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More specifically , if you wanted to run a Favored of Chaos formation, which mutation table is the best to use? Here are some thoughts ive come up with.

Crimson Slaughter table:
Pros: Move as beasts after the first turn. Shrouded for nice cover saves and Invuln 3 when no cover can be taken. Shred helps the lack of AP 3.
Solves the problem of slow infantry assault models.
Cons : You lose a attack 1 initiative and ap3.
Your demon prince either needs to swoop to keep up (keeping him out of assaults until your possessed lock in assault with their targets or you move as a jump MC and lose jink making the prince a easier target.
You need mark the Possessed with Khorne to make up for the lost attack. And that only helps with the charge turn. So no T5 for you.
CSM table :
Pros : You get ap 3 init +1 and + 1 attack (which helps a ton) .
More (useful) choices of marks.
Cons : SLOWWWWWWWWW. Unless you put them in land raiders, but what mad man is going to do that?

So which would you chose? It would seem the no brainer is the CS mutations. But the loss of a attack and ap3 really, really bothers me.


Also, bonus question. How would you run the DP of the formation? My idea is that it needs to be nurgle and swoop for that sweet 2+ jink. But you also need to be in within 12 inchs of the Possessed at the start of each fight sub-phase, so that can get tricky with Swooping.

And yes, I know Possessed are terrible. Im asking what you would do if you HAD to run the formation. Thanks in advance for the input.

You can't take the new possessed traitors hate formation with a CS detatchment because the Daemon Prince has manditory VoTLW. And because CS detatchments can't take units with VoTLW so they cant take that formation. Guess it makes your choice easier huh.

You can't use crimson slaughter for the Favoured of Chaos formation because you can't legally take the Daemon Prince

Reavas wrote:
You can't take the new possessed traitors hate formation with a CS detatchment because the Daemon Prince has manditory VoTLW. And because CS detatchments can't take units with VoTLW so they cant take that formation. Guess it makes your choice easier huh.

Yep, totally missed that as part of the unit entry in the CSM codex. I guess that does limit my choices.

MODERATOR : You can close this thread as it is no longer (or ever was) a valid question. Sorry to everyone who wasted their time with my ignorance.

Also just so you know you don't need to be swooping to be able to jink with the DP. You can glide and jink too

Crymson slaughter table is what can make possessed playable. You can't take it.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Also just so you know you don't need to be swooping to be able to jink with the DP. You can glide and jink too

Yes, I didnt run flyers when playing necrons and didnt face them much either. I guess I need to brush up on those rules because chaos has some excellent flyers. Thanks for the info


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Crymson slaughter table is what can make possessed playable. You can't take it.

At this point id say even WITH the CS table, you wouldnt get much use out of them. Rolling beasts when in combat ect.
The regular table, when gaining all three options at leasat makes them semi-decent in actual combat. But you are left with how to get them into said combat without land raiders. And who is going to buy 3 raiders just to haul your mediocre assault units to the other side of the board. Heck id even say mutilators would be a better choice of cargo for a LR. Which gives me another idea......(ill read the rules with more scrutiny this time before presenting it).

Lets hope, in our next codex. If we get one and arnt split up into 4 demonkin dexs. That give the Possessed the ability to move like beasts stock and to make the table a bit more potent such as +2 attacks +2 init ect. Because right now, the only reason to even take possessed is if you could get the CS table with the Traitors formation, which, as explained in detail above, you cant :(,

I touched on possessed i this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705255.page.
CS possessed have their advantages, but I don't think they'r better than the vanilla tale, just different.
But I wouldn't use possessed outside of the favoured of chaos or the tormented, neither of which can be CS possessed.

With both of those possessed can be good, except from a points perspective. They can even somewhat reliably take down a melee wraithknight, but all the support you need really limits your list.
Between the marks and icons and legacies you can have a really hard hitting unit, they can also benefit from the grimoire for re-rollable 2++ saves. There are ways to make up for the lack of grenades too.
It's just all really expensive and you kinda need it all, and that's just for one unit of possessed. But the formations force you to take multiples making it yet more expensive to make them work.
Even just taking them naked they're still 130 points of useless. And to make them work you're looking at like 700+ points per unit, between the transports and icons and all that. And you still have to pay for the prince.

They might be cheaper with psychic power support but that's just super unreliable to me.

How do you get re-rollable 2++? Grimoire + cursed earth + astartes powers?

If I had to take the formation I'd just put three units of stock possessed in rhinos and glide a MoN daemon prince alongside them. With enough threat saturation from the rest of the list some of those possessed units will probably get through.

 koooaei wrote:
How do you get re-rollable 2++? Grimoire + cursed earth + astartes powers?

MoT for a 4++, grimoired to a 2++. Both of those are more or less guaranteed. So you just need to get the power to make it rerollable. Guaranteed 2++ isn't exactly bad either mind you.

For other marks it becomes a bit iffy, since you need grimoire + 2 powers. Either divination or malediction would work but yea. Still, you just need one power + grimoire for a 2++. It won't be re-rollable but it you get the benefits from other marks instead, but it's too risky for me. I'd rather stick to legacies or whatever then. You can choose any mark and gain feel no pain via auloth or go with nurgle for extra def and get rending.

