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Taffy17 wrote:
I'd say Sanguinius, he would have beat ka'banda first time if he hadnt shocked him by revealing Horus betrayal, then he came back and beat ka'banda and a keeper of secrets bare handed without fully healed legs.

Then at terra he fought the duration of the siege, banished a blood thirster then managed to wound a chaos enhanced Horus after all that.

Curse gets a good mention for almost choking the Lion to death while having the Lions sword impaled through his chest. And he would have succeeded if it hadn't been for the Lions first captain intervening.

Well he cut a chink in Horus's armour, armour which is described as some of the best in the whole galaxy, if it had been any other armour it could've been a far more critical wound. It shows Sanguinius must've been an exceptional fighter, to beat through Horus incredible defense and almost lay him low. So yes I'd agree with that. Buuut not only did Ka'Bandaha beat sanguinius once, he also knocked him to the ground in the arial duel outside of the Terran palace and was about to strike the killing blow (pausing only to praise khorne) when sangy got up and laid down a world of pain

BaconUprising wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd say Sanguinius, he would have beat ka'banda first time if he hadnt shocked him by revealing Horus betrayal, then he came back and beat ka'banda and a keeper of secrets bare handed without fully healed legs.

Then at terra he fought the duration of the siege, banished a blood thirster then managed to wound a chaos enhanced Horus after all that.

Curse gets a good mention for almost choking the Lion to death while having the Lions sword impaled through his chest. And he would have succeeded if it hadn't been for the Lions first captain intervening.

Well he cut a chink in Horus's armour, armour which is described as some of the best in the whole galaxy, if it had been any other armour it could've been a far more critical wound. It shows Sanguinius must've been an exceptional fighter, to beat through Horus incredible defense and almost lay him low. So yes I'd agree with that. Buuut not only did Ka'Bandaha beat sanguinius once, he also knocked him to the ground in the arial duel outside of the Terran palace and was about to strike the killing blow (pausing only to praise khorne) when sangy got up and laid down a world of pain

Ka'bhanda only beat him the first time though cause Sanguinius hesitated when Horus' betrayal was revealed to him.

I need to get more clued up on the battle of terra, know any good stories and info for it?

I believe in "Collected Visions" there is a story about the battle of terra, I'm not sure though. I haven't read Fear to Tread in a long time so I don't remember their fight exactly. It seems they both were relatively evenly matched both beating each other

ive just finished it, I did enjoy it. Sanguinius made short work of ka'bhanda in their second fight on signus prime but there was a null present and sangy was royally pissed off at the time.

Regarding Fulgrim, I think it revolves around what you consider standard wargear (If the Laer blade counts, his efficacy is greater, but without it, I believe he was on the losing end of his second fight with Ferrus) and whether you consider Chaos boosts from being a Demon Prince count (as he had already ascended to Princedom when he poison-bladed Roboute Guilliman).

I think he would be among the most gracious and technically proficient of the Primarchs to watch in a fight (potentially rivalling or even exceeding Sanguinius), but my presumption is that such skill would only benefit him in the most formal of dueling formats, and that doesn't seem to be how we're judging these 1v1 fights.

Regarding Russ and why people (including myself, earlier) rank him so highly despite his canonical defeats, there are a few things to consider. First, Leman Russ seems to be, in temperament and use, the victim of the Worf Effect (that is, his reputation for being a capable melee combatant is used to bolster the reputation of those who defeat him in the same). Losing to Angron is not really that terrible a feat, given he is consistently ranked in the top 3 (by almost everyone's estimation) in these sorts of situations. Losing to the Lion (himself fairly consistently ranked highly in this sort of 1v1 environment, generally just below the top 3) was also not a bad feat, as they contended for something like a day and a night before Leman let his guard down (and was punished or sucker punched for it, depending on your interpretation). Leman also went toe-to-toe with a warp-using Magnus, and while his victory was on the lucky side, contending at all is pretty damn impressive.

