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 Happyjew wrote:

 Traditio wrote:


Illustration of my point:

Can termagaunts compete with tactical marines with bolters? More or less. For 85 points, I get a 5 man tactical squad with a missile launcher...and the tyrranid player gets roughly 21 termagaunts (which are likely going to start the game fearless and shrouded).

That's already fair enough as is. They don't need the "beast" unit type in addition.

For 85 points you get a Tac squad with missile launcher. I get 21 termagants with NO support. If you factor in the Venomthrope and Flyrant, you have to factor in other units for your Tac Squad.

@traditio: if you want to compare termagaunts with fearless counted in, then for 90 points you get 10 fleshborer termagaunts and a Zoantrope to babysit them (the cheapest synapse). Now do the math: about 4 of those Termagaunts survive moving through your bolter fire range (one voley of far range bolter fire and one voley of rapid fire range, not including missile launcher shot) and the only thing that has enough durability to actually kill at least a single Marine in this encounter is a lone Zoanthrope. That is if you even target Termagaunts. If you target Zoantrope instead, then he dies in a second turn of shooting (he has a small chance of throwing a single small blast at you, killing a single marine) and then Termagaunts either flee or die to bolter fire as above. There is absolutely no scenario in which Termagaunts will win such encounter on a flat table. And if you are smart and move your marines back each turn Termagaunts will never reach their shooting range (even ona a "typical" ruins table your Marines are fast enough to always controll the range and not let Termagaunts reach you). You need heavily cover/LOS blocking terrain to utilize 12" single shot fleshborers and in this entire scenario their fearless rule you pay almost 50 points for in a"Zoantrope tax" just delays the inevitable.

This scenario changes drastically if you either give Termagaunts "Fleet of Claw" back (ideally making it work as "battle focus"); or make them Beasts; or give them Mycetic spore back. Then they have a chance to actually win such encounter sometimes.

I think some units should be Beasts (Hormaguants, Rippers, Trygon/Mawlocs, etc). And before anyone comments, why not have MC-Beasts. Afterall, Jet-pack MCs, Jump MCs, Jet-pack Cavalry all exist, so precedent has been set for models with multiple unit-types

Termagaunts & Warriors probably shouldn't be Beasts, but should have Fleet at least.
Actually Fleet & MTC should be universal for all Nids (except spore mines).

-

Personally, I always liked the idea of tyranids as the innumerable, unending horde where there Is no such thing as victory, but just holding off defeat.

I'd makes termagaunts beasts, and give them some kind of 'recycle' rule where you can literally play out an unending wave. Either that or give 'free' units per synapse creature, like how in warmachine/hordes, your warcaster/warlock gets 'free' extra points for warjacks and warbeasts.
Think about it. You 'pay' for the bigger gribblies and the synapse beasts, but the horde comes alongside regardless.

Second thing I'd do (showing my age!) is reduce/remove any kind of victory points from killing tyranid 'relentless wave' units. Literally, you cannot win against them. You,have to kill them. You have no choice but to keep killing them. But yo get nothing for it. I really don't know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but it would make the tyranids on the tabletops like they are in the fluff.

Third thing I'd do is reduce the armour save on a lot of the monstrous creatures but compensate them with massive (and i mean massive) amounts of wounds. It's carapace. It's not very hard, and I can imagine bolters and whatever else shredding through it easily enough and chopping bits off. Then again, when that carnifex has forty wounds, or whatever (ok, I exaggerate, but you get the point), it can stand there and take that shredding all day long and just smile about it. It would also make tyranid mc's somewhat unique and different. Again, Like I said, I do not know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but there I should a part of my brain that is just smiling and thinking of the possibilities.

Deadnight wrote:
Personally, I always liked the idea of tyranids as the innumerable, unending horde where there Is no such thing as victory, but just holding off defeat.

I'd makes termagaunts beasts, and give them some kind of 'recycle' rule where you can literally play out an unending wave. Either that or give 'free' units per synapse creature, like how in warmachine/hordes, your warcaster/warlock gets 'free' extra points for warjacks and warbeasts.
Think about it. You 'pay' for the bigger gribblies and the synapse beasts, but the horde comes alongside regardless.

