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How effective do you think this would be?

Give all Tyranid organisms the Beast USR.

Suddenly your tide of bugs all move 12" ate least and ignores dangerous terrain.

Effective or not?

Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

It'll help a few units, notably Hormagaunts and Tyrant Guard, but not everything should be beast (why should Zoanthropes and Venomthropes be that fast when they are described as slowly floating over the battlefield).

Overall though it's more like pissing in the wind, the codex needs a total rewrite as large swathes of it are just unusable with poor stats, special rules that hinder far more than they help and some badly overcosted units. Changing everything to beasts wont make a bad codex good.

I don't think giving it to all of them fits. I'd make some beasts but have some that are more support focused like Venomthropes should stay Infantry.

Make all their units cheaper in general to represent the endless tide.

Current problem with the nid codex is the units are in line with 5th ed rules, in 7th ed, they are to expensive for how gakky they are. If you dropped the price on every unit and maintained the exact same stats, it would make them fine.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Make all their units cheaper in general to represent the endless tide.

Current problem with the nid codex is the units are in line with 5th ed rules, in 7th ed, they are to expensive for how gakky they are. If you dropped the price on every unit and maintained the exact same stats, it would make them fine.

I do not think just making everything dirt cheap is the right way to go. I mean it's not like they have no good units. The biggest thing nids are missing is anything with AP3 or better for ranged stuff. If the impaler cannon was made AP3 and heavy venom cannon were large bast I think it would do a lot more to fix the codex other then just making stuff cheaper.

Anything outside the Monstrous Creatures, Thropes, and Warriors should be beasts. It is a crime they aren't.


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 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

You also think SaP is a broken rule. You should never be in a rules creation thread.

It gets Beast because it is a faster moving creature than usual, and it has T3 6+.

 mew28 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Make all their units cheaper in general to represent the endless tide.

Current problem with the nid codex is the units are in line with 5th ed rules, in 7th ed, they are to expensive for how gakky they are. If you dropped the price on every unit and maintained the exact same stats, it would make them fine.

I do not think just making everything dirt cheap is the right way to go. I mean it's not like they have no good units. The biggest thing nids are missing is anything with AP3 or better for ranged stuff. If the impaler cannon was made AP3 and heavy venom cannon were large bast I think it would do a lot more to fix the codex other then just making stuff cheaper.

i agree its not that they dont have good units, because they do, its that they are over priced for what they do.

Their entire codex suffers from the same problem we have with terminators. Terminators are not inherently a bad unit. Its that their price for what they do, is awful.

Make most things a bit cheaper, address the internal imbalance between things like flying hive tyrants vs. walking hive tyrants and twin-linked devourers with brainleech worms vs. other bioweapons, and the codex is fine.

They're not supposed to have low AP shooting; they're not a shooting army. The point of Tyranid antitank weapons, I think by design, is to suppress enemy vehicles (shake them, stun them) to allow the real melee tank killers to close. They're just fine at doing that. They're just overcosted, or rather the platforms they are mounted on are overcosted. If Carnifexes were 80-100 points, and Tyrannofexes 150 points, heavy venom cannons and rupture cannons would be much more effective.

Quick fixes very rarely are effective.

This would be a change for the positive, definitely. But it wouldn't be enough, and honestly, is probably a bit TOO far in the good movement direction. I would give them a rule like Dunestrider from the Sicarians. +3" to movement, not a full 12".

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Space marines: free rules and gear

Tau: free rules and gear

Eldar: free rules and gear, buff and no point hike

Etc.

Nids: pay for every upgrade and gear

Explain to us why they should have to pay for beasts when no one else pays for there special rules

 JNAProductions wrote:
Quick fixes very rarely are effective.

This would be a change for the positive, definitely. But it wouldn't be enough, and honestly, is probably a bit TOO far in the good movement direction. I would give them a rule like Dunestrider from the Sicarians. +3" to movement, not a full 12".

They're still easy to kill and don't have transportation outside an expensive drop pod. They need the buff desperately.

