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I've been thinking about ranking the Skitarii forces. Let me know if you guys agree or disagree.

Vanguard: [S Tier] Almost always gotten their points back. Their 30 shots always pack a HEAVY punch and they are relatively cheap compared to other medium infantry so it's a bit easier to get back the 110 that I put in from a full squad (10 guys, omnispex). Make for excellent meatshields to move your arc rifles or plasma calivers up the board. And if a full squad dies that's usually acceptable losses as you should have another 3 full squads ready to go at the least (even in 1250 point games).

Rangers: [D Tier] Have never earned their points back in any game I have played with them (numbering a sample size of 15 games). They don't have an ideal target on the battlefield. Even when they do, I find 5-10 rangers don't do nearly enough wounds even when in rapid fire range to justify their purchase. Opponents often ignore them since they can't do more than lightly ping the enemy.

Infiltrators: [C Tier] Earn back their points in 20% of the games I've played with them. Their CC capabilities are amazing but they often don't make it into CC range (or even burst pistol range!) to pull it off. What's that? T3 2W 4+ and 5+ FNP with stealth? Eat a S6 Ignore Cover AP4 blast/flamer template, and cry.

Ruststalkers: [D Tier] Earn back their points in 10% of the games I've played with them. Everything Infiltrators have, except a bit worse. They don't have stealth to give them bonus durability in cover. The winner of most CC battles is determined at the end of the first round of CC, so their 2nd round CC bonus is moot, for the most part.

Sycarian Dragoons: [B Tier] Models I have begun experimenting with, have not seen how often they can earn their points back. The Taser Lance and Rad Jezzail loadouts are both VERY lethal but the problem with their 5+ cover save is that ignore cover is practically everywhere in 7th edition. Their lethality trumps that of the Infiltrators, and the Taser Lance loadout is VERY effective at popping light/medium vehicles.

Ironstrider Ballistarii: [Unrated] I've never even considered picking these lads up since I feel they lack enough shooting punch. I'm an old IG player so it feels like these guys have the same problems sentinels do. Also, NO SAVE AT ALL in the open?

Onager Dunecrawlers: [A Tier] Earn their points back 50-60% of games, even when fliers/skimmers aren't present (with Icarus equipped) Neutron laser is OK, not sufficiently justified. Eradication Beamer is a . Get the Icarus Array and pick up a cognis Heavy Stubber. That is the best possible loadout. Skimmers and Fliers make up like 30-40% of slots in 40k so this is a safe investment.

Rangers aren't the kind of unit that's earning points. They can pop a couple of guys and hold an objective whilst Vanguard March forward.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rangers aren't the kind of unit that's earning points. They can pop a couple of guys and hold an objective whilst Vanguard March forward.

If that is the case, it may simply be better to stick 5 vanguard on the point + a conversion field on the sergeant. This will end up being better at staying on the objective and holding it than the same unit of rangers, while being the same cost as rangers. And if enemies enter the 18" threat range, they will pay the price!

If Rangers had stealth, I would argue that they are EXCELLENT for backfield objectives. Instead, they get Move Through Cover for some blasted reason. As if I want to move them forward through ruins.

Great topic and discussion thus far.

I will make an aside to say that in the War Convocation, pretty much every unit always makes its points back I'm sure you'll know why.

Apart from this, I'll throw my .02 Imperial Credits in with my experiences both inside and outside the War Convocation. I would say that I agree with the majority of what you have say about RustStalkers, Rangers, Onagers, Vanguard, and Dragoons (my personal favorite). Where we differ is in my experience with the Sicarian Infiltrators. I often find that this unit is like a hidden dagger, often ignored to the detriment of your opponent. They obliterate almost everything they touch, but there's where your caveat comes in. Infiltrators take a lot of practice and careful consideration to use. You need to stick to cover as often as possible and charge/shoot targets of opportunity. I feel like with more games with them, you will come to appreciate their versatility with the ability to infiltrate, harass, and if ignored, obliterate your opponent when deployed correctly.

When it comes to Rangers, I usually just give them a couple of Arc Rifles and call it a day. They're okay, just outclassed by Vanguard and Secutarii Peltasts.

I almost always take the Neuron Laser on my Onager because my local meta has very few fliers. I'm working on another Onager at the moment and I plan on magnetizing it as well, perhaps in a squadron of two it will be worth taking the Icarus Array, but just one by itself seems like it would make little difference.

RustStalkers, even in the War Convocation, their job is to look scary, draw fire, and die. If they survive to charge, cool, icing on the cake. If not, I don't really care. I tend to throw these guys in harms way fairly purposefully so that my opponent will waste fire on them and ignore the Infiltrators. An opponent who does not fight Ad mech regularly, will often take the bait.

Problem with the Neutron laser is that it only provides one shot, one chance at what you are looking for. The cognis stubber is quite nice, however.

What is the ideal target for the neutron laser? It should be destroying what it hits, or at least incapacitating what it hits. It's not so comfortable against AV14 (50% to glance or pen is too random for me), monstrous creatures with invulns and fnps (it will deal 1 wound max), or big infantry blobs (where killing 5 infantry is just a drop in the bucket). Which makes me a bit uncomfortable shelling the points out for it

Dragoons with taser lances are amazing. I tried for ages to use the sniper versions till finally succumbing to the hype and running the taser lances. They've been incredible thus far. My favorite instance was when 3 of them hit a guard's line and blew through 3 russes, a basilisk, and whatever the mortar tank thing is called (hydra?). Tabled the army top of turn 4. I only have 4 right now, but I'm workin toward running a full squad of 6. And peltasts give them a 3+ cover in the open... delicious.

Infiltrators and rustalkers have been wonky for me. Have had both be devastating and both be worthless. I've had one rustalker break into an opponent's backfield and wreck everything and I've had a 5 man of infiltrators remove 3 units simultaneously in a disorderly charge. I like them both mostly because of how awesome the models look haha!

Vanguard ARE the Skitarii faction. I've killed two wraithknights with them. TWO lol.

I think I've had bad luck with Onagers. Mine usually don't do much. I'm starting to run 2 giant lasers with xtra stubbers just to make sure they actually do something. Other than explode that is. They love those 6's on the damage table...

IMO, you're right about Vanguard. But, I'd say Dragoons with lances are the second best unit the skitarii have. At 45 points, you can't beat the devastation they can cause to most anything outside of wraithknights/lords and av14. If you lose a full squad of 6, which is way harder than it seems, that's only 270 points.

I have to second the comment that Dragoon's are amazing, they are my favorite unit in the entire Codex which is why I have 12 of them. I run them in 4 squads of 3 (two Skitarii Maniples) and they have absolutely wrecked face in every game I played in except one.

 gmaleron wrote:
I have to second the comment that Dragoon's are amazing, they are my favorite unit in the entire Codex which is why I have 12 of them. I run them in 4 squads of 3 (two Skitarii Maniples) and they have absolutely wrecked face in every game I played in except one.

Out of curiosity - what were you facing when they didn't wreck face and why didn't they?

I like the rangers for pushing forward with arc rifles due to moves through cover, but otherwise I agree with the above that they are mostly non-upgraded objective sitters. Vanguard are amazing of course, although no longer being able to use allied drop pods will be an adjustment since the last time I played them, I still feel foot slogging them or borrowing an allied rhino would be doable.

The neutron laser has been underwhelming for me. Always doing a small amount of damage or scattering off compared to what I originally thought it would do. Array is where it is at though, and heavy stubber is always worth it for the price point.

Give the dragoons more of a shot for sure, with lances they are wonderful, otherwise totally agreed on stuff.

I just wish the sniper rifle was cheaper that way I could equip then as such without feeling guilty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I just wish the sniper rifle was cheaper that way I could equip then as such without feeling guilty.

+1 to that. Another great model. I've always thought it'd help justify their points better if they had rad rounds. Still a possibility to pop a transport here and there just the same. But occasionally, you can put a huge hurting on a MC or some MEQs with a lucky roll.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I just wish the sniper rifle was cheaper that way I could equip then as such without feeling guilty.

You can equip them as such under a War Convocation

I don't want to run Admech thanks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't want to run Admech thanks.

Then we just need to wait until either Rangers get Stealth or the snipers become cheaper. Whichever one happens first, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't want to run Admech thanks.

But Kastellans are a blast! I often take an Elimination Maniple with my Skitarii since its a great way to spam grav and kastellans can form a very hardy center unit that can really wreck face if you let it.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't want to run Admech thanks.

But Kastellans are a blast! I often take an Elimination Maniple with my Skitarii since its a great way to spam grav and kastellans can form a very hardy center unit that can really wreck face if you let it.

Do you prefer the fists or the twin-linked heavy phosphor? Provide lots of info as to why you have your preference!

LexOdin9 wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't want to run Admech thanks.

But Kastellans are a blast! I often take an Elimination Maniple with my Skitarii since its a great way to spam grav and kastellans can form a very hardy center unit that can really wreck face if you let it.

Do you prefer the fists or the twin-linked heavy phosphor? Provide lots of info as to why you have your preference!

I have exclusively played with phoshor and TL phsphor. and ive enjoyed it so far because its is mostly a big angry marine killing blob. The 36in range lets you really hide out in cover and take advantage of the T7, FnP, and the occasional shrouding while possibly doing 6-9 wounds on marines or even taking out light vehicles. Im thinking of trying the incinerators sometime soon though to make them a bit more versatile. I never really cared for the fists because if im in CC as skitarii I probably failed (with the exception of Dragoons and Sicaran) because of their lack of mobility and you pretty much should be doing your FnP programming anyways.

As for Skitarii,

A guy in our local club's escalation league is running 7-8 ironstriders in the formation, and 5 onagers among some vanguard and a tech priest at 1250 points. He's been cleaning house pretty good. The 2 outflanking units of 3 dragoons has been really messing with people. I personally haven't tried that formation yet only because of the price tag. Slowly but surely ha.

Whether a unit kills an equivalent points value of enemies equal to its own cost is completely irrelevant to whether you win or lose the game. I don't understand why people even bring this up.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Out of curiosity - what were you facing when they didn't wreck face and why didn't they?

Was against Tau Fish of Fury list supported by Crisis Suits, he basically sat back and shot me to Pieces while stripping cover and drowning my Dragoons in shots from Fire Warriors and Smart Missiles.

I'm actually considering picking up some Cult Mechanicus to go along with my Skitarii and that includes Kastelans. Seems like the double Phosphor build is the most popular and for good reason, however now with the Genestealer Cults becoming very popular at my local meta and the shenanigans they can pull I am heavily leaning towards taking the Incinerators.

Alcibiades wrote:
Whether a unit kills an equivalent points value of enemies equal to its own cost is completely irrelevant to whether you win or lose the game. I don't understand why people even bring this up.

I agree with this sentiment. Looking at units only in terms of how much they kill is a bit short sighted. Army list selections should fulfill a role and be judged at how well they do that.

bogalubov wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Whether a unit kills an equivalent points value of enemies equal to its own cost is completely irrelevant to whether you win or lose the game. I don't understand why people even bring this up.

I agree with this sentiment. Looking at units only in terms of how much they kill is a bit short sighted. Army list selections should fulfill a role and be judged at how well they do that.

There are more than one way of getting points back. You're right. I should have included other metrics. But the units which I have rated poorly do not perform well under any given metric, whether it be durability (the ability to take massive amounts of firepower and still be standing), cost effectiveness (to accomplish some important task for a cheap cost at ppm), or lethality (ability to inflict significant damage per turn).

The Great
Vanguards: are hands down the best units in the Codex. They are very efficient for what they do. I like using them stock with omnispex and they are scary against everything that has no armor value.

The Good
Dragoons: Unfortunetly most of my experience with them has been against Tau, and everyone in that army has Str6 or higher. But if they make it to combat they wreck face

The Ok
Onager: If only used for Skyfire then Onager is actually great. But I was very underwhelmed with neutron or eradication beamer. It just does so little for so many points.


The Ugly
Rangers: Are nowhere near as good as Vanguards. The only time they are for some use is when there are objectives they can sit on at the back and enemy is further than 18" away

Infiltrators: Just too squishy for the cost. If they get in CC they will cause some hurt, but rarely happens.

Ruststalkers: Worse infiltrators


The I don't know
Ironstrider: For some reason I never find myself bringing these except that one time.


I think Skitarii needs their Cult Mech brothers to perform well. I had good experience using Elimination maniple and fill the gaps with Vanguard, Dragoons and Onagers. It is fluffy as well

Zalek wrote:
The Ok
Onager: If only used for Skyfire then Onager is actually great. But I was very underwhelmed with neutron or eradication beamer. It just does so little for so many points.

The I don't know
Ironstrider: For some reason I never find myself bringing these except that one time.

Have to disagree in regards to the Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser and additional Heavy Stubber, run all of the ones that are not anti air in this load out and they have been fantastic. Any enemy Heavy Armor or Heavy Infantry they have come across has had the crap kicked out of it and thanks to the dual Stubbers they do a pretty damn decent job handling swarm lists as well.

The Ironstrider is also a solid choice I have found especially if you run them in squadrons of 2 - 3. They are extremely effective in particular against light transports and monstrous creatures, the Space Marine players at my store in particular who run the Gladius formation hate them with a passion. Also if you would like the points to bring an anti-air dunecrawler they can make for a decent Poor Man's anti-air with the cognis Special Rule on the autocannon.

Zalek wrote:

Infiltrators: Just too squishy for the cost. If they get in CC they will cause some hurt, but rarely happens.

One thing that made them immensely better for me was to stop infiltrating them. The day I started giving them the infoslave skull and outflanking them, they became extremely dangerous. Since you're almost guaranteed to get them in where you want them, which can be even 1" away from something or ruins for a 3+, etc., most opponents can't ignore them. This buys some of our skitarii the one thing they need most. Uninterrupted movement forward.