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Made in us
Norn Queen






This question has been crossing my mind for months and months now. When I was thinking of ways to make nids function properly on the table it always come back to synapse and IB. Because of course it does. Those 2 rules govern every aspect of Tyranid list building.

So I wanted to start a small discussion about IB.

Synapse provides a crazy buff at the moment in the form of fearless. Even if we don't assume that changes, look at the non synapse creatures. For the most part they have abysmal leadership. Anyone who gets into a fight with some hormagaunts is likely to deal some unsaved wounds. If they win that fight and those hormagaunts have to make a moral test. They will loose that test.

Do we really need IB to balance out Synapse? A lot of Nid units could really benefit from being able to make use of the Tyranocyte drop pod or their deep strike rules (rippers, raveners, trygons, mawlocs,) that sort of all fall apart because of their weak leadership and the unreliability of getting a sufficient synapse web in the back field. What if a Tyranid player wanted to keep units in synapse for the buff, but the units could remain functional without it? If 3 raveners lands in your back field and you shoot 1 they have to make a leadership test or fall back. Doesn't that in and of itself balance out? Synapse would no longer be both the pillar that holds up the army and the shackle that holds it back, Instead it could become just the support structure that made the army shine.

What if, and I am just spit balling here, IB just went away?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 20:32:59



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





I personally think that IB has it's place justified in part because it shows how the Nids are reliant the synaptic creatures for guidance. But they also get to cost less points then a comparable model. IB was not made to be a buff but a weakness and I think it should stay. On the note of deep striking stuff suffering from it my best effort to fix that would be to make the tygon prime cost less and make tenocytes have some kind of synapse,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 20:45:48


Ultramarine 6000 : Imperial Knights 1700 : Grey Knights 1000 : Ad mech 500 :Nids 4000 : Necrons 500 : Death watch 500 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

...absolutely nothing.

At least as it currently stands. Since the last homebrew Nids dex appeared here back in September I've been working on my own version and made Synapse dish out +1 WS and BS as well as Fearless (considering changing Fearless though) with units out of Synapse range rolling a D6 and only falling back on a 1. The problem from there is balancing out the stats of each unit because I don't think we really need BS4 Devilgaunts, but still want these models somewhat useable when out of Synapse range.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 mew28 wrote:
I personally think that IB has it's place justified in part because it shows how the Nids are reliant the synaptic creatures for guidance. But they also get to cost less points then a comparable model. IB was not made to be a buff but a weakness and I think it should stay. On the note of deep striking stuff suffering from it my best effort to fix that would be to make the tygon prime cost less and make tenocytes have some kind of synapse,


You don't think that non synapse nids incredibly low Ld already makes them reliant on Synapse?

I am not entirely sure Nids cost less for equivalent models. For one, it's incredibly difficult to gauge that considering what a mess most Tyranid units are rules wise. It's very rare to find any Nid unit that is actually costed appropriately in ANY capacity. I do understand that IB is not a buff but a weakness. What I am asking is sort of 2 questions. 1) does that weakness invalidate many of the options delivered to nids and pigeon hole them into a single tactic (something NOT in line with the fluff and incredibly damaging to miniature war games in general)? 2) Is that the nature of IB? Is there a version of IB we can come up with that doesn't have this effect?

Making a Trygon Prime cost less or Tyranocytes provide synapse would not remove the problem. Gargoyles and Raveners who have a fast move would be tethered to their slower moving synapse anchors. While other armys can use jump infantry and beasts as fast moving objective grabbers Nids need a second Synapse unit to make that objective grabber stay on point. IB turns synapse into a 12" functioning bubble. Without it the Nids literally fall apart. That doesn't seem particularly interesting from a game stand point.