Second thing I'd do (showing my age!) is reduce/remove any kind of victory points from killing tyranid 'relentless wave' units. Literally, you cannot win against them. You,have to kill them. You have no choice but to keep killing them. But yo get nothing for it. I really don't know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but it would make the tyranids on the tabletops like they are in the fluff.

Third thing I'd do is reduce the armour save on a lot of the monstrous creatures but compensate them with massive (and i mean massive) amounts of wounds. It's carapace. It's not very hard, and I can imagine bolters and whatever else shredding through it easily enough and chopping bits off. Then again, when that carnifex has forty wounds, or whatever (ok, I exaggerate, but you get the point), it can stand there and take that shredding all day long and just smile about it. It would also make tyranid mc's somewhat unique and different. Again, Like I said, I do not know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but there I should a part of my brain that is just smiling and thinking of the possibilities.

That's good in a narrative game, but in 40k actual, or the tournament scene? Not at all. There needs to be chance for an army to win against Tyranids on the standard tabletop, and constantly regenerating units (which don't generate any kill points) and nigh-unkillable MCs would make them DOMINATE the Maelstrom scene. Fluff has to give to crunch, unfortunately.

Deadnight wrote:
Personally, I always liked the idea of tyranids as the innumerable, unending horde where there Is no such thing as victory, but just holding off defeat.

I'd makes termagaunts beasts, and give them some kind of 'recycle' rule where you can literally play out an unending wave. Either that or give 'free' units per synapse creature, like how in warmachine/hordes, your warcaster/warlock gets 'free' extra points for warjacks and warbeasts.
Think about it. You 'pay' for the bigger gribblies and the synapse beasts, but the horde comes alongside regardless.

Second thing I'd do (showing my age!) is reduce/remove any kind of victory points from killing tyranid 'relentless wave' units. Literally, you cannot win against them. You,have to kill them. You have no choice but to keep killing them. But yo get nothing for it. I really don't know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but it would make the tyranids on the tabletops like they are in the fluff.

Third thing I'd do is reduce the armour save on a lot of the monstrous creatures but compensate them with massive (and i mean massive) amounts of wounds. It's carapace. It's not very hard, and I can imagine bolters and whatever else shredding through it easily enough and chopping bits off. Then again, when that carnifex has forty wounds, or whatever (ok, I exaggerate, but you get the point), it can stand there and take that shredding all day long and just smile about it. It would also make tyranid mc's somewhat unique and different. Again, Like I said, I do not know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but there I should a part of my brain that is just smiling and thinking of the possibilities.

I houseruled Tyranid hordes to be just like that - Hormagaunts are Beasts, Termagaunts have "battle focus-esque" rule of run&shoot and both have Endless Swarm rule built in (automatic, without having to roll). And I don't play Kill Points (Modified Maelstrom mostly) so it really forces you to think heavily on grabing enough objectives and manouver your forces so they don't drown in bodies...

And I like your idea of mass wound/low armour MCs, but I think it would have to have some multiwound dealing mechanics built in to compensate for low AP weapons - they should be more usefull against MCs. But I can picture this rule easily with some Starship Troopers scenes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Personally, I always liked the idea of tyranids as the innumerable, unending horde where there Is no such thing as victory, but just holding off defeat.

I'd makes termagaunts beasts, and give them some kind of 'recycle' rule where you can literally play out an unending wave. Either that or give 'free' units per synapse creature, like how in warmachine/hordes, your warcaster/warlock gets 'free' extra points for warjacks and warbeasts.
Think about it. You 'pay' for the bigger gribblies and the synapse beasts, but the horde comes alongside regardless.

Second thing I'd do (showing my age!) is reduce/remove any kind of victory points from killing tyranid 'relentless wave' units. Literally, you cannot win against them. You,have to kill them. You have no choice but to keep killing them. But yo get nothing for it. I really don't know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but it would make the tyranids on the tabletops like they are in the fluff.

Third thing I'd do is reduce the armour save on a lot of the monstrous creatures but compensate them with massive (and i mean massive) amounts of wounds. It's carapace. It's not very hard, and I can imagine bolters and whatever else shredding through it easily enough and chopping bits off. Then again, when that carnifex has forty wounds, or whatever (ok, I exaggerate, but you get the point), it can stand there and take that shredding all day long and just smile about it. It would also make tyranid mc's somewhat unique and different. Again, Like I said, I do not know how well, or even if this would be feasible, but there I should a part of my brain that is just smiling and thinking of the possibilities.