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

You continue to missunderstand why exactly USR are for in 40K. They ARE NOT (generally speaking) a "bonus mechanics". They are focus/variety mechanics (often abused, I don't deny that), because current core rules+statline is not enough to represent a full spectrum of possible units across all available factions. A little exercise for you: please write down a unit using no USRs, only model+weapon statlines, that has it's peak efficiency targeting/surviving T4-5 multiwound creature with a 3+ save, which will not be, at the same time, effective against either T3/sv- hordes, T6-8/sv3+ MCs or tanks. A quick answer is - you cannot, because statline based system is linear and APvsSV is a threshold... You have to make some kind of USR for this purpose. (to elaborate: increasing ROF/attacks will linearily increase both antihorde and antiMC capabilities, no matter the weapon statline. AP3 will drop one dice roll against MC so even S4 will hurt them (and you need at least S4 to hurt T5 units better than T6 units). You are left with only one option - S10/ap- weapon and a strenght ID core rule. But now you have an ultimate (within a statline system) tank killing unit... Even introducing a "core USR" of ID will not help here, as ID will hurt MCs badly, and you don't want it in this case).

But getting to point: Hormagaunts were fast beasts since 2nd ed and if you have actually ever played against Endless Swarm Tyranids you would know, that this is how this army SHOULD feel when played against - a countless mass of bodies that you cannot simply table. You should always have to play objectives or have to focus fire on synapse aganst Tyranids and endless beast gaunts feel exactly like this.

There are definitely a number of units that SHOULD be beasts. No doubt about that. But it's not even close to the real problems with nids unfortunately.

GW has thrown a few extra kits that all make 2 units at the nids since 7th rolled around in an attempt to patch up some of the nids holes in their codex. In some ways this worked but it was only a band aid over the bigger issues and results in nids having a bloat of unit selection.

Many of the nids units need to be cut down and condensed.

Couple this with the fact that almost every nid is either kind of crap at it's intended job or has weapons/rules that are contradictory to that job. Hivecrone... air superiority fighter, has a drool cannon can only target ground units and only really great against troops.

Then get into how their army wide special rules just don't function. Shadow in the Warp is literally useless. IB is a shackle. Synapse provides fearless, but I am more and more of the opinion that it shouldn't (there are other still fluffy ways to provide nids with great moral checks when in synapse that doesn't just remove whole mechanics of the game from them).

And then look at their costs! The norn crown costs 40 points to increase Synapse by 6". Insane! If you're synapse web is only hanging on because one synapse creature has an extra 6" of synapse range then you have already lost the game.


You cannot make nids competitive with any 1 change. They need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

To be fair about the Norn Crown, there's lots of relics that are pretty overpriced. That's not an issue unique to them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair about the Norn Crown, there's lots of relics that are pretty overpriced. That's not an issue unique to them.

To be fair about other relics, the rest of them actually do something.

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Because that 4 point model isn't good currently and could use a buff?

Other armies use transports to get their infantry from place to place, which allow units to travel significantly faster than footslogging, while providing a fair bit of extra protection.
Given that tyranids have to do without them, they need something to make up for it. Speed seems like a good answer, and the beast unit type is very thematically fitting.


Tyranids actually were faster than most other armies back around 4th edition and earlier.
Before running was introduced as a core mechanic that everyone could do, most tyranids had Fleet of Claw, which did basically the same thing (also allowing assaults afterwards IIRC).

When 5th edition came along, suddenly everyone could run, and tyranids were no faster than anyone else. They never got that speed back.

Ynneadwraith wrote:Give all Tyranid organisms the Beast USR.

This may be a stupid question, but what IS the Beast USR?

Are you speaking of the Beast Unit Type? That's a different thing. If you make the Beast Unit Type global, then you have to add in all sorts of USRs in to the Monstrous Creatures that currently exist and the Harpy and Hive Crone would have to have their rules rewritten. In addition, there are some units which probably should not have such movement capacity.

As has been said, some should be changed from Infantry to Beasts, and some could use a Monstrous Beast rule akin to what they did with the Chaos Maulerfiend's movement, but that is not as quick a fix to the army as is actually needed.

But their "Wargear", point tallies, and Special Rules are what needs to be addressed the most, with a stat here and there as well.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair about the Norn Crown, there's lots of relics that are pretty overpriced. That's not an issue unique to them.

To be fair about other relics, the rest of them actually do something.

LOL like that 25 point bad power fist for Guard? Or that gak sword for Dark Angels when the Mace is readily available? The Armor Indomitable LOSING rules and staying the same price?