I agree that synapse creatures should be a target. With their low LD and the high chance of running nids right off the board without Synapse around isn't that already pretty devastating? Doesn't the LD score by itself provide a good counter to Synapse?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ca
Sneaky Lictor



oromocto

Honestly just make warriors/strikes cost 5-10pts less each and add an option to take a ml1 psychic brood leader for 10-20pts. This would allow you to actually use the warrior based Synapse to support your army rather than relying on single zoanthropes and malanthropes.

Edit and add a 10 pts wing option to the prime ....and reduce his cost by 30pts or so lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:36:50


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




IB is such a downfall that there needs to be more buffs from Synapse outside Fearless.

However I agree that it should stay.because it is super fluffy.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Sneaky Lictor



oromocto

Or like back in 4th add a Synapse node option to all the griddle broods that gives ld 10.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Timeshadow wrote:
Honestly just make warriors/strikes cost 5-10pts less each and add an option to take a ml1 psychic brood leader for 10-20pts. This would allow you to actually use the warrior based Synapse to support your army rather than relying on single zoanthropes and malanthropes.

Edit and add a 10 pts wing option to the prime ....and reduce his cost by 30pts or so lol.


I am not actually trying to make this discussion about how to change the units to make up for IB. More about The nature of IB itself and whether its detrimental to the whole experience. Interesting negative effects can build really interesting game play. I am not so sure IB does that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timeshadow wrote:
Or like back in 4th add a Synapse node option to all the griddle broods that gives ld 10.


This is more interesting. How exactly did that work? Did it upgrade a single model or did the whole unit just boost to Ld 10?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that several units in the Nid lineup already just don't have IB because the rule would make them non functioning. Namely Harpys and Hive Crones. I have never once seen a complaint about those units being unfluffy because they are non synapse units that do not require synapse but other examples do exist. Spore Mines, Tyranocytes, Sporcysts...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:56:55



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

I think IB is a good thing for 'Nids to have for the reasons Mew28 mentioned:
mew28 wrote:I personally think that IB has it's place justified in part because it shows how the Nids are reliant the synaptic creatures for guidance. But they also get to cost less points then a comparable model. IB was not made to be a buff but a weakness and I think it should stay.

They are there to provide a counter to just how powerful they could be in Synapse. However, I do not think it is doing the right job. Putting it under a dice roll should not be happening, for example.

Imateria wrote:At least as it currently stands. Since the last homebrew Nids dex appeared here back in September I've been working on my own version and made Synapse dish out +1 WS and BS as well as Fearless (considering changing Fearless though) with units out of Synapse range rolling a D6 and only falling back on a 1. The problem from there is balancing out the stats of each unit because I don't think we really need BS4 Devilgaunts, but still want these models somewhat useable when out of Synapse range.

They should be usable outside of Synapse, but I think that such a blanket rule should not be in the system. What we should be looking at is the types of Instinctive Behavior and providing certain minor buffs for following through with the type of Behavior.

For example, outside of Synapse: Lurkers gain a Ld bonus if they are in Cover, Feeders gain Stubborn in Close Combat, and Hunters gain Crusader or an appropriate Ld bonus for ranged units. Inside of Synapse, Lurkers gain Fearless and Stealth (Difficult Terrain), Feeders gain Fearless and Rage (or Rampage), and Hunters gain Fearless, Crusader, and Preferred Enemy (all).

This is just off the top of my head, but it provides minimal bonuses outside of Synapse which allow the units to be "normal" provided you fit it in to the paradigm of what their behavior is. Termagants will likely flee if you leave them out in the open and out of Synapse, but put them in to cover, and they can be as hard to dislodge with Shooting as Marines or Guard with a Commissar. Hormagaunts can then swarm in to a target out of Synapse, take casualties, but still not be running for the hills every combat. And so on. So, in short, base stats should be in the "negative" zone, but IB should provide compensation for limiting them to certain actions. Synapse would then make them mean as hell.

