Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vankraken wrote:
Personally I would like to see what impact would giving things in synapse Eternal Warrior would have.

Now that's interesting. I've long heard the complaint that Warriors really aren't up to the job that they're supposed to do (providing added muscle but primarily expanding the synapse web).

Making them tougher would solve the issue of them being IDed by tons of things, but would bring other balance problems with it.

Giving synapse creatures Eternal Warrior would be a nice little buff that would solve a lot of the gameplay issues with Tyranids by the sounds of things, and again would be simple enough to include as a buff from a formation in a supplement, as that seems to be the direction of travel for GW codex releases recently.

I agree that 6" movement for a Carnifex would be limiting its usability, but I like the idea of the run and charge thing as a happy medium.

What about immunity to ID from double Strength?

Termingaunts at 4 points as beasts is fine.

But that makes them much, much stronger than 3 point gretchen, and about in line with a 6pt. choppa boy.

So if we do that, make grots 2 pts, and boyz 4 points, with the shoota option free.

I kind of liked the idea of making it so all nids in synapse gain FNP 6+ (including the synapse creature) while giving the actual synapse creatures EW.

The entire army is guaranteed a tee shirt save because of it (which gives the horde a small measure of survivability) and the Synapse creatures become immune to instant death which means they still get their FNP on high str weapons.

I also think they should loose fearless and gain a rule: Driven By the Hive Mind: Any friendly tyranid unit with a model at least partially within synapse range uses the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature for all rules purposes.

Now they can go to ground, can fail moral checks, must make all the tests everyone else does. But is generally making those tests on a 10 ld with stubborn. It's fluffy without making the army immune to entire core mechanics of the game.

Formosa 706837 wrote:A space Marine is 14pts, free chapter tactics, free frag/krak, free atsknf.

20/25pts per model of rules and gear before we factor in stat line

4pt gaunt with beast and then still has to pay for everything....

1. How'd you do the math? I certainly agree that chapter tactics, grenades and ATSKNF is worth something, but how did you come up with that number?

And even if you're doing the math right, did you take into account the law of diminishing returns?

2. Do you really want to say that a marine is 5-6+ times as good as a termagaunt? 5-6+ times as good as a chaos cultist with ccw and pistol? 4-5 times as good as a guardsman with lasgun?

How do you figure? Does a marine with boltgun hold objectives 4-6 times as better? Does he shoot 4-6 times better? Does he assault 4-6 times better?

And do you really want to assert that a termagaunt with the beast unit type would be EXACTLY as good as a chaos cultist with ccw and pistol and only SLIGHTLY inferior to a gaurdsman with lasgun?

I agree that termagaunts aren't great. But again, we're talking about something that's 4 ppm and benefits from synapse. 10 termagaunts is already better (and CHEAPER!) than 10 chaos cultists without upgrades.

 Lance845 wrote:
I kind of liked the idea of making it so all nids in synapse gain FNP 6+ (including the synapse creature) while giving the actual synapse creatures EW.

The entire army is guaranteed a tee shirt save because of it (which gives the horde a small measure of survivability) and the Synapse creatures become immune to instant death which means they still get their FNP on high str weapons.

I also think they should loose fearless and gain a rule: Driven By the Hive Mind: Any friendly tyranid unit with a model at least partially within synapse range uses the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature for all rules purposes.

Now they can go to ground, can fail moral checks, must make all the tests everyone else does. But is generally making those tests on a 10 ld with stubborn. It's fluffy without making the army immune to entire core mechanics of the game.

While I like this idea as a mechanic - I don't think it's entirely fluffy. For me, what makes the tyranids such a threat is that they do not care about death at all. At no point that I'm aware of in the fluff have tyranids under synapse control fled, been pinned etc. The fact is that they just don't feel the fear that is represented by these tests, I like that under synapse they are immune. (I also like that they are not fearless once that has been removed)

NG77 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I kind of liked the idea of making it so all nids in synapse gain FNP 6+ (including the synapse creature) while giving the actual synapse creatures EW.