Finally and most importantly (unless its been retconned), Russ dueled the EMPEROR HIMSELF in combat, and lasted for hours. Even to the extent that the Emperor was holding back (and I have no doubt he was), he also wasn't able to KO Russ easily when forced to hold back, and that strongly suggests to me that Russ is an extremely capable melee combatant.

Does he have what it takes to unseat anyone in the top 3? I'd argue no, and pretty much everyone who ranks Russ highly seem to agree. Does his reputation suggest he's a helluva fighter? I think it does, and his defeats/phyrric victories tend to be either drawn-out and close (Lion, Magnus) or to opponents that are admittedly his superior (Angron, a holding-back Emperor).

Sanguinius is simply a master of all trades, with top tier speed (wings plus the description of the Blood Angel who wielded a fraction of his spear's power), precognition (Usable in combat, as per his fight with Kurze), fighting skill (contended with/beat a Greater Demon of Khorne), strength (broke a Greater Demon's back - do they even have spines to break?), and durability/stamina (fought for days at a time and held the Eternity Gate alone against entire hordes of Chaos Marines and Demons).

The fact that Angron and Horus can contend with that, and potentially even be victorious, just goes to show you how devastating they are, and why they both tend to fodderize everyone, Primarch or not, that stands in their path.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


Russ dueled the EMPEROR HIMSELF in combat, and lasted for hours. Even to the extent that the Emperor was holding back (and I have no doubt he was).

Let's not forget though that the Emperor also fought Horus and was fighting to kill not to subjugate. I know he was holding back until the final psychic strike but holding back to a far lesser extent than he was vs Russ. And to be frank Horus was annihilating him. Not holding his ground, not dueling him as an equal, he was tearing him a new one. Horus was fighting in his usual style-cruel and sapping. He slashed the tendons in the Emperors wrst, causing him to drop his blade, he slashed his throat open, he shattered his armour and burned away his hair with psychic fire while laughing at him, he broke his back and I believe even tore one of his arms off. Then a man/custode/terminator came in (the only warrior who made it to the bridge of the ship) and Horus fried him which is when the Big E had his "Oh sh*t!" Moment and 1 shot him. If it hadn't been for that chink and that reprieve Horus would've killed him outright and become the new emperor.

Now I know you're not claiming that Russ is on the same level as Horus but still, he showed that competing with the emperor, while impressive is not unheard of

BaconUprising wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


Russ dueled the EMPEROR HIMSELF in combat, and lasted for hours. Even to the extent that the Emperor was holding back (and I have no doubt he was).

Let's not forget though that the Emperor also fought Horus and was fighting to kill not to subjugate. I know he was holding back until the final psychic strike but holding back to a far lesser extent than he was vs Russ. And to be frank Horus was annihilating him. Not holding his ground, not dueling him as an equal, he was tearing him a new one. Horus was fighting in his usual style-cruel and sapping. He slashed the tendons in the Emperors wrst, causing him to drop his blade, he slashed his throat open, he shattered his armour and burned away his hair with psychic fire while laughing at him, he broke his back and I believe even tore one of his arms off. Then a man/custode/terminator came in (the only warrior who made it to the bridge of the ship) and Horus fried him which is when the Big E had his "Oh sh*t!" Moment and 1 shot him. If it hadn't been for that chink and that reprieve Horus would've killed him outright and become the new emperor.

Now I know you're not claiming that Russ is on the same level as Horus but still, he showed that competing with the emperor, while impressive is not unheard of

Two points.

First, the Horus that the Emperor fought (and when holding back, was handing the Emperor his ass) was a Chaos-imbued, post-Molech Horus. That's a sufficiently different set of circumstances that comparing the two situations is going to be extremely, extremely difficult, at best.

Second, Horus is also consistently in the top 3 position of "Primarchs you don't want to be your opponent, ever, always, fullstop, ohgodohgodstayawayfrommeaaaAAAARGHH-" that is also occupied by Angron and Sanguinius. I consider those three to be in a tier of their own. Being outperformed by Horus, Sanguinius, or Angron does nothing to prevent another Primarch from being a contender for a high tier of capability.