MoT can never be improved beyond a 3++.. They also get Mark of Tzeentch, not Daemon of Tzeentch- so you're not re-rolling 1's.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
MoT can never be improved beyond a 3++.. They also get Mark of Tzeentch, not Daemon of Tzeentch- so you're not re-rolling 1's.

The MoT thing is debatable, but I do keep forgetting that myself, so thanks for reminding me. So yea MoT for 2++ if you allow that.
You don't need to be a daemon of tzeentch though. The new astartes powers allow us to reroll if you happen to get the power.

How's it debatable if it states that the model with Mark of Tzeench can never get his invul higher than 3++

I totally forgot about the new psyker power for re-rolling saving throws...
Best you can get is 3+, 3++ re rolling.. And I suppose a 4+ FNP if you cast endurance..
There really is no debate on whether you can improve a invuln save better than a 3+ or not. You can't. The MoT rule makes that perfectly clear, as it says- a model with MoT may not improve their invuln better than a 3+... I don't understand where a debate would come in.

In that case go nuts with MoN or MoS + the Banner

And yet everytime MoT comes up there end up being people that allow it and people that don't depending on how and when you apply the MoT, but that would be derailing the thread. So I'll just leave it at that.
I'm just so used to my group allowing it, that I keep forgetting that it's not normal.

But back to the marks. No matter what mark you get, you can have fnp. You don't need MoS for that.
If you're taking a transport as a delivery system that isn't a bad option as it applies to all three units if you keep them close. If you're playing with RAI that is, in which case the icon of vengeance is only 5 points plus 40 points for the legacy which any unit can benefit from.
So even for one unit, it's only 10 points more than the icon of excess with the chance to apply to more than one unit. It also gives the vehicle pinning, so if you're lucky you can pin a unit for one of the other units.
Of course it forces you to bunch up and you loose fnp when the tank dies, and, for better or worse, that vehicle also becomes a massive fire magnet. Alternatively you could put it on a knight or flyer. (although a knight makes this super duper expensive.)

So worst case, MoT + grimoire is the equivalent of giving them stormshields. And fnp.
MoN gives you T5 plus rending or fnp , depening on legacy and icon. Rending might not add too much considering they already have S5 and Ap3 but you might be low on anti tank/knight and rending helps there.
MoS allows them to strike before just about anything and makes you less reliable on that one vehicle. Potentially more expensive though.
MoK + wrath icon is pretty decent when using auloth as RAW. Then they get 6 strength plus the extra attacks from MoK and FNP. RAI is still ok.

Might also be worth noting that Khorne daemonkin possessed can benefit from a different legacy to get a 2++. They are proper daemons of khorne.
As such they can get a 4++ from 1st war of armageddon which becomes a 2++ with grimoire and you can easily sneak in a skull cannon to make up for the grenades. Although at that point you're playing CSM+Daemons+KDK.
And with an extra dosage of luck they can get fnp from blood tithes and can be buffed by our new loyalist flavoured powers.

 Roknar wrote:
And yet everytime MoT comes up there end up being people that allow it and people that don't depending on how and when you apply the MoT, but that would be derailing the thread. So I'll just leave it at that.
I'm just so used to my group allowing it, that I keep forgetting that it's not normal.

But back to the marks. No matter what mark you get, you can have fnp. You don't need MoS for that.
If you're taking a transport as a delivery system that isn't a bad option as it applies to all three units if you keep them close. If you're playing with RAI that is, in which case the icon of vengeance is only 5 points plus 40 points for the legacy which any unit can benefit from.
So even for one unit, it's only 10 points more than the icon of excess with the chance to apply to more than one unit. It also gives the vehicle pinning, so if you're lucky you can pin a unit for one of the other units.
Of course it forces you to bunch up and you loose fnp when the tank dies, and, for better or worse, that vehicle also becomes a massive fire magnet. Alternatively you could put it on a knight or flyer. (although a knight makes this super duper expensive.)

So worst case, MoT + grimoire is the equivalent of giving them stormshields. And fnp.
MoN gives you T5 plus rending or fnp , depening on legacy and icon. Rending might not add too much considering they already have S5 and Ap3 but you might be low on anti tank/knight and rending helps there.
MoS allows them to strike before just about anything and makes you less reliable on that one vehicle. Potentially more expensive though.
MoK + wrath icon is pretty decent when using auloth as RAW. Then they get 6 strength plus the extra attacks from MoK and FNP. RAI is still ok.

Might also be worth noting that Khorne daemonkin possessed can benefit from a different legacy to get a 2++. They are proper daemons of khorne.
As such they can get a 4++ from 1st war of armageddon which becomes a 2++ with grimoire and you can easily sneak in a skull cannon to make up for the grenades. Although at that point you're playing CSM+Daemons+KDK.
And with an extra dosage of luck they can get fnp from blood tithes and can be buffed by our new loyalist flavoured powers.

I dont think forgeworld should be taken into account when planning for games of 40k. My group doesnt allow it, others do. The tournaments in my area (los angeles) do not allow forgeworld. But mileage may vary. Its interesting to read about legacies however. Its to bad alot of CSM players dont have access to IA13 as that fixs alot of what is broken about our dex.