The entire army is guaranteed a tee shirt save because of it (which gives the horde a small measure of survivability) and the Synapse creatures become immune to instant death which means they still get their FNP on high str weapons.

I also think they should loose fearless and gain a rule: Driven By the Hive Mind: Any friendly tyranid unit with a model at least partially within synapse range uses the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature for all rules purposes.

Now they can go to ground, can fail moral checks, must make all the tests everyone else does. But is generally making those tests on a 10 ld with stubborn. It's fluffy without making the army immune to entire core mechanics of the game.

While I like this idea as a mechanic - I don't think it's entirely fluffy. For me, what makes the tyranids such a threat is that they do not care about death at all. At no point that I'm aware of in the fluff have tyranids under synapse control fled, been pinned etc. The fact is that they just don't feel the fear that is represented by these tests, I like that under synapse they are immune. (I also like that they are not fearless once that has been removed)

Yes, but the Hive Mind is also not idiotic. While it is happy to send everything forward in droves it has used tactics to bait people into traps. It does lay ambushes. It will have units go to ground.

In that massive ork battle currently happening the nids will send forward groups to die on purpose. Fall back to look weak and let them get over run. Then start a fight someplace else to pull the orks away. Send in the feeder organisms to gather up the biomass of the fallen nids and any orks they killed to be used to produce more nids, rinse and repeat.

Fearless is powerful because it allows you to ignore mechanics. But it also bottle necks you into doing a single thing. March forward always regardless. The Hive Mind has always been more cunning then that. A very reliable Ld for making all checks allows you to run forward in the same way. But now you CAN take cover and go to ground. You can lay ambushes. You can make use of terrain more effectively.

I like the idea that different synapse creatures could provide different bonuses. For example, maybe Zoanthropes can confer AW on top of the regular bonuses.

Alright:

I'm going to offer some constructive points now:

I've played against tyrranids quite a bit, and I think that I have a pretty decent feel for how the army operates, for its short-comings, where it shines, etc.

I also play against it with things like missile launchers, sternguard in rhinos, flamethrowers, etc. I don't use bikes, drop pods, grav, centurions or librarians.

The tyrranids army is a relatively slow moving army that relies primarily on short-ranged shooting and the assault phase. It's forced to move relatively slowly because of the synapse special rule. Everything has to stay in a relatively tightly closed formation. Even more so when you have specific creatures granting more rules (e.g., shrouded). Many models have multiple wounds at what seem, at least to me, to be discount rates.

The tyrranids army shines when it comes to close combat and when it comes to 18 range or less shooting. They do very poorly at distances exceeding 24 inches.

The flyrant is the "strongest" unit in the codex since it is practically impossible to kill for most units in the game, since it has synpase (and therefore can go wherever it wants), is a psycher AND can fire TWELVE TWIN LINKED BS 4 S6 SHOTS PER TURN at 18 inch range.

By and large, the tyrranids army works as a cohesive army, or else, it falls apart. From the opponent's perspective, it rewards player skill (like target prioritization) and severely punishes a lack of player skill.

Note, all of this is purely descriptive. I'm not saying that any of this is a good or bad thing, nor am I saying that any of this should or should not change. I'm simply stating the facts thus far.

A big "problem" with the tyrranids army is a big problem with the game in general. 1. A select, small number of undercosted, OP bullgak. Tyrranids crumble to scatter bikes, wraithguard and grav just like practically everything else. 2. The existence of overwatch and the current "tilt" of the game in favor of primarily shooty armies.

If you take out the OP bullgak (e.g., grav, scatter bikes, etc.), tyrranids fare much better, but are still at a disadvantage to shooty armies.

Before I propose solutions, does everyone basically agree with my assessment here?

 Traditio wrote:
If you take out the OP bullgak (e.g., grav, scatter bikes, etc.), tyrranids fare much better, but are still at a disadvantage to shooty armies.

Unfortunately, OP bullgak, as you put it, DOES exist.
This proposed change factors in the "OP bullgak" you did not, therefore your knowledge on Tyranids using an unoptimised build does not reflect the competitive view on 40k, which I assume this thread is addressing.