That's good in a narrative game, but in 40k actual, or the tournament scene? Not at all. There needs to be chance for an army to win against Tyranids on the standard tabletop, and constantly regenerating units (which don't generate any kill points) and nigh-unkillable MCs would make them DOMINATE the Maelstrom scene. Fluff has to give to crunch, unfortunately.

With reasonable unit pricing returning gaunts aren't unbeatable but do provide immersive experience and nice challenge - see my comment above. And c'mon, there are Scatterbikes which are exactly on pair with such endless swarm in objective grabbing, there are things like Gladius free ob-sec transports, unkillable necrons, and Tau can still win games by mass-murdering entire waves of gaunts with skyhigh amount of firepower and sneaking upon objectives... And you already have massive numbers in summoning Demons lists and with Genestealer Cultists and people do find ways to win against them.

What Nids need is:
A) some units to be beasts, like Hormagaunt, Trygon/Mawlocs
B) a mega-formation detachment that's bonus is Endless Swarm Termiguants, Hormagaunts & Gargoyles. Units come back on a 3+

^Why would Mawlocs need to be Beasts? Their whole point is Terror from the Deep, Beast would have no effect on that and be completely wasted.

Was reading through this and saw it was suggested that grav is actually good against nid armies, please say that was put to rest lol

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

That's good in a narrative game, but in 40k actual, or the tournament scene? Not at all. There needs to be chance for an army to win against Tyranids on the standard tabletop, and constantly regenerating units (which don't generate any kill points) and nigh-unkillable MCs would make them DOMINATE the Maelstrom scene. Fluff has to give to crunch, unfortunately.

Why not? When I talk about 'you don't win against tyranids, you merely try to survive another day', I mean it figuratively. I fully understand fluff giving way to crunch, I completely respect and understand thst - I respect a lot of what yOu say smudge, and for what it's worth, I play tournament games too and understand it's requirements.

You can win against them. It just won't be by killing them all. Grab the objectives. And you will be able to kill the mc's. They might have lots of wounds (in my head, at least) but when even bolters and heavy bolters are capable of getting a very reasonable return on wounds against these things start being a lot more manageable. Recursion (bringing things back from the dead, effectively) can be a factor in games, and learning to deal with it is entirely possible as well. there are plenty armies in warmachine for example built around this idea. In fact, it was in 40k too -in earlier tyranid codices, gaunts had an unending wave ability as an option (it cost x per model though - I can't remember the precise costs though) as do some guard units - with chenkov, I believe? Also, in wfb, during one of the last big worldwide campaigns, didn't archaon have that special rule where an army led by him took twice the points value of its opponents, to represent the size and scale of his horde and his threat.

 Imateria wrote:
^Why would Mawlocs need to be Beasts? Their whole point is Terror from the Deep, Beast would have no effect on that and be completely wasted.

Mawlocs are made from the same kit as Trygons and have the same body shape. Trygons are an evolution of Raveners (which are currently Beasts). Ergo, Trygons should be Beasts and Mawlocs as well for consistency. A player can still choose to exploit Terror form the Deep. My point is that units with the snake-like body shape should be Beasts.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Was reading through this and saw it was suggested that grav is actually good against nid armies, please say that was put to rest lol

Seeing as Nid armies can have quite a few big 3+ save MCs, why would it be surprising to say that Grav is a good choice against them? Just because a group of players (including myself) think that Nids should be played all swarmy with lots of little gribblies, does not make that the most common way to play them, In 40k it is often the opposite that is true (that fluff armies are not the competitive way to play)

-

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Was reading through this and saw it was suggested that grav is actually good against nid armies, please say that was put to rest lol

Grav is effective against most of the heavy hitters of the Tyranid Army. But it has been a while since 'Nidzilla was the way to go. If the average Wound count per model of a 'Nid player's Army is 4 or higher, Grav can be amazing (assuming it can hit those Flyrants), and is far more effective than it would be against an Armour Company. However, it has been ages since that was the best way to run the Bugs.

