Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just some shower musings...

Invuln Increasing Things
Grimoire of True Names, Sanctuary, etc.-are all now capped at a 3+. This is to prevent anyone from getting a 2+ Invuln unless they have it natively, like Shadowfield DE.

Feel No Pain
Is capped at 4+, like Reanimation Protocols.

Both of these changes combined make Smashfether much less scary-at best, he's looking at a 17/18 chance of denying an AP2 wound. (3+ Invuln, rerollable due to Veil of Time, then 4+ FNP.)

And then, the big change. The Weapon Skill Table.

If you are Double your opponent's WS, you hit on 2s.

If you are higher than, but not double, you hit on 3s.

If you are equal or one lower, you hit on 4s.

If you are two lower to double your own WS, you hit on 5s.

If you are doubled out plus one on WS, you hit on 6s.

The actual table here.

Invulns: I'd be alright with that. Storm Shields etc. aren't really affected. It just prevents you from stacking invulns on a unit and making a super death star. Note that this doesn't really stop the average screamer star from still getting a 3+ rerolling 1s invul.

FNP: These changes feel weirdly niche. outside of Captain Smash Fudger, there is very little FNP better than 4+. The only thing other than the aforementioned captain that comes to mind is a unit of Iron Hands with endurance up. Or a unit that keeps passing their toughness test against the Tzeentch primaris power that boosts your FNP.

What I'm getting at is that it seems like you're probably specifically trying to fix a particular space marine build with this one. Rather than adjusting a core rule to deal with a specific unit, why not just fix that unit instead? I'm not a fan of the -2 to FNP thing. As a dark eldar player, I'd be more annoyed by having to take the time to roll a bunch of 6+ FNP dice and watch them, precticably, fail to save anyone important than i would simply not getting the FNP at all. And no, I don't particularly like turn two of PFP. XD But seriously, just not granting them FNP is a tad simpler than incurring a -2. Especially since there aren't a ton of sources of FNP.

I like the weapon skill suggestion, though I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean by the last couple points. (I'm only now seeing that you linked to a table). High numbers hitting low numbers on 2s is good. Low numbers hitting high numbers on 6s is good.

Edited to remove the ID is -2 thing. You're right-unneeded.

And trust me, the difference between a 3+ rerolling 1s and a 2+ rerolling 1s (or even both of those, rerolling everything) is MASSIVE!

2+ Rerollable is 1/36 chance of failure, or about a 3% chance.

3+ Rerollable is a 1/9 chance of failure, or about 11%. Damn near 4 times as likely.

And 3+, rerolling 1s, is a 2/9 chance of failure, or 22%.

I recently play tested a game using WS like BS.

I had to adjust the stat lines of all the units in play but my general guides lines were

If the unit is built for melee (Hormagaunts / assault marines / Lychguard) WS 4

If the unit is capable of melee but it's not their shtick (Tyranid Warriors / Tac Marines) WS 3

If the unit should never be in melee WS 2 (Zoanthropes)

If the unit is CRAZY good for melee. Very specific characters and such, WS 5.

Then just treat it like BS. A WS 3 hits on 4+ and such. It made the game run real smooth with more or less no change to how the game runs now 90% of the time. No chart to cross reference. No asking what each models WS is. Just 1 number = target for success that everyone is used to.

Why would tac marines become less good at melee as they rise in the ranks and become better at being marines?

In the event that you didn't know:

Space marines start off as normal people who are carefully selected based on how totally awesome they are. They get various operations, implants, injections, etc. to make them more CAPTAIN AMERICA awesome.

While they're being bio-engineered, they begin their military training as space marine scouts. When they end their training as scouts, they finally get their last implant, the black carapace, which allows them to "synch up" with their power armor.

They then become devastator marines. As their training and skill increases, they become assault marines. When they finally master both close combat and ranged combat, they become tactical marines.

Tac Marines should have solid 4s.

Every marine (with the possible exception of scouts) should have 4s or better.

Every marine is essentially Captain America on steroids.

That's why they cost more than termagaunts, ork boyz and guardsmen.

As stated. It was a play test of a generalized system. No codex rewrites have taken place. No fluff has been taken into consideration yet.

Arguing over the specific fluff of a specific unit in that scenario is ridiculous.

 Lance845 wrote:
As stated. It was a play test of a generalized system. No codex rewrites have taken place. No fluff has been taken into consideration yet.

Arguing over the specific fluff of a specific unit in that scenario is ridiculous.

Just something to keep in mind as you revise and continue to work on your system.

Tac marines are always awesome all the time. That's why they cost a minimum of 14 ppm. Except scouts.

The OP's weapon skill idea further complicates the current one, which is bad. Although I do like that it uses more of the die. I like Lance845's idea though.

Agree with Wyldhunt, it seems like you're trying to make one certain particular model loadout go away more than anything with the FNP. Do you have Smashfether facing you very often? It's probably not a bad change, but is it needed?

Jacksmiles wrote:
The OP's weapon skill idea further complicates the current one, which is bad. Although I do like that it uses more of the die. I like Lance845's idea though.

Agree with Wyldhunt, it seems like you're trying to make one certain particular model loadout go away more than anything with the FNP. Do you have Smashfether facing you very often? It's probably not a bad change, but is it needed?

This is actually a nerf for myself-I can nab Daemon Princes with a 3+ FNP.

Basically, the goal is to make it so you can never have more than a 95% chance of ignoring a wound with Invuln saves. Smash is the only one I know of who can truly abuse this, but Screamstars, Wulfen with Sanctuary and Veil of Time...

Like I said. These are minor changes (except for maybe the WS table) but I don't want to alter the game too much. Just little changes, a bit at a time, to slowly make it more balanced.

Another moderately-common unit with 3+ FNP is an Iron Hands command squad (with Apothecary, which they'll generally have) in the Fist of Medusa Strike Force, if there's an IC within 12" (which isn't rare - command squads often escort a Chaplain, Captain or Librarian).

Nerfing that down to 4+ is fine, IMHO, thus leaving the FoMSF benefit mainly for improving most other units from 6+ to 5+, which is probably what the designer had in mind.