You say yourself - Tyranids suffer to shooting. This would make them less likely to suffer so badly, by getting them in closer. However, I refuse to base an army's judgement, especially modifiying units which are not an issue, based on a select few which should be modified in some way (perhaps in another thread?).

I would support the idea of having certain Tyranid units (ie Hormagaunts, Ripper Swarms, Termagants) as Beasts, with a small price increase, around 1-2 points. They'll still die rather easy, and force a Tyranid player to consider whether to hold his bugs back in the protective bubble of Synapse and cover clouds, or throw them at the enemy to distract their fire.* It would also make template weaponry much more effective and valuable to take as the Tyranids would be reaching flamer ranges faster.

*As part of that, I would make Synapse less of a hindrance, allowing the Hormagaunts to rush forward heedlessly as per their lore suggests.

 Traditio wrote:
Alright:

I'm going to offer some constructive points now:

I've played against tyrranids quite a bit, and I think that I have a pretty decent feel for how the army operates, for its short-comings, where it shines, etc.

I also play against it with things like missile launchers, sternguard in rhinos, flamethrowers, etc. I don't use bikes, drop pods, grav, centurions or librarians.

The tyrranids army is a relatively slow moving army that relies primarily on short-ranged shooting and the assault phase. It's forced to move relatively slowly because of the synapse special rule. Everything has to stay in a relatively tightly closed formation. Even more so when you have specific creatures granting more rules (e.g., shrouded). Many models have multiple wounds at what seem, at least to me, to be discount rates.

The tyrranids army shines when it comes to close combat and when it comes to 18 range or less shooting. They do very poorly at distances exceeding 24 inches.

The flyrant is the "strongest" unit in the codex since it is practically impossible to kill for most units in the game, since it has synpase (and therefore can go wherever it wants), is a psycher AND can fire TWELVE TWIN LINKED BS 4 S6 SHOTS PER TURN at 18 inch range.

By and large, the tyrranids army works as a cohesive army, or else, it falls apart. From the opponent's perspective, it rewards player skill (like target prioritization) and severely punishes a lack of player skill.

Note, all of this is purely descriptive. I'm not saying that any of this is a good or bad thing, nor am I saying that any of this should or should not change. I'm simply stating the facts thus far.

A big "problem" with the tyrranids army is a big problem with the game in general. 1. A select, small number of undercosted, OP bullgak. Tyrranids crumble to scatter bikes, wraithguard and grav just like practically everything else. 2. The existence of overwatch and the current "tilt" of the game in favor of primarily shooty armies.

If you take out the OP bullgak (e.g., grav, scatter bikes, etc.), tyrranids fare much better, but are still at a disadvantage to shooty armies.

Before I propose solutions, does everyone basically agree with my assessment here?

I'm sorry but are you suggesting one of the reasons Tyranids have it rough is because of Grav?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'm sorry but are you suggesting one of the reasons Tyranids have it rough is because of Grav?

Absolutely. The Tyrranids codex can be broken up roughly into two sub-groups:

1. Big, expensive multi-wound MCs with 4+ or 3+ armor.

Grav tears that to shreds.

2. Cheap bodies with t-shirt saves.

Bolters tear that to shreds.

It is rediculous to argue that a particular army has problems because one faction has access to a partichlar type of gun. You dont see hoe limited a poi t of view that is?

Bolters hardly tear the swarms to shreds.

Also you freaking believe that the Flyrant should have a 4+ max because of flakk missiles. Aren't you a bit confused then on how you should think?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'm sorry but are you suggesting one of the reasons Tyranids have it rough is because of Grav?

Absolutely. The Tyrranids codex can be broken up roughly into two sub-groups:

1. Big, expensive multi-wound MCs with 4+ or 3+ armor.

Grav tears that to shreds.

2. Cheap bodies with t-shirt saves.

Bolters tear that to shreds.

Those are only Space Marine weapons, we should keep in mind. A very prevalent faction in the gaming community, sure, but still only one possible explanation to why Tyranids are no good using some of the facts presented.

