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I see, interesting.
Can 30k "deathstar" units do it maybe? (does 30k have deathstars?)

Fluff wise? Horus. He mortally wounded the emperor, killed sanguinis, etc. Yes Russ battled the emperor for days, but Horus practically killed him.

Second would be Angron. He just kills everything and keeps going like the energizer bunny. This is a toss up between Sanguinis, Russ, Corax, etc. They all did major things in the Heresy, and can hold their own.

Game wise? Horus. He hits with his claw, and other primarchs stats lower permanently... and it's cumulative! He can reduce Russ, Fulgrim, well, anyone to ashes pretty quickly while holding his own (2+3++ ew, iwnd). Unlike other primarchs, he can kill super heavy vehicles, instant death any marine with his mace, etc.

Second place would be Angron. He is very agressive, but will die if not used right. Third is a toss up again. Many primarch models could fill this slot.

But Horus wins period. Anyone who argues this hasn't read the books, fluff, or any of the 40k rulebooks. No one else 'killed' the emperor, killed another top rated primarch (well, besides fulgrim), lead the heresy, etc. There is a reason all other primarchs looked up to him too.

Psychic powers are not nearly as widely available or reliable as in 40k, which in itself reduces deathstar power.

Some units do qualify (I have faced a unit of 10 Firedrakes, basically 2-wound hammernators, and they are scary even without Vulkan leading them) but there are no equivalents to the gravstar or the seerstar, and aforementioned Firedrakes are not ideal due to their high price and most Primarchs' access to ID.

Cool thx.

They are far from broken though! I have lost Lorgar in so many ways it's barely funny.

I think Fulgrim may be third. He's a pretty darn good duelist.

Lorgar Transfigured with a couple of buffs from psychic powers is actually still a threat - especially when supported with the right unit (ie Gal Vorbak!)

djones520 wrote:

We've got pretty hard evidence that when the rules of engagement are pretty open, the Lion stomps the piss out of Kurze.

The Lion and Curze fought twice. The first time the Lion was only saved by the (ultimately fatal) intervention of one of his minions. The score is 1:1

Justycar wrote:
Curze needs to engage in favorable situations, hitting and running thanks to being the only primarch with "Hit and Run".

Corax has it, wouldn't be surprised if Sangy gets it too. Also you mention his S6 isn't great, he has S6 with shred, that's not bad at all.

 MarsNZ wrote:

djones520 wrote:

We've got pretty hard evidence that when the rules of engagement are pretty open, the Lion stomps the piss out of Kurze.

The Lion and Curze fought twice. The first time the Lion was only saved by the (ultimately fatal) intervention of one of his minions. The score is 1:1

Lion and Curze have fought at least 4 times-maybe I've missed some?
Curze wins first, after Corswain stabs him.
Second Lion nearly kills him-puts him in a coma.
Guilliman and Lion vs Curze are third time, Curze would've won.
Fourth, Lion nearly kills him again-snaps his spine.

 Massaen wrote:
Lorgar Transfigured with a couple of buffs from psychic powers is actually still a threat - especially when supported with the right unit (ie Gal Vorbak!)

This is my experience as well. That said, they have struggled with other Primarch retinues (in particular Vulkan and his Firedrakes made short work of them, and Angron + 20 melee tacticals + that WB 4+ FNP character were not far behind)

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

djones520 wrote:

We've got pretty hard evidence that when the rules of engagement are pretty open, the Lion stomps the piss out of Kurze.

The Lion and Curze fought twice. The first time the Lion was only saved by the (ultimately fatal) intervention of one of his minions. The score is 1:1

Lion and Curze have fought at least 4 times-maybe I've missed some?
Curze wins first, after Corswain stabs him.
Second Lion nearly kills him-puts him in a coma.
Guilliman and Lion vs Curze are third time, Curze would've won.
Fourth, Lion nearly kills him again-snaps his spine.

I would argue that we can’t possible know what the exact outcome of the first confrontation would have been. Yes Curze had the advantage at that point in the fight (what with half the Lions head caved-in) but before that the Lion was making the fight look like child’s play (its stated that he was actually bored) We know from “Angels of Caliban” that the Lion still considered the possibility that Curze could be redeemed and that it was only when they were strangling the life out of each other that the Lion truly realised just how far his brother had fallen. (And yes the Lion did have his hands rapped around Curzes neck)