Most of the current armies I have seen focused on the Flyrants with Termagants for Troops, Venomthropes to get everyone across the field, and maybe a couple of Big Bug Broods (sometimes Forgeworld) for some additional punch. And that was from a guy who rarely lost with 'Nids against a very competitive meta. Sure, Grav can be helpful in getting down the couple of big gribblies, but it seriously suffers when comes time to kill the Termagants.

Ohhh ok we are assuming Vs mc and such, I was gonna say, if you are saying grav is good against a sarm army...lol ok, sure I'll let the endless swarm charge at your grav, enjoy wounding on 5 and 6 lol

A side point about taking Grav against Nids is that the main platforms for Grav also come with plenty of bolter shots too, whether Hurricane bolters on Centurians, or the good ol' Bolt gun of the Tac Marines. So if you bring Grav and see loads of Gaunts, you still have a good answer.

Bolters REALLY aren't that effective against anything, and we should quit pretending that, because you brought Grav, you have an answer to Gaunts.

 Galef wrote:
A side point about taking Grav against Nids is that the main platforms for Grav also come with plenty of bolter shots too, whether Hurricane bolters on Centurians, or the good ol' Bolt gun of the Tac Marines. So if you bring Grav and see loads of Gaunts, you still have a good answer.

This was basically the point that I'm making. In the Tyrranids army, what grav cannons can't kill with ease, for the most part, bolters can.

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
A side point about taking Grav against Nids is that the main platforms for Grav also come with plenty of bolter shots too, whether Hurricane bolters on Centurians, or the good ol' Bolt gun of the Tac Marines. So if you bring Grav and see loads of Gaunts, you still have a good answer.

This was basically the point that I'm making. In the Tyrranids army, what grav cannons can't kill with ease, for the most part, bolters can.

Generally that happens to most armies, it's not specific to nids

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
A side point about taking Grav against Nids is that the main platforms for Grav also come with plenty of bolter shots too, whether Hurricane bolters on Centurians, or the good ol' Bolt gun of the Tac Marines. So if you bring Grav and see loads of Gaunts, you still have a good answer.

This was basically the point that I'm making. In the Tyrranids army, what grav cannons can't kill with ease, for the most part, bolters can.

Generally that happens to most armies, it's not specific to nids

Agreed. Mass rounds of lower AP weapons to kill lower sv hordes or super effective weapon against higher sv multi wound models. Surprise. It's effective.

Lance845 wrote:Cohesive rules are not relative.

You didn't say "cohesive." You said "bad." Non-cohesive rules aren't necessarily "bad." If all models in the game had equally non-cohesive rules and everything was just hideously "bad," then everything would be "good" and the game would be balanced just fine.

The Nid dex does not contain cohesive rules. It mostly contains contradictory rules, units with no focus or direct purpose, rules that no longer apply to the current game edition, and rules that are so poorly written it literally means that the entire table suffers hits.

What do you even mean by this? Provide examples.

Overwatch is not what makes shooting more powerful than assault.

Did I say it was?

Yes. You did.

 Traditio wrote:

The OP stuff needs to be nerfed, some core rules need to change to "balance" shooting and assaulting (example: no more overwatch), and the Tau need to be squatted.
t

 Traditio wrote:

The Nid dex does not contain cohesive rules. It mostly contains contradictory rules, units with no focus or direct purpose, rules that no longer apply to the current game edition, and rules that are so poorly written it literally means that the entire table suffers hits.

What do you even mean by this? Provide examples.

By outdated rules he probably meant the 'Shadow in the Warp' rule, which was designed for older edition when Leadership penalty actually reduced enemy chance to use psychic powers.
And unit with no focus or purpose is Pyrovore, that footslogging heavy flamer dude.
The Pyrovore's rules state that when it gets instakilled in cc, 'every unit on table suffers hits equal to number of models around the Pyrovore'.

 Traditio wrote:

Lance845 wrote:Cohesive rules are not relative.

You didn't say "cohesive." You said "bad." Non-cohesive rules aren't necessarily "bad." If all models in the game had equally non-cohesive rules and everything was just hideously "bad," then everything would be "good" and the game would be balanced just fine.