Given those two points, comparing the Chaos/Molech Horus/Emperor and newly-discovered-Russ/Emperor fights (when Russ was without the hundreds of years of training/dueling he would have had with other Primarchs which would have inevitably raised his existing skills through opponents who are at least comparably skilled and strong, while the Emperor would have already reached the peak of his skill/power) is rife with too many variables to make the comparison useful - it's practically apples to oranges.

Edit: the thing to remember about my points are that I don't support Russ as an actual contender for best 1v1 Primarch, I'm just arguing that his feats tend to have context and you really only see him fight in the lore against other high or highest tier opponents... and even then, he can still do reasonably well.

You would expect a primarch fight to be relatively even. All primarch fights to date are even, even lorgar when he is complete rubbish vs Corax.
Also Horus is not chaos imbued in current fluff, in his current rendition at the end of the Heresy is a servant of chaos rather than their pawn. Which is why I will always consider him superior to the other traitor primarchs and Abbadon

BaconUprising wrote:
You would expect a primarch fight to be relatively even. All primarch fights to date are even, even lorgar when he is complete rubbish vs Corax.
Also Horus is not chaos imbued in current fluff, in his current rendition at the end of the Heresy is a servant of chaos rather than their pawn. Which is why I will always consider him superior to the other traitor primarchs and Abbadon

He was either chaos imbued (old fluff) or he got a huge upgrade in both raw and refined power (after his visit to Molech). Either way, he was significantly boosted in capability beyond the pre-Heresy Horus, who was already in the "can give Sanguinius and Angron a run for their money" range.

Edit: Looking at Lexicanum (Yeah, yeah, I know), there seems to be a strong implication that Horus when through the Molech warp gate to obtain a portion of the chaos god's powers, as the Emperor apparently did before. Regardless, it's clearly suggested to be a huge boost in potency.

Regardless, I think my point stands: the Emperor's fight with Horus is not really comparable (due to the different circumstances of their battles), and staying in a fight for hours against the Emperor (who was holding back, but clearly wanted to win the fight) is a very impressive feat, even for a Primarch-level being.

I wonder why so many quote Night of the Wolf as a mark against Russ by Angron, when the Betrayer novel showed it to be a calculated move by Russ. He himself held back in an attempt to get Angron to see through the haze of the Nails and had him surrounded pending execution right after the bout. Lorgar straight told Angron that Russ could have put him down that night. This is also the same Primarch that was pretty confident in his ability to contend with Horus, such that he had his pathfinders mark his route of attack through the Vengeful Spirit along with the Knights Errant.

Can't really speak to the capacity of Russ in single combat with 100% certainty, but the death of two Legions is attributed to the Space Wolves. As far as stock Primarchs go, Russ has the bodycount to swing with the big boys.

There's also Jaghatai Khan to mention. The two White Scar heresy novels has him fairly confident in his ability to put down most of his brothers if it came to blows, exceptions being Horus, Sanguinius, and Magnus. Doubts about Mortartion, but he seemed sure of his kill strike by the end (and was robbed of it by plot).

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I wonder why so many quote Night of the Wolf as a mark against Russ by Angron, when the Betrayer novel showed it to be a calculated move by Russ. He himself held back in an attempt to get Angron to see through the haze of the Nails and had him surrounded pending execution right after the bout. Lorgar straight told Angron that Russ could have put him down that night. This is also the same Primarch that was pretty confident in his ability to contend with Horus, such that he had his pathfinders mark his route of attack through the Vengeful Spirit along with the Knights Errant.

Can't really speak to the capacity of Russ in single combat with 100% certainty, but the death of two Legions is attributed to the Space Wolves. As far as stock Primarchs go, Russ has the bodycount to swing with the big boys.