It is of my personal opinion that basic Tyranid organisms should be faster. Both Termagants and Hormagaunts are very poorly armed and armoured - they should be able to make up for this with numbers and speed.

 Traditio wrote:

Formosa 706837 wrote:A space Marine is 14pts, free chapter tactics, free frag/krak, free atsknf.

20/25pts per model of rules and gear before we factor in stat line

4pt gaunt with beast and then still has to pay for everything....

1. How'd you do the math? I certainly agree that chapter tactics, grenades and ATSKNF is worth something, but how did you come up with that number?

And even if you're doing the math right, did you take into account the law of diminishing returns?

2. Do you really want to say that a marine is 5-6+ times as good as a termagaunt? 5-6+ times as good as a chaos cultist with ccw and pistol? 4-5 times as good as a guardsman with lasgun?

How do you figure? Does a marine with boltgun hold objectives 4-6 times as better? Does he shoot 4-6 times better? Does he assault 4-6 times better?

And do you really want to assert that a termagaunt with the beast unit type would be EXACTLY as good as a chaos cultist with ccw and pistol and only SLIGHTLY inferior to a gaurdsman with lasgun?

I agree that termagaunts aren't great. But again, we're talking about something that's 4 ppm and benefits from synapse. 10 termagaunts is already better (and CHEAPER!) than 10 chaos cultists without upgrades.

Frag and krak 5pts per model, atsknf 5pts per model, depending on chapter tactic between 5 and 10pts per model, that's what these things should cost, but that would make marines unplayable, so they get the rules for free, beast for gaunts is the same concept and as other armies don't pay for certain upgrades, why should tyranids be any different.

The best example is elder, blade storm free, extra wound on exarchs free, shoot/run run/shoot free, it just goes on with eldar.

Formosa wrote:Frag and krak 5pts per model

This isn't really fair. 1. Many other units get grenades as part of their model cost. Chaos space marines come to mind. 2. If you're thinking of guardsmen, guardsmen don't pay 5 ppm for krak and frag grenades. At 5 ppm, they come stock with frag grenades. For an additional 10 points per unit (IoW, 1 ppm), you can give the unit krak grenades. So, no, you're just wrong on this.

atsknf 5pts per model

What are you basing this number on?

depending on chapter tactic between 5 and 10pts per model

Again, what are you basing this number on? CSM marks don't cost 5-10 points per model. And even with marks, CSM are generally agreed to be underpowered/overcosted.

that's what these things should cost, but that would make marines unplayable

If it would make marines unplayable, then that's not what those things "should" cost. Ideally, any model with a points cost of x would be exactly on par with any other comparable model of the same points cost. This is what I meant before: you didn't take into account diminishing returns in giving me your number of what marines "should" cost.

Thus my point: I think that units like grots, guardsmen and cultists would have something nasty to say about 4 point termagaunts with the beast unit type.

beast for gaunts is the same concept and as other armies don't pay for certain upgrades, why should tyranids be any different.

The best example is elder, blade storm free, extra wound on exarchs free, shoot/run run/shoot free, it just goes on with eldar.

I'm not objecting to termagaunts getting "free" rules. My point is that 4 ppm would not be a fair assessment of the value of a termagaunt if it had the beast unit type. Again, compare to guardsmen, grots and cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Annoyance wrote:Those are only Space Marine weapons, we should keep in mind. A very prevalent faction in the gaming community, sure, but still only one possible explanation to why Tyranids are no good using some of the facts presented.

I'm not saying that Tyrranids are "bad" ONLY because of grav. I'm saying that tyrranids are generally "bad" because of things LIKE grav.

Non-flyrant lists can't compete with grav. They can't compete with scatter bikes. They can't compete with wraithknights. They can't compete with wraithguard. They can't compete with wave serpents. They can't compete with the Tau.

I could go on. But ultimately, the list of things that I am going to come up with is going to be in the minority when it comes to the entirety of things that are able to be played.

The tyrranid do not need to be raised to OP competitive levels as a codex.

The OP stuff needs to be nerfed, some core rules need to change to "balance" shooting and assaulting (example: no more overwatch), and the Tau need to be squatted.