Alternatively, it can be taken the other way, base stats are more "average" for their type, but IB has a pure negative unless conditions are met outside of Synapse, i.e. Lurkers lose Ld when not in Difficult Terrain, Feeders have to take a Morale Check when Shot and its Ld reduced by the Wounds lost to Shooting that Phase, and Hunters are considered in Night Fighting (being predictable shooters) or lose range on their guns while not in Synapse. Things like that.

Either way, Keep It Simple, leave off the die roll, and make it clear what the "base desires" of such a unit are and reward the player for getting the unit in to its preferred conditions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 22:05:57


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I managed to find a 4th ed Tyranid Codex pdf. Couldn't find any upgrade named or functioning like a "Synaptic Node" that was described.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in mx
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Mexico

Because IIRC that's 3rd edition, not 4th.
   
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Astonished of Heck

Tyran wrote:
Because IIRC that's 3rd edition, not 4th.

Yeah, I think that much like Chaos Marines, Tyranids are still paying for the sins of their codices from back then. The current Instinctive Behavior rules are just a reflection of that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 23:56:38


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
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 Lance845 wrote:
I managed to find a 4th ed Tyranid Codex pdf. Couldn't find any upgrade named or functioning like a "Synaptic Node" that was described.


Sounds like one of the army-modifying rules available in the BRB from 3rd edition, but I'm not sure. I don't recall ever seeing it in any of my 'nid books, and I think I have every one of them dating back to 3rd edition.

Regarding BI and Synapse, the way I see it is this:

Synapse exists to give the impression of the hive mind controlling and guiding your army. It's a flavorful force multiplier. Instinctive behavior is meant to reflect 'nids falling into disarray when the synapse is gone. It shouldn't necessarily make your squads fall on each other (like it sometimes does now) or become totally useless, but it should feel like your army of cells-in-a-giant-monster just became a bunch of wild animals suddenly bereft of intelligent guidance. If tyranids were a boss fight, synapse is the weak point you're supposed to hit to weaken that boss. It's also worth mentioning that the hive mind doesn't cease to function entirely just because a gaunt gets 30 feet away from a warrior. There should still be some general (if unrefined) impulses being transmitted to a bug on a 'nid infested world.

So with that in mind, I think the goals of these rules should be...
* To make synapse a bonus rather than a straightjacket.
* To make instinctive behavior a way of reflecting an army lacking higher guidance.

I'd be tempted to get rid of the IB tables and even the leadership test associated with it. You're right about low leadership; it's a pretty crippling drawback for a unit that isn't actively fearless. Instead, my idea of the moment is to say that IB only kicks in when there are no synapse creatures on the table (not just outside of "synapse range") and that IB creates automatic restrictions rather than a lot of complicated rolling. For instance, when there are no synapse creatures left on the table...
Feeders have to move towards and charge the nearest target, running towards it if they're outside charge range.
Hunters have to move towards the nearest target in the movement phase if none of their guns are in range. They have to run in the shooting phase if none of their guns are in range. They have to shoot in the shooting phase if any of their guns are in range.
Lurkers must attempt to end their movement phase in terrain if at all possible but can behave normally in subsequent phases. So you can charge out of terrain. You're just compelled to hug that terrain for the first part of your turn.

And that's it for IB. No tables. No killing yourself. No awkwardly hoping for a weird buff if you happen to get the right result. No taking the time to roll leadership for a bunch of units.

As for synapse, I feel that you should be able to choose an army-wide buff each turn for all 'nids in synapse range. Think of it as the hive mind reaching out and filling the 'nids with powerful, primal commands or investing more focus into them to make them more skilled/clever. Called it the "Synaptic Impulses" rule. Sample impulses might include...

HUNT: Models within synapse can shoot or charge after running (but not both). Models arriving from deepstrike do not scatter if they arrive within synapse range.
LIVE: Models within synapse gain FNP and Eternal Warrior.
KILL: Models within synapse gain +1 WS and BS and ignore initiative penalties when charging through terrain.
HIDE: Models within synapse gain Stealth.