There's also Jaghatai Khan to mention. The two White Scar heresy novels has him fairly confident in his ability to put down most of his brothers if it came to blows, exceptions being Horus, Sanguinius, and Magnus. Doubts about Mortartion, but he seemed sure of his kill strike by the end (and was robbed of it by plot).

I don't think arrogance is any evidence of a primarch being high tier, Russ and the space wolves are shown time and time again as a monsterously arrogant and hypocritical bunch that believe themselves above everyone else (edict of Nikea [i]their[i] powers come from the "life cycles of fenris" hahahaha ok...battle of the fang, thousand sons, night of the wolf). Also Russ is really not holding back. If you re-read the passage Angron baits him, destroys him in a battle of words and then Russ launches himself at him. He is in fact fighting with so much rage that he actually breaks Angrons sword and then proceeds to be beaten senseless by an unarmed opponent. Also at the start of the duel Angron even says "we both know the day will never dawn that you can best me in single combat", a statement that Russ never challenges.



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Russ is implied to have defeated one of the forgotten legions however there is absolutely no record of how this went down so it really can't be used as evidence until the circumstances are clearler. Similarly in thousand sons it's made pretty clear that without the sisters of silence, custodes AND Magnus blinding his sons until the wolves have made planet fall and attacked, the space wolves didn't really stand a chance.

I can't remember which planet its on but during the crusade when the wolves burn a great library on a xenos planet the TS and SW actually come to blows. Without the nullifying effects of the sisters the Thousand Sons utterly annihilate the wolves until Logar beaks it up

BaconUprising wrote:
I don't think arrogance is any evidence of a primarch being high tier, Russ and the space wolves are shown time and time again as a monsterously arrogant and hypocritical bunch that believe themselves above everyone else (edict of Nikea their powers come from the "life cycles of fenris" hahahaha ok...battle of the fang, thousand sons, night of the wolf). Also Russ is really not holding back. If you re-read the passage Angron baits him, destroys him in a battle of words and then Russ launches himself at him. He is in fact fighting with so much rage that he actually breaks Angrons sword and then proceeds to be beaten senseless by an unarmed opponent. Also at the start of the duel Angron even says "we both know the day will never dawn that you can best me in single combat", a statement that Russ never challenges.

There's barely any Legion that can be said to be utterly humble. All are arrogant to some degree. Angron and Russ broke each other's weapons in that bout, and although Russ gets angry (because, you know, he's in the middle of a fight with a brother for the third time at least) that doesn't mean he still wasn't holding back. Again, this is a primarch that has been all but confirmed to have exterminated two Legions.

Not to mention the hypocrisy of citing Russ' arrogance as dismissable but Angron's remark as a point of fact. Just because Russ doesn't dispute it point blank it means he accepts it as true? Did you expect a back and forth of "nuh uh!" between them?

I'm not saying Russ can absolutely beat Angron without a doubt. But citing the Night of the Wolf, in which Russ had the means, method, and capability to exterminate the World Eaters and put a third notch on his Legion-killing belt as a source for Russ not being a top contender seems silly.

The night of the wolf is far before any of the events at prospero, this is the second time (we can imply) that's the wolves have fought other astartes. I'm not sure if you have read the passage since your argument doesn't really make sense. Russ isn't simply angry, he's furious, he considers Angron a traitor and is described as launching himself at him.

Also the wolves were never described in any account as having the means method or capability to "exterminate" the world eaters. It is heavily suggested that if the fight came down to the last man standing then the wolves would in fact lose let alone "put a third notch on his legion killing belt". Killing Angron wouldn't have won the wolves the battle, it just demonstrated that they were a more effective force at capturing objectives, Angron had Russ, with his boot on his throat. If they fight had continued to the death both legions would have lost their primarchs. The world eaters would've been the last ones standing


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And I cite Russ' arrogance as dismissable since its proved in the passage I quoted. Russ believes himself the equal of Horus yet is thoroughly beaten by Angron. He lectures the red angel on the importance of battlefield tactics and refined combat while spending the whole of "Thousand Sons" acting like a lupine slow

BaconUprising wrote:
The night of the wolf is far before any of the events at prospero, this is the second time (we can imply) that's the wolves have fought other astartes. I'm not sure if you have read the passage since your argument doesn't really make sense. Russ isn't simply angry, he's furious, he considers Angron a traitor and is described as launching himself at him.