That would make things much more fair for tyrranid players...and everyone else.

Illustration of my point:

Can termagaunts compete with tactical marines with bolters? More or less. For 85 points, I get a 5 man tactical squad with a missile launcher...and the tyrranid player gets roughly 21 termagaunts (which are likely going to start the game fearless and shrouded).

That's already fair enough as is. They don't need the "beast" unit type in addition.

It is of my personal opinion that basic Tyranid organisms should be faster. Both Termagants and Hormagaunts are very poorly armed and armoured - they should be able to make up for this with numbers and speed.

No they don't. Again, "4 ppm." Termagaunts are about as good as they should be given their points cost.

 Traditio wrote:


I'm not saying that Tyrranids are "bad" ONLY because of grav. I'm saying that tyrranids are generally "bad" because of things LIKE grav.

Nope. You're wrong.

Tyranids are not bad because of things OUTSIDE their codex. If that was the case you could make a few changes in other codexes and Nids would be fixed. Nids are bad because their codex is bad. Grav has nothing to do with it. If you want to see why nids are bad it's between the front and back cover of one book. And then if you want to see why they continue to be bad it's between the front and back covers of 2 other books (IA: Anphelion Project and Shield of Baal Leviathan). You are SO BAD at objectively narrowing down both what the problems with the game are and what the sources of those problems are. SO BAD. It's almost unbelievable.

If you are attempting to tackle the issues of the nid dex by pointing a finger at the issues of the space marine dex you are so misguided, so far off the mark, that nothing you could possibly propose could ever actually address ANY of the issues you made this thread about.

You are wrong.


Overwatch is not what makes shooting more powerful than assault. Removing overwatch will not suddenly make assault viable. The many MANY things that make it so you can get closer to the enemy but then have to wait around a full turn before you can assault is what makes shooting more powerful. The random charge range vs a flat shooting range is what makes shooting more viable. Overwatch is insignificant. A pile of shots that hit on 6s and still need to wound and pass saves is statistically insignificant. It's a waste of all players time for what little effect it actually has on the game.

If I don't make it into assault it's never because of overwatch. It's because I have to move (without running) to get within 7 or less inches of the enemy unit to have a statistically positive chance to assault and then STILL might roll snake eyes and end up staring at the target for another turn.

How are you SO BAD at this?

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Unfortunately, OP bullgak, as you put it, DOES exist.

This proposed change factors in the "OP bullgak" you did not, therefore your knowledge on Tyranids using an unoptimised build does not reflect the competitive view on 40k, which I assume this thread is addressing.

That's the thing, though. If you want to take OP bullgak into account, there are two viable ways of dealing with it:

1. Make everything else equally OP.

2. Nerf the OP bullgak.

I don't know whether or not making all Tyrranids beasts would be OP. I do think, however, that it would make at least some tyrranids units undercosted.

4 ppm termagaunts with the beast unit type would be, generally speaking, better than other models of the same points cost.

If the concern is simply which unit is better (and not which is more fluffy or has a better model, etc.):

Would you rather take 50 points of cultists with just auto pistols and ccws? Or 12 and a half termagaunts with the beast special rule?

No contest. You'd take the termagaunts. All day long.

And the simple fact is that if you just give tyrranids codex-wide buffs to make them "competitive" with the OP stuff in the game, then you are only indirectly nerfing other things.

Do my tac marines without grav really need a nerf? Do my assault marines with flamethrowers really need a nerf? Do my sternguard really need a nerf? Do my devastator marines without grav really need a nerf?

You say yourself - Tyranids suffer to shooting. This would make them less likely to suffer so badly, by getting them in closer.

But then you run the risk of imbalancing the game AGAINST shooting armies. And you don't want that either. Assaults, at least in this game, are an extremely delicate/difficult thing to balance because assaults by their very nature are so imbalanced. Yes, it's difficult to get into close combat. But it's also difficult to escape from close combat, and you can't shoot into close combat either.

I would support the idea of having certain Tyranid units (ie Hormagaunts, Ripper Swarms, Termagants) as Beasts, with a small price increase, around 1-2 points.