LOL What? Are you joking? If everything had non-cohesive rules then everything would be bad and the game would be a bigger mess then it is now. I would love for the nid dex to be balanced. But at this point the games balance is so out of whack there is no real benchmark to balance it against. I want the codex to function. In order to do that it needs cohesive rules.

Cohesive rules are not relative to other codexes. If every dex was a mess with no synergy between units and rules/weapons that made no sense then every codex would be a mess.

If your actual opinion is that if all codexes were a cluster fethed mess then they would all be "good" than 1) it would explain a lot about your recent post history and 2) You should just stay out of rules discussions.

The Nid dex does not contain cohesive rules. It mostly contains contradictory rules, units with no focus or direct purpose, rules that no longer apply to the current game edition, and rules that are so poorly written it literally means that the entire table suffers hits.

What do you even mean by this? Provide examples.

Sure. Pyrovoes volatile rule. Every unit suffers a hit for every model within d6" of a pyrovore that is killed by instant death. RAW, if you surround a pyrovore with 30 gants and then have it die from a ID hit then every unit on the table suffers 30 hits.

Hive crone, supposed to be air superiority fighter. Main weapon is a drool cannon that only targets ground units.

Carnifex. Supposed to be anti vehicle heavy hitter. Too slow to catch any vehicle.

Trygons, supposed to help deploy units from reserves into enemys back field. Can only deploy one unit a turn through the trygon tunnel and you have no control over when the trygon arrives. Because of this the trygon tunnel is just as likely to be the last thing deployed from reserves as it is to be the first and since only 1 unit a turn can come out of the tunnel it cannot be relied upon as a tactic. i.e. is worthless.

OOE is a HQ choice. Because of it, it's possible to build a Nid list with no synapse. Hilarity for the enemy ensues.

Malanthropes: why bring venomthropes?

Raveners, garbage Warriors at the cost of warriors but no synapse... So deep striking nids that you loose control of when you deep strike them. Great.

Spore mines, garbage

Exocrine, +1 BS if it doesn't move. Gun is only 24" range. Maybe you get that bonus half the game because of short range gun.

Gargoyles, basically worthless

Harpys, supposed to be anti infantry. expensive for worse guns than HTs

Ever hear of a diamacheron? It has an ability to jump over terrain and enemy units. It's jump move range is shorter than it's base. So it always end up landing in terrain/ cannot jump over enemy units anyway.

Pick a damn unit in the nid dex. They are basically all a mess.

Overwatch is not what makes shooting more powerful than assault.

Did I say it was?

Yes. You did.

 Traditio wrote:

The OP stuff needs to be nerfed, some core rules need to change to "balance" shooting and assaulting (example: no more overwatch), and the Tau need to be squatted.
t

What I said: "Things like overwatch are part of what make Tyrranids less effective."
What you think I said: "Overwatch, overwatch in particular, and ONLY overwatch, is the ONE thing that makes Tyrranids less effective."

What I said was that overwatch doesn't make ANYONE less effective. Overwatch doesn't acomplish anything. Nids are no more hampered by overwatch then anyone else. Snapshots are so ineffective that it just doesn't even matter.

"A big "problem" with the tyrranids army is a big problem with the game in general. 1. A select, small number of undercosted, OP bullgak. Tyrranids crumble to scatter bikes, wraithguard and grav just like practically everything else."

Do people even read the things I write before they respond to them?

We do. The things you write are just real dumb.

Lance845 wrote:LOL What? Are you joking? If everything had non-cohesive rules then everything would be bad and the game would be a bigger mess then it is now.

If bullgryn were the only unit in the game, the game would be much more balanced than it is now.

If chaos space marine squads consisting of 1 chaos space marine champion with bolt pistol and chainsword, 3 guys with boltguns, 4 guys with boltpistols and chainswords, a guy with a meltagun and a guy with a missile launcher...and oh heck, let's throw in a chaos space marine rhino with all kinds of perfectly pointless upgrades...if that unit were the only available unit in the game, the game would be much more balanced than it is now.

Non-cohesive and a mess does not necessarily equate to being a cause for game imbalance.

I would love for the nid dex to be balanced. But at this point the games balance is so out of whack there is no real benchmark to balance it against. I want the codex to function. In order to do that it needs cohesive rules.

We should have both.

Chaos space marine squads need the combat squads special rule, for starters.