I cite the two Legions exterminated by the Space Wolves. There are 18 Astartes Legions engaged in the Horus Heresy timeline. There were 20 Primarchs forged by the Emperor. Two, and their Legions, were put to the sword by Russ. And how else do you want a wolf-themed norse equivalent to be described? He's not going to dance at Angron, or skulk around him, or lumber toward him. Those are the domains of Fulgrim, Corax, and Mortarian respectively (though further examples exist).

BaconUprising wrote:
Also the wolves were never described in any account as having the means method or capability to "exterminate" the world eaters. It is heavily suggested that if the fight came down to the last man standing then the wolves would in fact lose let alone "put a third notch on his legion killing belt". Killing Angron wouldn't have won the wolves the battle, it just demonstrated that they were a more effective force at capturing objectives, Angron had Russ, with his boot on his throat. If they fight had continued to the death both legions would have lost their primarchs. The world eaters would've been the last ones standing

It's rather silly to think that having the World Eaters without Angron squaring against the Wolves with Russ wouldn't result in the Wolves winning. A primarch is a tide turner. If Angron had died, the Wolves would have won - that's almost irrefutable. It further stands that if Russ had been sent to kill Angron (which he wasn't, the Emperor sent him to chastise, admonish, and possibly see him returned to Terra for punishment) he would have fought to kill just as he did with Magnus. Lorgar even says in Betrayer that Russ could have killed Angron in that instance had he the order from the Emperor or inclination himself.

BaconUprising wrote:
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And I cite Russ' arrogance as dismissable since its proved in the passage I quoted. Russ believes himself the equal of Horus yet is thoroughly beaten by Angron. He lectures the red angel on the importance of battlefield tactics and refined combat while spending the whole of "Thousand Sons" acting like a lupine REDACTED

At this point I have to wonder if you've read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns. Maybe you just didn't like them, hence your strongly worded (and redacted, you're welcome) opinion. Reading into the motivation behind actions in a novel won't get us anywhere, opinions being as they are. Suffice to say I don't agree with your assessment of Russ on Prospero, and the rest of my post stands on its own.

It's not 'all but confirmed' that the Wolves killed 2 Legions. The 'Executioners' thing is way overblown, and quite frankly nerve grating.

Wolves vs Sons-decimated.
Wolves vs Alpha Legion-backfoot.
Plus, the way Russ falls apart after Prospero, no way he's a Primarch killer.

We have hearsay of rumours of 'maybe', and 'we call ourselves the executioners', and they don't cope well against Legions when they do go up against them.

No evidence for, quite a bit against.

Why people are convinced the Lost and Purged were a bloody slog is beyond me. It would have been a properly done Istvaan 3 for both of them.


As for best 1v1, Top tier is probably Angron, Sanguinius, Khan, Fulgrim, Lion, Leman, Curze, maybe Horus. Sure I've forgotten some, quite tired. Angron+Sang probably sit above the others by a bit.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
The night of the wolf is far before any of the events at prospero, this is the second time (we can imply) that's the wolves have fought other astartes. I'm not sure if you have read the passage since your argument doesn't really make sense. Russ isn't simply angry, he's furious, he considers Angron a traitor and is described as launching himself at him.

I cite the two Legions exterminated by the Space Wolves. There are 18 Astartes Legions engaged in the Horus Heresy timeline. There were 20 Primarchs forged by the Emperor. Two, and their Legions, were put to the sword by Russ. And how else do you want a wolf-themed norse equivalent to be described? He's not going to dance at Angron, or skulk around him, or lumber toward him. Those are the domains of Fulgrim, Corax, and Mortarian respectively (though further examples exist).