Please don't pretend all the other relics really do something. Every codex has a good relic that stands out and one that's just balls awful.

Well! A lot of discussion

As with a lot of understrength codexes (Dark Eldar come to mind), it's definitely not a quick fix, and going back and rewriting the codex to fit 7th is probably the best way forwards.

I definitely agree that some units don't fit the Beast unit type (apologies, it's not a USR, that's my mistake). Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Carnifexes etc. probably shouldn't be moving 12" a turn. TBH Zoanthropes should be hanging around at the back like other HS choices, but they're pressed into synapse duty by the fact that Warriors are pants.

The thing one simple rules change is that it can be enacted as a patch in an easily produced supplement, bridging the gap between a codex rewrite.

I guess it's wishful thinking either way, but I was definitely wondering how much of an effect it would have if you house-ruled it or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:IIt gets Beast because it is a faster moving creature than usual, and it has T3 6+.

I don't care about the fluff.

I'm asking from a game mechanics standpoint.

We're talking about models that cost 4 ppm. Why should a 4 ppm model have the beast special rule?


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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Because that 4 point model isn't good currently and could use a buff?

How good do you want a 4 point model to be? A termagaunt should be less than a third as good as a tactical marine with boltgun. If it's EVEN a third as good, it's undercosted. It should be LESS than a third as good.


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Formosa wrote:Explain to us why they should have to pay for beasts when no one else pays for there special rules

Termagaunts are 4 ppm.

A tactical marine with boltgun is 14 ppm.

A guardsman with lasgun and no upgrades is 5 ppm.

A chaos cultist without upgrades is 4 ppm.

I'm sorry, but NO. A termagaunt should not be a beast at only 4 ppm. Then they would be OP in comparison to things like cultists and guardsmen.

Everytime I fought Nids in 7th that wasn't spore field cheese or flyrant spam it basically boiled down to the following.
1. Overwhelming numbers that I gun/chop down but they are also cutting through my own guys.
2. Synapse units start to die
3. Nid army falls to pieces because they go from combat effective to pants on head garbage and get swept.

Having more speed would help them against shooty armies but across the board their biggest weakness is how easy it is to kill those synapse creatures which makes the bulk of the rest of the army useless. Granted I don't encounter Nid players very often so my experience is limited but it just doesn't seem like the right fix to help the faction. Personally I would like to see what impact would giving things in synapse Eternal Warrior would have.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Because that 4 point model isn't good currently and could use a buff?

How good do you want a 4 point model to be? A termagaunt should be less than a third as good as a tactical marine with boltgun. If it's EVEN a third as good, it's undercosted. It should be LESS than a third as good.

I want a 4 point model to be worth its 4 point cost. Termagants are currently are worth less then that

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Well! A lot of discussion

As with a lot of understrength codexes (Dark Eldar come to mind), it's definitely not a quick fix, and going back and rewriting the codex to fit 7th is probably the best way forwards.

I definitely agree that some units don't fit the Beast unit type (apologies, it's not a USR, that's my mistake). Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Carnifexes etc. probably shouldn't be moving 12" a turn. TBH Zoanthropes should be hanging around at the back like other HS choices, but they're pressed into synapse duty by the fact that Warriors are pants.

The thing one simple rules change is that it can be enacted as a patch in an easily produced supplement, bridging the gap between a codex rewrite.

I guess it's wishful thinking either way, but I was definitely wondering how much of an effect it would have if you house-ruled it or something.

I wonder how much you understand Tyranids? You say a Carnifex shouldn't be moving 12", and maybe that is a bit too much, but for a unit that has always meant to be melee focused only being able to move 6" has been a huge liability for it, it needs to be much faster so that it can get into combat. And Zoanthropes have always been a Psychic support unit, using Synapse and it's psychic powers to support the army with short range psychic attacks, it has never been meant as a back line HS unit.

 Imateria wrote:

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Well! A lot of discussion

As with a lot of understrength codexes (Dark Eldar come to mind), it's definitely not a quick fix, and going back and rewriting the codex to fit 7th is probably the best way forwards.

I definitely agree that some units don't fit the Beast unit type (apologies, it's not a USR, that's my mistake). Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Carnifexes etc. probably shouldn't be moving 12" a turn. TBH Zoanthropes should be hanging around at the back like other HS choices, but they're pressed into synapse duty by the fact that Warriors are pants.