Sure. Pyrovoes volatile rule. Every unit suffers a hit for every model within d6" of a pyrovore that is killed by instant death. RAW, if you surround a pyrovore with 30 gants and then have it die from a ID hit then every unit on the table suffers 30 hits.

Hive crone, supposed to be air superiority fighter. Main weapon is a drool cannon that only targets ground units.

Carnifex. Supposed to be anti vehicle heavy hitter. Too slow to catch any vehicle.

Trygons, supposed to help deploy units from reserves into enemys back field. Can only deploy one unit a turn through the trygon tunnel and you have no control over when the trygon arrives. Because of this the trygon tunnel is just as likely to be the last thing deployed from reserves as it is to be the first and since only 1 unit a turn can come out of the tunnel it cannot be relied upon as a tactic. i.e. is worthless.

OOE is a HQ choice. Because of it, it's possible to build a Nid list with no synapse. Hilarity for the enemy ensues.

Malanthropes: why bring venomthropes?

Raveners, garbage Warriors at the cost of warriors but no synapse... So deep striking nids that you loose control of when you deep strike them. Great.

Spore mines, garbage

Exocrine, +1 BS if it doesn't move. Gun is only 24" range. Maybe you get that bonus half the game because of short range gun.

Gargoyles, basically worthless

Harpys, supposed to be anti infantry. expensive for worse guns than HTs

Ever hear of a diamacheron? It has an ability to jump over terrain and enemy units. It's jump move range is shorter than it's base. So it always end up landing in terrain/ cannot jump over enemy units anyway.

Pick a damn unit in the nid dex. They are basically all a mess.

I'll return to this later after I actually examine these things, but I wish to dispute, from the get go, 2 points:

1. In point of fact, I've lost rhinos to carnifexes. And carnifexes aren't just good against vehicles. They're good against basically anything that they can catch that isn't specifically a cc specialist. Plus they can get 12 BS 3 twin-linked S6 shots at 18 inch range, and still be able to charge. Plus you can drop-pod them in (I know it's technically not a drop pod, but it's very much like a drop pod).

Also, they don't explode when they get shot at by melta guns.

I tell you what. Let's suppose you were presented the offer:

Tyrranids can have dreadnoughts. We'll (we, as in, "the space marines players") take carnifexes.

We got a deal?

2. Gargoyles can hold objectives and can get there pretty fast.

What I said was that overwatch doesn't make ANYONE less effective. Overwatch doesn't acomplish anything. Nids are no more hampered by overwatch then anyone else. Snapshots are so ineffective that it just doesn't even matter.

I didn't say it's the only thing that makes Tyrranids less effective. It's just one more rule out of several that tilt the game in favor of shooting armies and against assault armies. How big does it contribute to that imbalance? Maybe a lot. Maybe a little. Maybe somewhere in between. But it does contribute.

 Traditio wrote:

I'll return to this later after I actually examine these things, but I wish to dispute, from the get go, 2 points:

1. In point of fact, I've lost rhinos to carnifexes. And carnifexes aren't just good against vehicles. They're good against basically anything that they can catch that isn't specifically a cc specialist. Plus they can get 12 BS 3 twin-linked S6 shots at 18 inch range, and still be able to charge. Plus you can drop-pod them in (I know it's technically not a drop pod, but it's very much like a drop pod).

I tell you what. Let's suppose you were presented the offer:

Tyrranids can have dreadnoughts. We'll (we, as in, "the space marines players") take carnifexes.

We got a deal?

2. Gargoyles can hold objectives and can get there pretty fast.

There is a reason it's called "Distraction Carnifex". Carnifex are good at crushing what they can catch. They also die relatively easily for what they are supposed to do and thus only really act as a distraction against any competent opponent. The carnifxes only purpose in any game with an opponent who realizes what a carnifex is is to take shots off of other things. Primarily Carnfexes job in the current meta is to take bullets and not a lot more. If your rhino got caught. You fethed up.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/DISTRACTION_CARNIFEX

Yes, they can take tldwblw. One of the best options for them. Yes you can fit 1 inside of a 75 point drop pod so that it cannot charge the turn it pops out and the enemy can most likely lay it to waste over the next turn. Since models cannot charge from Deepstrike it just kind of sits there for a turn without the real durability it needs to survive. An upgrade option for 2+ armor would help a lot. Also, hey. It's not a synapse creature. So drop podding them into the back field is a good way to lose control of it.