BaconUprising wrote:
Also the wolves were never described in any account as having the means method or capability to "exterminate" the world eaters. It is heavily suggested that if the fight came down to the last man standing then the wolves would in fact lose let alone "put a third notch on his legion killing belt". Killing Angron wouldn't have won the wolves the battle, it just demonstrated that they were a more effective force at capturing objectives, Angron had Russ, with his boot on his throat. If they fight had continued to the death both legions would have lost their primarchs. The world eaters would've been the last ones standing

It's rather silly to think that having the World Eaters without Angron squaring against the Wolves with Russ wouldn't result in the Wolves winning. A primarch is a tide turner. If Angron had died, the Wolves would have won - that's almost irrefutable. It further stands that if Russ had been sent to kill Angron (which he wasn't, the Emperor sent him to chastise, admonish, and possibly see him returned to Terra for punishment) he would have fought to kill just as he did with Magnus. Lorgar even says in Betrayer that Russ could have killed Angron in that instance had he the order from the Emperor or inclination himself.

BaconUprising wrote:
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And I cite Russ' arrogance as dismissable since its proved in the passage I quoted. Russ believes himself the equal of Horus yet is thoroughly beaten by Angron. He lectures the red angel on the importance of battlefield tactics and refined combat while spending the whole of "Thousand Sons" acting like a lupine REDACTED

At this point I have to wonder if you've read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns. Maybe you just didn't like them, hence your strongly worded (and redacted, you're welcome) opinion. Reading into the motivation behind actions in a novel won't get us anywhere, opinions being as they are. Suffice to say I don't agree with your assessment of Russ on Prospero, and the rest of my post stands on its own.

So many errors in this post. The wolves certainly didn't deat 2 legions, only 1 was purged and the large influx of astartes into the ultramarines chapter suggests many weren't killed at all. We have no idea of the circumstances of that battle, what part the wolves played or if they was even a battle so how you're using that as evidence is beyond me...
And it really does seem like you haven't read betrayer, Russ flew at Angron in a rage trying to kill him, there was no holding back, no over-arching lesson, no commands sent to his men. The discipline of the space wolves allowed them to form up into a position to threaten Angron, Russ wasn't directly giving them the orders, he was beating hammered into the dirt by Angron at the time. Additionally the wolves were never ordered to apprehend and rebuke the world eaters by the Emperor, if they were the eaters fighting back would've been tantamount to heresy. The passage clearly states that Russ took it upon himself to discipline Angron and things flew out of hand. I don't think you quite understand the gravitas of the NotW, astartes killing other astartes is an enormous deal, loyalists attacking other loyalists, there was no "holding back", Russ was obviously fighting to kill and unless you can provide a concrete reason why he wasn't then there is nothing supporting your interpretation. And Lorgar never says that Russ directly could have killed Angron, you're taking that line completely out of context, most likely intentionally. Lorgar is amazed at how Angron cannot see that Russ's men outmanauvered his, showing the way the nails adversely effect the competence of the world eaters at fulfufilling their role as the emperors servants. Neither side is questioning the world eaters effectiveness at winning, in fact lorgar even directly states that the world eaters would've been the ones left standing, what is in question is whether their manner of warmongering is in accordance with the imperiums goals. Lorgar in no way at any point affirms that Russ could've killed Angron single handed, he even admits then although they both fought with nothing held back Russ lost, he simply fought in a more "imperial" (for the lack of a better word) way and so demonstrated his argument.

Angron had his boot on Russ's throat, he crawled free from him when Angron surveyed the battlefield. Angron could've killed him there and then depriving the wolves of their primarch, of course he himself would've most likely been killed in return but the world eaters were winning the fight with the wolves while isolated from their primarch, it's even directly stated that they rarely saw him in battle as he fought so far ahead of them so fighting without him would hardly have been a huge change.