Slight tangent, but I also like the idea of giving the tyranids a list of pre-game options to choose from called "Adaptations." So the idea is that you have the adaptations that represent pre-game biomorphs the swarm uses to adapt for a given fight and the mid-game impulses that represent the hivemind actively controlling its forces. Some adaptation examples:

PERFECT PREDATORS: The tyranids have become camouflaged with and adept at navigating the local environs. Army-wide stealth and move through cover.
SWIFT SKITTERING: The tyranids have adapted to cover large swaths of ground quickly. All units in the army move an extra 3" in the movement phase and gain Fleet.
EVOLVED ARMOR: The tyranids have adapted their physiologies to counter the foe's weapons. When a tyranid from this detachment would have its armor ignored due to the AP of a weapon, it instead simply takes a -1 to that armor save. So a krak missile doesn't ignore a carnifex's armor, but it does reduce that armor save to a 4+. Models with 5+ or 6+ armor saves improve their saves by 1.




ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Absolutely not. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Either have synapse and suffer when you lose it.

Or don't have synapse and lose the benefits of having it.

I'm fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless...who become useless once I kill the big bugs.

I'm also fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts without fearless who can go wherever they want.

I am not fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless who suffer absolutely no ill effects upon losing it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

If you want space marine stats, then pay space marine points costs.

You don't want to pay space marine points costs?

Then accept the fact that your cheap little models have significant limitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And may I add:

You do want to go the route of getting rid of synapse?

I'm fine with that.

Provided that you then go through the Daemons, etc. codices and find the points cost for comparable MCs in those codices and raise your MC prices appropriately.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 03:11:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Traditio wrote:
Absolutely not. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Either have synapse and suffer when you lose it.

Or don't have synapse and lose the benefits of having it.

I'm fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless...who become useless once I kill the big bugs.

I'm also fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts without fearless who can go wherever they want.

I am not fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless who suffer absolutely no ill effects upon losing it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

If you want space marine stats, then pay space marine points costs.

You don't want to pay space marine points costs?

Then accept the fact that your cheap little models have significant limitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And may I add:

You do want to go the route of getting rid of synapse?

I'm fine with that.

Provided that you then go through the Daemons, etc. codices and find the points cost for comparable MCs in those codices and raise your MC prices appropriately.


I think having a crummy leadership stat on a footslogging army when not in synapse range is suffering when you lose it. Which suggestion were you replying to though? Mine? The OP's?

Have you had bad experiences with little bugs recently? Most 'nid players seem to avoid them like the plague because they're just not very good these days. Have you had experiences with little bugs where you went, "Man, I'd really be in trouble right now if it weren't for instinctive behavior. I'm sure glad my opponent has to take the time to roll for this whenever he's outside of synapse. There's no way I could be t3 6+ save models otherwise."?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Traditio wrote:
Absolutely not. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Either have synapse and suffer when you lose it.

Or don't have synapse and lose the benefits of having it.

I'm fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless...who become useless once I kill the big bugs.

I'm also fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts without fearless who can go wherever they want.

I am not fine with the existence of 4 ppm termagaunts with fearless who suffer absolutely no ill effects upon losing it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again:

If you want space marine stats, then pay space marine points costs.

You don't want to pay space marine points costs?

Then accept the fact that your cheap little models have significant limitations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And may I add:

You do want to go the route of getting rid of synapse?

I'm fine with that.

Provided that you then go through the Daemons, etc. codices and find the points cost for comparable MCs in those codices and raise your MC prices appropriately.

The limitation should be its point cost. Units can have good rules with out a mechanical drawback and still be balanced by costing more points then a unit with out those good rules.
   
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CrownAxe wrote:The limitation should be its point cost. Units can have good rules with out a mechanical drawback and still be balanced by costing more points then a unit with out those good rules.