Gargoyles, like everything, can hold objectives. But without synapse to make sure they stay there it doesn't actually matter does it?

Both units you mentioned require a second unit to stay functioning in all of the places where they should be most effective.

Synapse is a shackle and it makes any nid unit that can deepstrike and any delivery method for the nids gak when they don't have synapse to support them.

Genestealers and Lictors are the only non synapse units in the game that can survive on their own... Well... besides spore mines.. But lets face it. they don't count.

What I said was that overwatch doesn't make ANYONE less effective. Overwatch doesn't acomplish anything. Nids are no more hampered by overwatch then anyone else. Snapshots are so ineffective that it just doesn't even matter.

I didn't say it's the only thing that makes Tyrranids less effective. It's just one more rule out of several that tilt the game in favor of shooting armies and against assault armies. How big does it contribute to that imbalance? Maybe a lot. Maybe a little. Maybe somewhere in between. But it does contribute.

Again. I disagree. Overwatch doesn't have enough impact to effect anything enough to contribute to an imbalance.

 Traditio wrote:

I tell you what. Let's suppose you were presented the offer:

Tyrranids can have dreadnoughts. We'll (we, as in, "the space marines players") take carnifexes.

We got a deal?

I admit I'm amused by the thought of space marine players excitedly throwing a bunch of carnifexes in their armies.

"What do you mean they have to pass a LD7 test every turn to fire their guns?!"
"Noooo, the enemy I want you to kill is that way. Come back!"
"Now they're killing each other? Aaaaah, stop!"

Arson Fire wrote:
I admit I'm amused by the thought of space marine players excitedly throwing a bunch of carnifexes in their armies.

"What do you mean they have to pass a LD7 test every turn to fire their guns?!"
"Noooo, the enemy I want you to kill is that way. Come back!"
"Now they're killing each other? Aaaaah, stop!"

lol Yup. And that is why Deepstriking carnifex doesn't work.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

I tell you what. Let's suppose you were presented the offer:

Tyrranids can have dreadnoughts. We'll (we, as in, "the space marines players") take carnifexes.

We got a deal?

I admit I'm amused by the thought of space marine players excitedly throwing a bunch of carnifexes in their armies.

"What do you mean they have to pass a LD7 test every turn to fire their guns?!"
"Noooo, the enemy I want you to kill is that way. Come back!"
"Now they're killing each other? Aaaaah, stop!"

Not going to lie.

I did not think that one through.

Arson Fire wrote:
"What do you mean they have to pass a LD7 test every turn to fire their guns?!"
"Noooo, the enemy I want you to kill is that way. Come back!"
"Now they're killing each other? Aaaaah, stop!"

A horrible thought popped into my head that somebody at GW might think that this sounds like how Orks behave and will change Mob Rule into this.

I mean Killa Kans already run away, it's not that large of a stretch from there.

"My Gorkanaut just failed its Ld test and has shot my battlewagon, destroying it. Now it's my assault phase... oh look it has failed another Ld test and charged my Meganobz, killing all of them except the attached Warboss. And now my Warboss has killed my Gorkanaut. My Turn 1 is over and I now concede."

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I mean Killa Kans already run away, it's not that large of a stretch from there.

Kanz luckly don't run away, they just get scared and get the shakes which makes aiming those grotzookas impossible......

"My Gorkanaut just failed its Ld test and has shot my battlewagon, destroying it. Now it's my assault phase... oh look it has failed another Ld test and charged my Meganobz, killing all of them except the attached Warboss. And now my Warboss has killed my Gorkanaut. My Turn 1 is over and I now concede."

My god that played out like some GW "Forge the Narrative" tripe and now I'm scared.

Did Traditio really suggest that Vanilla Chaos Marines get Combat Squad? You know, the rule that's almost never used, as a plausible fix for them?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did Traditio really suggest that Vanilla Chaos Marines get Combat Squad? You know, the rule that's almost never used, as a plausible fix for them?

Traditio has a very loose grasp on what is actually happening in the game. So yes.