And lastly it doesn't really matter if you don't agree with my assssement of prospero. It's not really up for debate, Russ and the wolves were being utterly torn apart in every instance that the sisters of silence weren't present. Hell Phosis T'kar, a mere captain of the TS very nearly stalled a large section of the SW speartip including a powerful custodian. Russ was also being thoroughly beaten in single combat by Magnus (who was also fighting off Russ's wolf companions and stalling the entire sw advance by turning the waters of the tizcan lake into acid. Russ was described as "reeling" and sending a "wild blow" which caught Magnus in the eye, the source of his power.


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Fyi, Russ himself adopted the title of "executioner" it wasn't given to him by the Emperor and was often used mockingly by other primarchs to describe him. It wasn't the great title you portray it as that defined his legion as exceptional astarte killers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's look at the extracts from Betrayal here:


Sorry for all the sarcasm, it's not meant to be taken as seriously as it sounds. But I've having recently re-read betrayal your memory of it is pretty jarring to my interpretation

BaconUprising wrote:

So many errors in this post. The wolves certainly didn't deat 2 legions, only 1 was purged and the large influx of astartes into the ultramarines chapter suggests many weren't killed at all. We have no idea of the circumstances of that battle, what part the wolves played or if they was even a battle so how you're using that as evidence is beyond me...

The author who put in that rumour of the Ultramarines getting men from a destroyed Legion confirmed that it wasn't supposed to have been taken seriously. No Legion was folded into the Ultramarines.

Having said that I don't understand why people think the Space Wolves alone would've purged any Legion. Even with Magnus, sent to bring him to the Emperor, Russ was backed up by Custodes and Sisters of Silence. Russ has only beaten one Primarch that we know of; Magnus.

Angron and Russ were well matched angron won because he was going for the kill and russ wasn't he was holding back.

We can assume russ got the highest primarch kill count he would of taken on the unnamed primarchs when their legions were censored and had broken Magnus before he ran.

hobojebus wrote:
Angron and Russ were well matched angron won because he was going for the kill and russ wasn't he was holding back.

We can assume russ got the highest primarch kill count he would of taken on the unnamed primarchs when their legions were censored and had broken Magnus before he ran.

They really weren't evenly matched and I've already explained and reasoned exactly why Russ wasn't holding back. Also you can't assume Russ killed the unnamed primarch. It's never directly insinuated in any form that he did

BaconUprising wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd say Sanguinius, he would have beat ka'banda first time if he hadnt shocked him by revealing Horus betrayal, then he came back and beat ka'banda and a keeper of secrets bare handed without fully healed legs.

Then at terra he fought the duration of the siege, banished a blood thirster then managed to wound a chaos enhanced Horus after all that.

Curse gets a good mention for almost choking the Lion to death while having the Lions sword impaled through his chest. And he would have succeeded if it hadn't been for the Lions first captain intervening.

Well he cut a chink in Horus's armour, armour which is described as some of the best in the whole galaxy, if it had been any other armour it could've been a far more critical wound. It shows Sanguinius must've been an exceptional fighter, to beat through Horus incredible defense and almost lay him low. So yes I'd agree with that. Buuut not only did Ka'Bandaha beat sanguinius once, he also knocked him to the ground in the arial duel outside of the Terran palace and was about to strike the killing blow (pausing only to praise khorne) when sangy got up and laid down a world of pain

And that chink was made after days of fighting without sleep!

NivlacSupreme wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
I'd say Sanguinius, he would have beat ka'banda first time if he hadnt shocked him by revealing Horus betrayal, then he came back and beat ka'banda and a keeper of secrets bare handed without fully healed legs.

Then at terra he fought the duration of the siege, banished a blood thirster then managed to wound a chaos enhanced Horus after all that.

Curse gets a good mention for almost choking the Lion to death while having the Lions sword impaled through his chest. And he would have succeeded if it hadn't been for the Lions first captain intervening.