That's what I'm getting at. I don't think that 4 ppm fearless termagaunts without a mechanical drawback would be proportionate to its points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt wrote:I think having a crummy leadership stat on a footslogging army when not in synapse range is suffering when you lose it. Which suggestion were you replying to though? Mine? The OP's?


It was a direct reply to the OP.

And no, that's not "suffering when you lose it." Having a relatively low leadership is part and parcel of the total package of the unit.

Again, I repeat:

They cost 4 ppm.

I add:

You don't have to pay an extra 10 bloody points per unit for a mandatory sergeant upgrade.

Have you had bad experiences with little bugs recently? Most 'nid players seem to avoid them like the plague because they're just not very good these days. Have you had experiences with little bugs where you went, "Man, I'd really be in trouble right now if it weren't for instinctive behavior. I'm sure glad my opponent has to take the time to roll for this whenever he's outside of synapse. There's no way I could be t3 6+ save models otherwise."?


Tyranid players "seem to avoid them" because flyrants exist. If your only goal is to win, why take anything other than flyrants and sporemines?

But no, I don't have bad experiences with little bugs. I think that little bugs are just fine as is, and given the fact that they have fearless, they can be pretty effective against non-competitive armies (e.g., my army) in exactly three ways:

1. Mobile cover. If you have little bugs in between my devastator marines and your carnifex, and you have a venonthrope right behind said carnifex, enjoy that 3+ cover save. 2+ if NF is in effect.

2. Cheap bodies for grabbing objectives.

3. Tarpits.

Termagants have been known to chase down sternguard units and keep them locked up until a a carnifex or comparable MC can deal with them properly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 05:35:50


 
   
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 Traditio wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:The limitation should be its point cost. Units can have good rules with out a mechanical drawback and still be balanced by costing more points then a unit with out those good rules.


That's what I'm getting at. I don't think that 4 ppm fearless termagaunts without a mechanical drawback would be proportionate to its points cost.


Considering that termagants are basically that right now and still aren't a good unit (in fact they are a bad unit) it's pretty safe to say your thoughts on this specific matter are wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 05:57:15


 
   
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CrownAxe wrote:Considering that termagants are basically that right now and still aren't a good unit (in fact they are a bad unit) it's pretty safe to say your thoughts on this specific matter are wrong.


Bad relative to what?

They're about as good or better than cultists w/o upgrades.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Synapse and Instinctual Behaviors are good, fluffy ideas but they were implemented in the most horrible way mechanically that it makes the army paraplegic.

Its a shame that Eldar wraiths have lost the wraithsight limitation, Ogryns have lost Stupid, Necrons have lost "We'll be Back..." and other such rules have been abandoned, but Tyranids are still saddled with being out of Synapse and self-devouring IB.

It should be possible for the Tyranid army to function at a basic level if it loses its synapse, but it should definitely act better if synapse is present. Sure, they shouldn't work at peak efficiency, but at the same time they shouldn't be crippled any worse than Imperial Guard without someone who can issue Orders.

Personally, I'd like to see base Tyranids have a Ld of 7, big bugs an 8 and Synapse creatures have Ld 10. Genestealers and Lictors, who are used to being out of Synapse might have an 8 or possibly a 9 (good choice for a Broodlord) Creatures in synapse get the Ld 10 and Stubborn, so they can still be driven off, but numeric losses in melee don't scare them off easily.

There should be an upgrade option to "evolve" a single 'nid in a squad for something like a Synapse node. They can't supply synapse to another unit, but the unit itself is considered to be in an inferior form synapse (maybe only +1 Ld instead of Ld 10, and perhaps Stubborn but not Fearless). This lets you employ units for flank and deep strike attacks while still giving a nod to the fluff.

I'd like to see IB go away, completely. If it's kept though, I would say it should prevent you from performing certain actions, or direct you to strive to do a certain action, such as:

FEED: Have to close with the enemy at maximum speed, charge opponent if in range
HUNT: Close with enemy, using coving as available, charge opponent if in range
LURK: Have to move to closest cover; Can only charge enemies who come into charge range of cover

Of course, Tyranids have lot more issues than Synapse and IB, and their junk units need an overhaul before amending these two issues will make any difference.