As seen in all the primarch fights it’s always a back and forth battle with one gaining the advantage then the other getting the upper hand in due time. As stated by the author if Corswain had not intervened then anything could have happened; the Lion could have simply cracked Curze over the head with a rock or drawn a knife and jammed it into Curzes neck thus breaking the dead lock.
After Corswain’s intervention the Lion was still able to battle Curze one on one despite having half his head destroyed (that’s an impressive feat even for a primarch) and the fight only ended when both were weakened to the point that their sons could drag them apart.
Round one: Draw (Lion:0.5 / Curze:0.5)

Round two is the well documented ambush.
Round two: resounding victory for the Lion (Lion: 1.5 / Curze:0.5)

They actually came to blows four times aboard the invincible reason. One time during the initial attack were Curze upon realising that his forces were losing turns and runs away.
Round three: Lion wins by default (Lion: 2 / Curze:0.5)

During the hunt aboard the Invincible reason they came to blows three times. Curze attempted to ambush the Lion three times and was rebuffed each time (Angels of Caliban has a good explanation for why Curze could not ambush the Lion successfully) and sent running back into the shadows. If it hadn’t been for that radio message the Lion could have slain Curze right there and then.
Round four: neither (Lion: 2/ Curze:0.5)

Guilliman and Lion vs Curze was always going to be an odd one. In this fight we see Curze at his best; he has every advantage he could possibly need. It takes place in the pitch black of night in a cavernous unlit space with plenty of places to hide. Curze does not stand toe to toe with his brothers but takes full advantage of his surroundings, implementing hit and run tactics by attacking then retreating back into the shadows were he seems to disappear then striking again from the shadows from seemingly random directions. Despite this he is still only able to inflict one wound of notice on the Lion but in doing so he leaves himself open to Guillimans attack leading to him activating the bombs as his brothers begin to close in.
Round five: Curze advantage but only due to the trap, as he would likely have been overwhelmed if the fight had gone on much longer. (Curze was using himself as bait to lure them in and only needed to hold them off long enough to get them to move deeper into the chapel to ensues they couldn’t escape) (Lion: 2/ Curze:1)

The fight during Angels of Caliban was a straight up victory for the Lion but Curze put on an impressive display once he realised he had been cornered and that there was no escape possible. Curze threw everything he had at the Lion but in the end he was literally being thrown about like a rag doll.
Round six: Lion victory (Lion: 3/ Curze:1)

1 on 1 I put the Lion above Curze in a fair fight but Curze should not be underestimated. The Lion is a fantastic duellist but Curze is and always will be a killer. This is not to say that the Lion is number one but he is defiantly up there with the best. I would go as far as to argue that there is no such thing as a definite number one, all the primarchs had their own advantages that could give them the advantage over their brothers given the right situation. This is of course from a fluff prospective not a table top one.

Agron has a 3+ armor save while most of the Primarchs have a 2+ save.
This issue came up quite a few times with my WE army. Then I deflected shots (mostly S8 AP3 from missile launchers) to the nearby Kharn who has a 2+ save.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Agron has a 3+ armor save while most of the Primarchs have a 2+ save.
This issue came up quite a few times with my WE army. Then I deflected shots (mostly S8 AP3 from missile launchers) to the nearby Kharn who has a 2+ save.

This was explained by some of the guys at forgeworld. They gave him a worse save and one less wound on purpose to represent the fact that the nails were killing him slowly and that he was no longer as powerful as he had once been during the early years of the great crusade. There was talk of giving him new rules to show that as he was approaching his ascension he was once again gaining back his former strength.

 Ratius wrote:
I see, interesting.
Can 30k "deathstar" units do it maybe? (does 30k have deathstars?)

Anything ap 2 that forces enough invulnerable saves will eat a primarch alive. Their very strong if you use them well in your army but if played badly their just a huge point sink.

To me there is an X factor with Russ. When he fought the emperor he didn't have any of the fancy tools, so the emperor could have punked him any time he wanted really. Given that the emperor designed the primarchs and that he his the flippin emperor though this should be the case 20 times out of 20.

It's suggested that Russ had a part in dealing with at least one of the expunged legions. Did this legion have an active primarch? If so did they fight?

From memory when Russ fought Magnus Ahriman described Russ as shrugging of psychic attacks that could level a titan.

When Russ fought Angron it was later suggested that Russ was intentionally loosing to lure Angron and his legion into position.

The dude seems to have a knack for winning. There was a quote I can't remember where I read it and who said it so take it with a grain of salt, but it said something to the effect of the Emperor made Russ to be a loyal dog and that because of this he was also made to be able deal with the other primarchs if needed. I feel like that's kind of backed up by his track record. By the numbers I don't think he's the strongest by a decent margin but I think the guy is designed to be able to go toe to toe despite that.

All my books and my kindle are currently in a storage locker in another corner of the world right now so I couldn't double check please do correct me where I'm wrong here.