal bodies. You could easily write out the C'tan that way and make it Not-Nagash's doing instead.
In the old book, iirc, the C'tan gave the Necrons "immortality", or bio-transference, as well as some of the more powerful bits of tech, such as advanced spatio-temporal manipulation, which allowed them to keep with the Old One's warp shenanigans.
It would seem that there was no real reason to summon the C'tan now; what's the point of getting help from gods if you are one already?
Hmmm, you make a good point. It's the whole 'god-tier tech' problem which causes nothing but issues.
I'd much prefer to see the Necrontyr as advanced, but not that far. They've got necrodermis, stasis tech, sleeper ships (perhaps with a not very fast FTL tech based on spatio-temporal manipulation), FTL communication and have reached the end of the line with their rejuvenation tech and it's not quite enough. Perhaps they've got the ability to build metal bodies, but their means for transferring their consciousness across doesn't work.
Given this level of tech, the C'Tan can offer a lot. Faster FTL drives (but still slower than warp travel, that's important) and immortal bodies.
This thread is too long to read in a single study break
I shall be back. Just wanted to say I absolutely adored the little snippet of the cryptek noticing the 'soul' of their legions showing through in random places and not understanding what is going on. Such an intriguing picture you painted :
Psienesis wrote: As another point, Bio-Transference was something the Necrontyr came up with on their own, it wasn't something the C'Tan gave them.
In fact, it was the creation of Necrodermis that allowed the Necrontyr to build the shells the C'Tan would come down from the stars they were eating in order to inhabit that permitted the two to communicate.
Then what did the C'tan give the Necrontyr? By the looks of it, the Necrontyr already had god-tier level tech, so it couldn't have been that, and if the necrontyr already had biotransference then they could have put themselves in the metal bodies. You could easily write out the C'tan that way and make it Not-Nagash's doing instead.
In the old book, iirc, the C'tan gave the Necrons "immortality", or bio-transference, as well as some of the more powerful bits of tech, such as advanced spatio-temporal manipulation, which allowed them to keep up with the Old One's warp shenanigans.
It would seem that there was no real reason to summon the C'tan now; what's the point of getting help from gods if you are one already?
Well, for starters, the C'Tan weren't "summoned". They aren't daemons, after all. In fact, the Warp is anathema to them. They're aliens.... star-eating aliens. The Necrontyr discovered the C'Tan by studying odd fluctuations in the energy output of the star above one of their Crownworlds. From that point, it was simply a matter of time before contact was made and lines of communication opened. The only report we have of the C'Tan having previously fought the Old Ones comes from the C'Tan known as "The Deceiver"... and so, given that title, we have to suspect anything the entity says. Any and all of it could be lies. The Silent King was looking for a way to unite his fragmenting empire, a way to stop the wars erupting between the Dynasties... the Old Ones were a convenient target (having defeated the Necrontyr once before) and the C'Tan provided a convenient PR hook, being star-gods come to aid the Necrontyr against their hated foes.
What the Necrons, as a faction, are is the embodiment of Clarke's Law: "Any technology, suitably advanced, will seem like magic to the uninitiated". Going back to the war of Law vs Chaos in Michael Moorecock's books (which 40k is heavily based on), the Necrons represent the ultimate victory of Order: absolute stasis.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2016/11/09 12:50:58
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
I think 'summon' was just slightly the wrong word to use. 'Summon' in the 40k universe implies warp entities, but I believe the intention was just 'summon into their necrodermis bodies'. A slip of the tongue.
I do wonder how trustworthy The Deceiver is, but in the opposite direction. 'The Deceiver' is a title given to it by the Eldar. 'Mephet'ran' (messenger) is what the Necrons called it. You'd anticipate a derogatory name being applied by their enemies, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that was actually true. Probably is, but there's a perspective issue to work past.
We know their current fluff though, about the Silent King and his wars of secession. Discussion of that as absolute truth isn't really what this thread is about. This thread is about the understanding that the Newcron fluff is pretty weak and relatively uninspiring when compared to the epic, grand and grimdark setting that is 40k.
The Necrons being cast as fantastically petty squabbling warlords devalues them, and makes them seem cartoonish rather than scary.
In order to try and regain some of the scariness/coolness that they had lost, the writer ham-fistedly wedged in god-tier technology that is both universe-breaking in its implications, and requires leaps of faith that completely destroy any suspension of disbelief I (and many others) have about how technology works in 40k.
In other words, it's not very good.