It never ends well 
   
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 Traditio wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:Considering that termagants are basically that right now and still aren't a good unit (in fact they are a bad unit) it's pretty safe to say your thoughts on this specific matter are wrong.


Bad relative to what?

They're about as good or better than cultists w/o upgrades.


You don't need a relative comparison. They literally don't work as a unit.

They are a slow, fragile walking melee unit. They literally do not work as a unit because they are easily wipse out before they can even get remotely close to a unit to do anything to it

Cultists aren't great but they at least have guns
   
Made in us
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CrownAxe wrote:You don't need a relative comparison. They literally don't work as a unit.

They are a slow, fragile walking melee unit. They literally do not work as a unit because they are easily wipse out before they can even get remotely close to a unit to do anything to it

Cultists aren't great but they at least have guns


If your claim is merely that they don't work, regardless of the opponent, then I have to disagree.

In fact, I have personally experienced termagants sitting on objectives, tarpitting my sternguard and providing cover saves to MCs.

So...no. You're just wrong.
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

They're between conscripts and guardsmen in point cost and ability.

Sure, they also become fearless when in synapse range, but so do those conscripts when you throw in a cheap priest (zealot really, which is fearless + a close combat buff. Even better).

They lack the ability those IoM units have to get buffs by attaching independent characters. The only one they can get is the tyranid prime, which is a staggering 125 point + upgrades HQ unit, and doesn't actually do anything for the gaunts aside from provide synapse.
They also lack the ability to ride around in transports.
They also have that tendency to run off the table when left to their own devices.
   
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 Traditio wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:You don't need a relative comparison. They literally don't work as a unit.

They are a slow, fragile walking melee unit. They literally do not work as a unit because they are easily wipse out before they can even get remotely close to a unit to do anything to it

Cultists aren't great but they at least have guns


If your claim is merely that they don't work, regardless of the opponent, then I have to disagree.

In fact, I have personally experienced termagants sitting on objectives, tarpitting my sternguard and providing cover saves to MCs.

So...no. You're just wrong.

As usual, all the things you describe rely on the fact that you are bad at the game and don't know how to deal with such mediocre tactics
   
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Arson Fire wrote:
They're between conscripts and guardsmen in point cost and ability.

Sure, they also become fearless when in synapse range, but so do those conscripts when you throw in a cheap priest (zealot really, which is fearless + a close combat buff. Even better).


Synapse units don't actually have to join the units that they're providing synapse.

One priest = 1 fearless unit.
One chaplain = 1 fearless unit.

1 swarmlord = as many units as you can fit within however many inches. Even more if you successfully cast prime.

They lack the ability those IoM units have to get buffs by attaching independent characters. The only one they can get is the tyranid prime, which is a staggering 125 point + upgrades HQ unit, and doesn't actually do anything for the gaunts aside from provide synapse.


"A staggering 125 points + upgrades"? Bullgak. Do tell me which HQ you have in mind, and I will explain to you, in detail, why 125 points + upgrades is not staggering in the least.

Seriously. Would you rather a chaplain? You take chaplains, and we'll take hive tyrants. Deal?

They also lack the ability to ride around in transports.


Yes. That's part and parcel of playing tyranids. Every army should have its benefits and drawbacks.

Unless you're playing Eldar, in which case, you still should, but you don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CrownAxe wrote:As usual, all the things you describe rely on the fact that you are bad at the game and don't know how to deal with such mediocre tactics


Gee. That's real constructive. Truly opinion changing.

Your base insult truly does wonders to convince me that I am in error.

#Sarcasm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arson Fire wrote:
They're between conscripts and guardsmen in point cost and ability.


In other words: right at about 4 ppm.

Which is what they cost.

So stop complaining.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 06:30:39


 
   
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Liche Priest Hierophant







 Traditio wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
They're between conscripts and guardsmen in point cost and ability.

Sure, they also become fearless when in synapse range, but so do those conscripts when you throw in a cheap priest (zealot really, which is fearless + a close combat buff. Even better).


Synapse units don't actually have to join the units that they're providing synapse.

One priest = 1 fearless unit.
One chaplain = 1 fearless unit.

1 swarmlord = as many units as you can fit within however many inches. Even more if you successfully cast prime.


1 Librarian with the right psychic power also = as many unit you can fit in within so many inches. Plus they get Adamantium Will.

They lack the ability those IoM units have to get buffs by attaching independent characters. The only one they can get is the tyranid prime, which is a staggering 125 point + upgrades HQ unit, and doesn't actually do anything for the gaunts aside from provide synapse.


"A staggering 125 points + upgrades"? Bullgak. Do tell me which HQ you have in mind, and I will explain to you, in detail, why 125 points + upgrades is not staggering in the least.

Seriously. Would you rather a chaplain? You take chaplains, and we'll take hive tyrants. Deal?


He already said which HQ he's talking about: the Tyranid Prime.

You probably haven't heard of it because it is terrible. Its profile is pretty much that of a Tyranid Warrior.

They also lack the ability to ride around in transports.


Yes. That's part and parcel of playing tyranids. Every army should have its benefits and drawbacks.

Unless you're playing Eldar, in which case, you still should, but you don't.


So the tyranids need more drawbacks than your precious space marines?

Do tell me, what drawbacks do you get, besides not being able to have more than a single heavy/specialist weapons (things gants and gaunts don't have)?



It's also a bit rich to tell someone to stop complaining when most of your threads seem to be about complaints you have with minor aspects of the game (like not being able to kill a Hive Tyrant in one hit with a single Flak missile...)
   
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Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

Gaunts/Gants being cheap is not really an advantage when you have compatible (and even better) units for a similar cost that don't have such a massive drawback. Which as Arson Fire points out, have access to fearless via independent characters. As a Ork player I don't fear Hormagaunts, for 1 point more I'm basically superior in every way

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
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Traditio, the HQ he mentions is the Tyranid Prime. Look it up.

But to everyone else, Traditios opinions like always, are to be ignored. He doesn't know what he is talking about and while I read every word of his posts I take his ideas with a grain of salt at this point.

Some good ideas bouncing around.

The idea I had for synapse for a long time now was similar to a suggestion above.

I figured Synapase should work like this.

Synapse Creature: A model with this special rule has a Synapse range of 12”. Friendly Tyranid models within synapse range, including the synapse creature, gain the special rules Driven By The Hive Mind and Feel No Pain (6+).

The Synapse creature itself should maybe gain EW or maybe a low Invulnerable save. Something else to toughen them up a bit.

Driven By The Hive Mind: A unit that contains a model with this special rule uses the unmodified leadership value of the nearest Synapse Creature for all rules purposes.

Basically Stubborn synapse creature leadership (10).

If we remove IB whole sale and keep the little monsters at Ld 6 so they just probably fail all their checks left and right, does this seem fair while keeping the tyranids able to function?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Traditio wrote:

Gee. That's real constructive. Truly opinion changing.

Your base insult truly does wonders to convince me that I am in error.

#Sarcasm.

No need to waste my time trying to change your incorrect opinion about the fact that termagants are bad

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 06:55:00


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






The problem ISNT IB, but Synapse being so unreliable.

The opponents just kill synapse and watch everything die, there are times the other player literally can just ignore 20-30% the army to just focus down synapse and watch you struggle.

The problem is the Nids codex in general, with to weak synapse and over costed models + Upgrades AND slow movement with lack of survivability.

A good friend said it best,
"Nids are like a Huge Buss, it takes alot of wheel to turn and its very cumbersome"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 07:57:15


   
 
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