Depending on the points increase, I would be fine with this. Ultimately, my point is just this: nothing should be OP. Whatever set of rules you end up with, you should have to pay the appropriate points cost for it.

4 ppm termagaunts with the beast special rule are not fine. 6 ppm? Maybe. I'm not sure about that. But definitely not 4 ppm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote: Nids are bad because their codex is bad.

Balance is relative.

Overwatch is not what makes shooting more powerful than assault.

Did I say it was?

What makes Gaunts OP with Beast? You have yet to really explain that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What makes Gaunts OP with Beast? You have yet to really explain that.

The simple answer is that they would be disproportionately better than other comparable models of the same points cost.

Again, would you rather the 4 ppm termagaunt with the beast unit type or the 4 ppm cultist?

They can have guns that have more shots for a single PPM, rather than the 4 PPM it takes on a Termagaunt.

They're better in CC base, having 2 attacks rather than 1, thanks to CCW and Pistol.

They have a higher leadership, and don't rely on synpase.

They have more options, like flamers and stubbers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They can have guns that have more shots for a single PPM, rather than the 4 PPM it takes on a Termagaunt.

And fire at S3, AP -.

You're missing that point.

They're better in CC base, having 2 attacks rather than 1

Termagaunts have S4 assault guns.

They have a higher leadership, and don't rely on synpase.

Don't "rely" on synapse? That's a complete load of malarky.

Synapse is a blessing, not a curse, at least in the early game. If you kill half of my cultist squad on turn 1, my cultists very well might run off the table. If I shoot your termagaunts on turn 1 and kill half the squad, they won't. And in addition, those termagaunts probably have the shrouded special rule.

They have more options, like flamers and stubbers.

But at that point, you're no longer comparing a 4 point model to a 4 point model. The 4 point model is the ccw + pistol...a 4 point model that MUST be taken in a unit of 10, and a unit that MUST include a 14+ ppm chaos cultist campion.

No need to kill those termagants. Just kill the synapse creatures nearby and they will happily run off the table all by themselves.


Tyranids are not supposed to be a slow army. As previously stated in this thread, in 4th edition and earlier they had possibly the fastest infantry in the game.
This is needed, as they're the only army in the game that doesn't have transports for those infantry.

It's only since 5th edition and the much maligned cruddex that they've become this slow plodding force.

 Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lance845 wrote: Nids are bad because their codex is bad.

Balance is relative.

Cohesive rules are not relative. The Nid dex does not contain cohesive rules. It mostly contains contradictory rules, units with no focus or direct purpose, rules that no longer apply to the current game edition, and rules that are so poorly written it literally means that the entire table suffers hits.

Overwatch is not what makes shooting more powerful than assault.

Did I say it was?

Yes. You did.

 Traditio wrote:

The OP stuff needs to be nerfed, some core rules need to change to "balance" shooting and assaulting (example: no more overwatch), and the Tau need to be squatted.
t

 Traditio wrote:

Formosa wrote:Frag and krak 5pts per model

This isn't really fair. 1. Many other units get grenades as part of their model cost. Chaos space marines come to mind. 2. If you're thinking of guardsmen, guardsmen don't pay 5 ppm for krak and frag grenades. At 5 ppm, they come stock with frag grenades. For an additional 10 points per unit (IoW, 1 ppm), you can give the unit krak grenades. So, no, you're just wrong on this.

atsknf 5pts per model

What are you basing this number on?

depending on chapter tactic between 5 and 10pts per model

Again, what are you basing this number on? CSM marks don't cost 5-10 points per model. And even with marks, CSM are generally agreed to be underpowered/overcosted.

that's what these things should cost, but that would make marines unplayable

If it would make marines unplayable, then that's not what those things "should" cost. Ideally, any model with a points cost of x would be exactly on par with any other comparable model of the same points cost. This is what I meant before: you didn't take into account diminishing returns in giving me your number of what marines "should" cost.