The thing one simple rules change is that it can be enacted as a patch in an easily produced supplement, bridging the gap between a codex rewrite.

I guess it's wishful thinking either way, but I was definitely wondering how much of an effect it would have if you house-ruled it or something.

I wonder how much you understand Tyranids? You say a Carnifex shouldn't be moving 12", and maybe that is a bit too much, but for a unit that has always meant to be melee focused only being able to move 6" has been a huge liability for it, it needs to be much faster so that it can get into combat. And Zoanthropes have always been a Psychic support unit, using Synapse and it's psychic powers to support the army with short range psychic attacks, it has never been meant as a back line HS unit.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Carnifex being able to move, Run in the Shooting Phase, and still be able to charge. That actually seems like a happy medium between the 12" move distance.

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:IIt gets Beast because it is a faster moving creature than usual, and it has T3 6+.

I don't care about the fluff.

I'm asking from a game mechanics standpoint.

We're talking about models that cost 4 ppm. Why should a 4 ppm model have the beast special rule?


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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Because that 4 point model isn't good currently and could use a buff?

How good do you want a 4 point model to be? A termagaunt should be less than a third as good as a tactical marine with boltgun. If it's EVEN a third as good, it's undercosted. It should be LESS than a third as good.


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Formosa wrote:Explain to us why they should have to pay for beasts when no one else pays for there special rules

Termagaunts are 4 ppm.

A tactical marine with boltgun is 14 ppm.

A guardsman with lasgun and no upgrades is 5 ppm.

A chaos cultist without upgrades is 4 ppm.

I'm sorry, but NO. A termagaunt should not be a beast at only 4 ppm. Then they would be OP in comparison to things like cultists and guardsmen.

A space Marine is 14pts, free chapter tactics, free frag/krak, free atsknf.

20/25pts per model of rules and gear before we factor in stat line

4pt gaunt with beast and then still has to pay for everything....

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:IIt gets Beast because it is a faster moving creature than usual, and it has T3 6+.

I don't care about the fluff.

I'm asking from a game mechanics standpoint.

We're talking about models that cost 4 ppm. Why should a 4 ppm model have the beast special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Please explain to me why a 4 ppm model should have the beast USR.

Because that 4 point model isn't good currently and could use a buff?

How good do you want a 4 point model to be? A termagaunt should be less than a third as good as a tactical marine with boltgun. If it's EVEN a third as good, it's undercosted. It should be LESS than a third as good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:Explain to us why they should have to pay for beasts when no one else pays for there special rules

Termagaunts are 4 ppm.

A tactical marine with boltgun is 14 ppm.

A guardsman with lasgun and no upgrades is 5 ppm.

A chaos cultist without upgrades is 4 ppm.

I'm sorry, but NO. A termagaunt should not be a beast at only 4 ppm. Then they would be OP in comparison to things like cultists and guardsmen.

Because that makes up for lack of speed, duh. Do you think before you type?

 Imateria wrote:


I wonder how much you understand Tyranids? You say a Carnifex shouldn't be moving 12", and maybe that is a bit too much, but for a unit that has always meant to be melee focused only being able to move 6" has been a huge liability for it, it needs to be much faster so that it can get into combat. And Zoanthropes have always been a Psychic support unit, using Synapse and it's psychic powers to support the army with short range psychic attacks, it has never been meant as a back line HS unit.

Very much this.

This may actually be suprising for some younger players, but when Tyranids were first introduced in 2nd ed, almost entire range of units had 6" movement stat, except for Zoantropes, Biovores and Rippers (basic Eldar movement was 5" back then, with only the fastest units having 6" movement, while Space Marines had 4" movement stat on almost everything). Even Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants were fast monsters and the entire army was a built around fast movement in 3rd and 4th ed. The current codex becomes much more coherent and adequate if you just speed up appropriate units to their previous incarnations. Of course this is not the only thing that the current codex is lacking (and this change alone does not make Nids competetive in modern terms), but it at least begins to have some sense.

It's easy for a Carnifex to get Fleet.

You could make adrenal glands cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: holding enemies in place while your other units move up is what The Horror and pinning weapons are there for; I'm pretty sure as I mentioned above that the high-S low-AP antitank weapons are designed to do this as well, since they won't kill a vehicle but will render it immobile just fine.