What this thread is about is trying to put together a more compelling Necron background that remains true to the best parts of the fluff from both Oldcrons and Newcrons.
To sum up the key points of what I think the alternative Necrons (lets call them Altcrons) should be like, based on all the discussions in this thread and the Necrons do have souls thread:
1. It is key that Necron technology is not as god-tier as in the Newcrons fluff. There are too many inconsistencies (what could the C'Tan offer the 'crons?) or end up with comical bits of fluff that don't seem to fit the overall mood of the Necrons (the celestial orrery and Gardenercrons for example).
Instead, put the emphasis on scarily advanced. Their technology should be advanced yes, but most of all terrifying. Their Gauss Blaster is a perfect example of this. Its function is decidedly Clarke's Law, although it's actual strength on the tabletop (in my mind indicative of its strength in the fluff) is about par with a Bolter with a couple of neat effects added. However, the method by which it works (essentially speed-flaying its victim) is frankly terrifying. Why this is key, is to retain the balance that is necessary to make the 40k universe compelling. If one faction is too powerful, then there's actually no point in any of the other factions fighting at all. It's not grimdark unless there's a glimmer of hope. At the moment the Necrons breaks this.
2. The Necrons' motivations need to be more unique. Empire-building is what every single other mortal race in the galaxy is trying to do. Giving the Necrons a different motivation raises them above all that, which is fitting for a race that is unlike any other in the setting. Having them as petty squabbling warlords devalues them. It makes an impossibly ancient undead race of aliens seem like schoolchildren bickering in the playground. Not scary at all.
They need to be unified again (although retaining differences between dynasties as that's a real positive of the Newcrons codex). However, GW requires a reason for every faction to fight against itself to justify battles on the tabletop. In my opinion, this is best achieved by changing the 'necrons having souls' arrangement. Have the vast majority of Necrons be unfeeling alien metal creatures whose main motivation is the harvest of the living (something I really like as it's bloody scary). However, have a small subset (rogue Crypteks are best I think) who hate their masters, working against them from within. Remember, everything they had in life was taken away from them, probably without their prior knowledge (it was the Lords' idea after all).
My idea is that there's a story in the Altcrons codex which describes how a Cryptek stumbles upon the possibility that the souls of his people may still be trapped inside their metal shells, and vows to free them and wreak vengeance on the Overlords who condemned them to death and torture.
3. The background of the C'Tan needs to be changed. There are issues with both the Oldcron and the Newcron depiction of the C'Tan.
In the Oldcron fluff, the fact that you've got unbelievably powerful Star-Gods romping around in present-day 40k is just as universe-breaking as the god-tier tech in the Newcrons fluff. Unbelievably powerful eldritch beings (aside from the established warp gods) have no place in the present day of 40k. That sort of thing is firmly embedded in the past, which is a key foundation of all 40k fluff. In the Newcron fluff, the C'Tan being shards is a neat idea but it devalues them again. They're not scary anymore.
The solution to this, in my opinion, is far more numerous but less powerful C'Tan. They're still individually powerful, but think of them less as a handful of Star-Gods, but more like a locust swarm of star-vampires. An ancient and terrible biblical plague (hey, that actually fits with the egyptian theme somewhat).
tl;dr fix the broken tech level and make Necrons scary again I should feel dread when I'm reading about Necrons. Not mild confusion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 12:53:18
Ooh I like the idea of the C'tan being more of a swarm than a singular being. They could share something of a collective consciousness, where if enough "c'tan" come together they develop distinct personalities and motives. The "Deceiver" could be one swarm, the "Nightbringer" could be another one, etc. The question is though, how would that work with the necrodermis? Did they infuse a bunch of different pieces with a piece of C'tan, and it fused together, or were there colonies living in the stars, and they put the whole thing into a single body?
yeah, I didn't mean summon as in demonic summoning, I meant summoning as in taking the c'tan out of the star and putting them in those shiny bodies.
Necron tech should have an emphasis on psychological warfare, designed to intimidate organic targets. I agree that it should be advanced, but not the "lol, we can do anything because science" level of advancement like what they have now. The 5th ed book sort of had this; the Night Scythes in the fluff were supposed to drive people insane with the terrifying sound of their engines, which is what I thought was a nice touch. Of course, we also had Flayed Ones (they had a rule that scares people in the 3rd ed book), Nightmare shroud (the thing that makes units take morale checks), gauss tech (shreds the target layer by layer with magnets), and Pariahs.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 13:52:31
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble