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Does re-rolls on fail to hit re-roll scatter dice? What constitutes failing to hit with a scatter dice? If I hit 1 model instead of the 20 I intended to hit with a large blast can that be constituted as a failed hit and allow for re-rolls? Just curious

"Does re-rolls on fail to hit re-roll scatter dice?"
Page 158, under "blast weapons and re-rolls"

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6

"What constitutes failing to hit with a scatter dice?"
The same thing that constitutes failing to hit with any other weapon. If you fire and no hits are scored, you've failed to hit. If you've scored one hit then you haven't failed to hit, even if that hit is scored against a target other than the one you intended. So you cannot choose to re-roll if you didn't hit as many models as you wanted to.

Blast weapons don't roll to hit. Unless you have a special rule that specifically says you can reroll the scatter dice, you can't reroll the scatter dice.

The rules for blast weapons themselves give you permission to re-roll the scatter dice, in the rule that I quoted above.

What the rulebook says:

Bojazz wrote:"Does re-rolls on fail to hit re-roll scatter dice?"
Page 158, under "blast weapons and re-rolls"

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6

"What constitutes failing to hit with a scatter dice?"
The same thing that constitutes failing to hit with any other weapon. If you fire and no hits are scored, you've failed to hit. If you've scored one hit then you haven't failed to hit, even if that hit is scored against a target other than the one you intended. So you cannot choose to re-roll if you didn't hit as many models as you wanted to.

Except missing is not a prerequisite as listed for Blast Rerolls, just the ability to reroll the To Hit rolls.

What the Draft FAQ says:

Traditio wrote:Blast weapons don't roll to hit. Unless you have a special rule that specifically says you can reroll the scatter dice, you can't reroll the scatter dice.

Which makes a very interesting review process.

Bojazz wrote:
"Does re-rolls on fail to hit re-roll scatter dice?"
Page 158, under "blast weapons and re-rolls"

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6

"What constitutes failing to hit with a scatter dice?"
The same thing that constitutes failing to hit with any other weapon. If you fire and no hits are scored, you've failed to hit. If you've scored one hit then you haven't failed to hit, even if that hit is scored against a target other than the one you intended. So you cannot choose to re-roll if you didn't hit as many models as you wanted to.

Failing to hit with a scatter die could be taken to mean if you do not roll a Hit! on the scatter die but roll an arrow instead you get to reroll, not just if something is hit by the shot even if it scatters.

But, as Charistoph said, missing isn't a prerequisite listed for Blast re-rolls, just the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. You just have to reroll all the dice involved (scatter and distance dice).

Alright, I'm a bit confused here. You guys are saying that any form of re-rolling To Hit allows you to re-roll any blast shot you fire, regardless of whether or not you hit because you as the player get to determine what a hit is? Can someone walk me through the RAW on that please? (being honest, not passive aggressive)


Here's how I and my local GW interprets it:

 doctortom wrote:
Failing to hit with a scatter die could be taken to mean if you do not roll a Hit! on the scatter die but roll an arrow instead you get to reroll, not just if something is hit by the shot even if it scatters.

The blast rules state the unit suffers a hit for each model under the template. If you've scored a hit with your blast, that cannot be considered failing to hit. Breaking the tenets real quick - If you hit someone in the face, but not as hard as you wanted to, I don't think you could convince him that you didn't hit him.

The blast rules don't state the requirement of failing to hit because each special rule that gives you the ability to re-roll has their own requirements for it. For instance, twin linked allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls while preferred enemy allows you to re-roll To Hit results of 1. If Blast put a blanket permission to re-roll any "failed to hit rolls" then it would give preferred enemy a buff since it can't normally be re-rolled on any miss. The new Draft FAQ supports this with the question "Q: Does the ability to re-roll 1s allow you to re-roll scatter dice? A: No."

If you have permission to choose to re-roll failed To Hit rolls and then score a hit, you don't have the ability to re-roll that shot. So you do not have the ability to re-roll both the 2D6 and Scatter if you score a hit with a Blast.

Have they taught me wrong? Have I missed one of the FAQ questions that clears this up?

It gets more interesting depending on how view the ability to reroll To-Hit rolls (and there have been MANY discussions here on this). They fall in to two categories, conditional and unconditional.

Unconditional allows rerolls no matter what, doesn't matter if you missed or hit or what target you are trying To Hit, you can still reroll. These are incredibly rare. Not a single one of these can be found in the rulebook and all are codex-based. No one has a problem with these rerolling Blast Scatter dice.

Conditional are rerolls that 99% of the time require a miss of some kind and sometimes a specific target (usually like in Preferred Enemy, but could include Hatred and Zealot). The way the Draft FAQ is written, it would seem that these do not automatically provide a reroll because you cannot roll the required miss to trigger the reroll. The really odd part here is that other things which allow rerolls on similar cases also point to conditional rerolls as applying here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bojazz wrote:
Alright, I'm a bit confused here. You guys are saying that any form of re-rolling To Hit allows you to re-roll any blast shot you fire, regardless of whether or not you hit because you as the player get to determine what a hit is? Can someone walk me through the RAW on that please? (being honest, not passive aggressive)

Not quite. Just that "misses" are not required to reroll Blast Scatter Dice. Most of the rerolls out there are rerolls To Hit which require a miss to trigger the actual reroll, but Blast reroll doesn't state their trigger is required in order for its rules to be triggered.

Bojazz wrote:
The blast rules state the unit suffers a hit for each model under the template. If you've scored a hit with your blast, that cannot be considered failing to hit. Breaking the tenets real quick - If you hit someone in the face, but not as hard as you wanted to, I don't think you could convince him that you didn't hit him.

The blast rules don't state the requirement of failing to hit because each special rule that gives you the ability to re-roll has their own requirements for it. For instance, twin linked allows you to re-roll failed To Hit rolls while preferred enemy allows you to re-roll To Hit results of 1. If Blast put a blanket permission to re-roll any "failed to hit rolls" then it would give preferred enemy a buff since it can't normally be re-rolled on any miss. The new FAQ supports this with the question "Q: Does the ability to re-roll 1s allow you to re-roll scatter dice? A: No."

If you have permission to choose to re-roll failed To Hit rolls and then score a hit, you don't have the ability to re-roll that shot. So you do not have the ability to re-roll both the 2D6 and Scatter if you score a hit with a Blast.

Have they taught me wrong? Have I missed one of the FAQ questions that clears this up?

It's not necessarily wrong, but a very very narrow and limited viewpoint.

Think about this, if the ability to reroll 1s To Hit does not allow you to reroll Scatter dice, then BS 6+ means nothing to Blast Weapons, as rolling a 1 To Hit is the specific trigger for BS 6+. In this case there is no difference between a high BS and Preferred Enemy (aside from the possible required unit for Preferred Enemy). It also means that only a handful of reroll rules will actually work with Blast.

Okay, I'm starting to understand the weirdness here. So you're saying that RAW for the OP's scenario is "I don't know" because the rules aren't clear enough for a consistent ruling across all the special rules and circumstances that would provide the a conditional re-roll. So then I suppose my question becomes, "What is the common HIWPI?"

 Charistoph wrote:
Think about this, if the ability to reroll 1s To Hit does not allow you to reroll Scatter dice, then BS 6+ means nothing to Blast Weapons, as rolling a 1 To Hit is the specific trigger for BS 6+.

Not necessarily "nothing" as you would still get to remove 6+" off the scatter of the Blast weapon. Although I do see what you're getting at: Since Preferred enemy does not grant a re-roll as per the draft FAQ, that means BS5 with preferred enemy (which is effectively BS10) is actually worse at firing Blast weapons than a BS6 model, since neither get re-rolls and BS6 would get to remove 1" more off the scatter. Hence the "weirdness".

Bojazz wrote:
Okay, I'm starting to understand the weirdness here. So you're saying that RAW for the OP's scenario is "I don't know" because the rules aren't clear enough for a consistent ruling across all the special rules and circumstances that would provide the a conditional re-roll.

Again, the Blast Re-roll rules do not require any hits in order to re-roll them

If something else provides a re-rol, it is based on their individual rules. For example, Twin-linked Blast Weapons does specify "do not roll a hit" for its conditions. For Blast Weapons, you roll a Scatter Die which is "marked with arrows and a Hit! symbol". So, defining "roll a hit" is pretty explanatory at this point as only one thing is being rolled and can define a hit. And I am assuming that the OP is specifically talking about Twin-linked at this point, but I could be wrong.

Bojazz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Think about this, if the ability to reroll 1s To Hit does not allow you to reroll Scatter dice, then BS 6+ means nothing to Blast Weapons, as rolling a 1 To Hit is the specific trigger for BS 6+.

Not necessarily "nothing" as you would still get to remove 6+" off the scatter of the Blast weapon. Although I do see what you're getting at: Since Preferred enemy does not grant a re-roll as per the draft FAQ, that means BS5 with preferred enemy (which is effectively BS10) is actually worse at firing Blast weapons than a BS6 model, since neither get re-rolls and BS6 would get to remove 1" more off the scatter. Hence the "weirdness".

Yeah, the Draft FAQ is hinky at best, and a travesty in contradictory logical processes at worst. And let us not forget that Preferred Enemy also assists in Wounding as well, so it is not completely worse than BS 6, but it is in placing in relationship with the Scatter Dice.