Well he cut a chink in Horus's armour, armour which is described as some of the best in the whole galaxy, if it had been any other armour it could've been a far more critical wound. It shows Sanguinius must've been an exceptional fighter, to beat through Horus incredible defense and almost lay him low. So yes I'd agree with that. Buuut not only did Ka'Bandaha beat sanguinius once, he also knocked him to the ground in the arial duel outside of the Terran palace and was about to strike the killing blow (pausing only to praise khorne) when sangy got up and laid down a world of pain

And that chink was made after days of fighting without sleep!

Indeed, I also re-read Fear to Tread and Ka'Bandha actually loses badly all 3 times, in his initial win he is beaten to the ground with sangy standing over him about to finish it when he hits him with the old "Horus betrayed" line to score a cheap hit.

hobojebus wrote:
Angron and Russ were well matched angron won because he was going for the kill and russ wasn't he was holding back.

We can assume russ got the highest primarch kill count he would of taken on the unnamed primarchs when their legions were censored and had broken Magnus before he ran.

If Angron was really going for the kill he and Russ would likely both have died that day.

Nobody knows what happened with the unknown Primarchs. They cannot be used as evidence. As far as we know Russ has beaten one Primarch and that was Magnus.

Fulgrim almost lost his fight against Ferrus. As someone told earlier, the deamon inside his sword empowered him and saved him.
As far as I'm surprised he didn't win alone, that's the fluff. Ferrus Manus beat him 1v1, without the deamon.

 godardc wrote:
Fulgrim almost lost his fight against Ferrus. As someone told earlier, the deamon inside his sword empowered him and saved him.
As far as I'm surprised he didn't win alone, that's the fluff. Ferrus Manus beat him 1v1, without the deamon.

To be fair in the first battle they had Fulgrim won if I recall correctly. Though the emotional states of the respective parties would have been different.

 godardc wrote:
Fulgrim almost lost his fight against Ferrus. As someone told earlier, the deamon inside his sword empowered him and saved him.
As far as I'm surprised he didn't win alone, that's the fluff. Ferrus Manus beat him 1v1, without the deamon.

True, however on Ferrus' ship fulgrim gave him a royal beating without the sword at all

BaconUprising wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Fulgrim almost lost his fight against Ferrus. As someone told earlier, the deamon inside his sword empowered him and saved him.
As far as I'm surprised he didn't win alone, that's the fluff. Ferrus Manus beat him 1v1, without the deamon.

True, however on Ferrus' ship fulgrim gave him a royal beating without the sword at all

IIRC, Fulgrim surprised his brother, this wasn't a fair 1v1; wasn't it ?

Well he suprised him with his betrayal yet it was Ferrus who attacked first and with more anger (which you would assume would empower him). But then again there seems to be a trend in primarch duels of the angered party getting their ass handed to them (Sangy vs Horus, sangy when hit by Ka'Bandha 1 liner, Russ vs angron etc etc)

Is it cheating to just say Vulkan?

He is often descirbed as the physically largest and strongest, being as big as Terminator Horus while being in normal power armor, and being able to toss around Astartes battle tanks with his bare hands.

Plus, he is indestructible. Falling from orbit and being perfectly fine and all that

PLUS, he spent an unknown (but presumed long time) being tortured by Curze, physcially, mentally, and ...warpally, and yet still managed to be able to pick Curze up like a doll and swing him around.

So;
strongest physically
strongest mentally, at least in willpower
and also Immortal.

Also has a very large Hammer with which to smack people

In terms of the Primarchs on the tabletop how do they fare VS captains, senior commanders etc?
I was re reading the HH novel where the Ultramarines senior commander guy squares off VS Angron and it dosent end well.
Is that reflected ingame or are the Primarchs beatable by captains etc (sorry not familiar with 30ks HQ names/structures)? Or do you need a Primarch to kill a Primarch?

Overall, even the weakest primarchs should reduce non-Primarchs to mulch in short order. I'd feel confident sending Lorgar to fight Sigismund.

Sigismund and the Nemean Reaver will put up a good fight but they are ultimately not on the same level - the sheer statline advantage of the Primarchs puts them firmly ahead.