Thus my point: I think that units like grots, guardsmen and cultists would have something nasty to say about 4 point termagaunts with the beast unit type.

beast for gaunts is the same concept and as other armies don't pay for certain upgrades, why should tyranids be any different.

The best example is elder, blade storm free, extra wound on exarchs free, shoot/run run/shoot free, it just goes on with eldar.

I'm not objecting to termagaunts getting "free" rules. My point is that 4 ppm would not be a fair assessment of the value of a termagaunt if it had the beast unit type. Again, compare to guardsmen, grots and cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Annoyance wrote:Those are only Space Marine weapons, we should keep in mind. A very prevalent faction in the gaming community, sure, but still only one possible explanation to why Tyranids are no good using some of the facts presented.

I'm not saying that Tyrranids are "bad" ONLY because of grav. I'm saying that tyrranids are generally "bad" because of things LIKE grav.

Non-flyrant lists can't compete with grav. They can't compete with scatter bikes. They can't compete with wraithknights. They can't compete with wraithguard. They can't compete with wave serpents. They can't compete with the Tau.

I could go on. But ultimately, the list of things that I am going to come up with is going to be in the minority when it comes to the entirety of things that are able to be played.

The tyrranid do not need to be raised to OP competitive levels as a codex.

The OP stuff needs to be nerfed, some core rules need to change to "balance" shooting and assaulting (example: no more overwatch), and the Tau need to be squatted.

That would make things much more fair for tyrranid players...and everyone else.

Illustration of my point:

Can termagaunts compete with tactical marines with bolters? More or less. For 85 points, I get a 5 man tactical squad with a missile launcher...and the tyrranid player gets roughly 21 termagaunts (which are likely going to start the game fearless and shrouded).

That's already fair enough as is. They don't need the "beast" unit type in addition.

It is of my personal opinion that basic Tyranid organisms should be faster. Both Termagants and Hormagaunts are very poorly armed and armoured - they should be able to make up for this with numbers and speed.

No they don't. Again, "4 ppm." Termagaunts are about as good as they should be given their points cost.

Frag/krak were 2 /3 pts respectively so the cost is accurate, marines started getting them for free, then so did everyone else.

Atsknf is pseudo fearless , give over run immunity and auto regroup, 5pts is more than fair for those abilities.

Chaos should not pay for Mark's as marines do not pay for chapter tactics, or both should pay, hit and run plus scout is easily worth 10pts per model, fnp6+ iwnd is easily worth 10pts, others are easily worth between 5/10pts per model, but are free.

Grots guard and cultists all have other things going for them and could do with buffs of there own, except maybe cultists, but this discussion is about beast for nids, I'd happily discuss buffing the others in another thread.

Assigning points values to rules and such is trying to look at the rules in a vacuum and not in their application. Should counter attack on a Gretchen cost the same as counter attack on Meganobz? Should furious charge cost the same for Gaunts, Flayed Ones, Chapter Masters, Dreadnoughts? I could slap on every USR on a Gretchen but at the end of the day its a T2 1 wound model who dies to a stiff breeze (at least stealth + shrouded would help a lot ). It is also the reason while certain power weapons are garbage on a tactical marine but are auto takes on something like a captain or thunderwolf cav which has a better stat line to utilize that 15 point upgrade. Again giving a Grot a Power Klaw is not the same as giving a Klaw to a Nob or Warboss.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
They have a higher leadership, and don't rely on synpase.

Don't "rely" on synapse? That's a complete load of malarky.

Synapse is a blessing, not a curse, at least in the early game. If you kill half of my cultist squad on turn 1, my cultists very well might run off the table. If I shoot your termagaunts on turn 1 and kill half the squad, they won't. And in addition, those termagaunts probably have the shrouded special rule.

The whole Synapse, Instinctive Behavior, and the generally garbage leadership on the small bugs is why they rely on Synapse and one of the huge Achilles heel of the army. In a game of SWs vs Nids I went from being stuck in a slog of CC slowly losing to a flood of gaunts to wiping the board almost entirely in one because an Iron Priest killed the last Zoanthroap and I think my Wolf Scouts sniped out a Tyrant or some other big bug. Boom just like that the Nid army went from winning the grind to completely dead because synapse fell which made the army get obliterated. Little bugs rely on Synapse to stay alive and without it they are more pointless than Gretchen with Eternal Warrior.

 Traditio wrote:


Non-flyrant lists can't compete with grav. They can't compete with scatter bikes. They can't compete with wraithknights. They can't compete with wraithguard. They can't compete with wave serpents.

If there is enough terrain on the table so it is not a flat wasteland, list-tailored Tyranids can compete easily (point-to-point) with anything on this list except for Wraithknights (which take a bit too much poison attacks and army focus to kill to call it "easily" but is perfectly doable). Combi-assault of one unit of Gargoyles/Skyslashers and one unit of Toxin Sacs Hormagaunts shred D-Scythes Wraithguard to pieces and Wraithguard generally is a poor choice against horde Tyranids. Wave Serpents can be hunted down by CC Shrikes and rear-glanced to death. And if you're having troubles with scatter bikes you took to few DS ripper swarms/skyslashers or CC bodies to glue bikes to the ground. Almost anything Craftworld can be shredded by Devourer Termagaunts in a Tyrranocyte and the list can easily go on... Take it from someone who's main matchup is Eldar vs Nids and have played a close to a hundred games with various builds on both sides.

The problem with horde Tyranids is because you HAVE TO build synapse net, you end up with a poor TAC lists (so almost nothing of the above will happen if you have to build a tournament, not tailored list), which are higly vulnerable to pinpointing crucial nodes - something that no other army have to worry about. So the only competetish builds are Nidzilla or Flyrant spam armies, because they are usually all-synapse. Nids will almost always lose on flat terrain, even with a lot of Venomtropes or Malantropes to provide Shrouded, but can be a formidable opponent on terrain heavy tables - but that is not a typical competetive context.

You would know all this, if you had any real experience with Tyranids. You would know all this, if you ever played Nids by yourself. And you would know the most basic fact that you repeatedly ignore - Instinctive Behaviour IS a liability and Fearless within Synapse (while powerfull) is not an equlizer, so basic point costs of all basic gaunts must factor their dependency on other units. This is why you cannot directly compare Cultists or Guards to Termagaunts the way you do it.

And seriously, if you knew antyhing about history of this army in previous editions (not fluff, but tabletop "feel"), you would know that Hormagaunts or Genestealers were THE stand-alone troop choices and that Termagaunts are a thing because of Tervigons and that Tyranids are not intended to be a "slow, shooty, tightly deployed army" but a the fastest CC army with acces to cheap Drop Pod equivalent and good close range shooting with very scarce backfield units.

But you cannot comperhend that, because you think that everything should work and be costed like Space Marines/IG with differently looking models and only then we would have ballance. Seriously, go educate yourself on ballancing asymetric games already, as you repeatedly and completely miss the point in your "analysis" of various WH40K problems... A hint on where to look: in asymetric free-pick games each faction should have their unique unit availability structure (separate from point costs), factoring in all their strenghts and weaknesses and be ballanced predominantly on army-to-army structure level, with unit-to-unit point efficiency levels compared only to prevent large discrepancies (not provide "statistical equality of any unit in the game") and definately not on upgrade-to-upgrade point cost level... Your beloved "flat rate upgrades/USRs" approach is THE WORST POSSIBLE way to resolve ballance issues in asymetric games...

I dont want a Tyranid "quick fix" GW tried that with many formation, WD's and other books, "Quick Fixes" dont work when the Core rules of the army are completely out of whack.

Nids need a complete over haul, no "fixes".

 Traditio wrote:


Illustration of my point:

Can termagaunts compete with tactical marines with bolters? More or less. For 85 points, I get a 5 man tactical squad with a missile launcher...and the tyrranid player gets roughly 21 termagaunts (which are likely going to start the game fearless and shrouded).

That's already fair enough as is. They don't need the "beast" unit type in addition.

For 85 points you get a Tac squad with missile launcher. I get 21 termagants with NO support. If you factor in the Venomthrope and Flyrant, you have to factor in other units for your Tac Squad.