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 oldzoggy wrote:
50% of space wolves is wolves the other 50% is space

Yeah but space lord (mother, mother), leading space guard, wearing space cloaks and bearing space fetishes, ruling over the world of spatial from his fortress known as 'The Room' while riding his thunderspace and awaiting 'The Space Time' for the return of his primarch just isn't quite as catchy, no?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This thread reminds me of how much I hate Space Wolves.

In third edition, I used to admire them from a distance. I loved, too how the "career path" of the marine was completely different (scouts were older, blood claws already in power armour but inexperienced). With the 5th edition codex, I really started to loathe them.

I have to say that the BloodBloodBloodBloodBloodBlood Angels of Bloody Blood have a saving grace: they remained tragic, and hence more interesting.

Current wolf writing plus the horus heresy fluff made the wolves into a weird conglomerate of Gary-Stues and hypocrites.

 Jayden63 wrote:
You think this is bad. Go through the 5th ed. Blood Angles codex and count the Blood refrences.

Matt Ward renamed the dreadnaught close combat weapon the Blood Fist. Didn't change a single rule or stat. At least the Wolf Claw got a stat change over the Lightning claw, thus a new name was probably needed.

And dispite the bad over use of the Wolf monicure in unit naming, we have the Iron Priest, which IMO is a much cooler name than Techmarine, which is just well... marine with Tech thrown in front.

See that's just a hint of the potential there is with them. They could basically draw on the whole culture of northern europe throughout the middle ages and before if they wanted to, rather than just put 'wolf' in front of everything.

Oh dear, I didn't realise the Blood Angels had the same treatment...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
50% of space wolves is wolves the other 50% is space

Yeah but space lord (mother, mother), leading space guard, wearing space cloaks and bearing space fetishes, ruling over the world of spatial from his fortress known as 'The Room' while riding his thunderspace and awaiting 'The Space Time' for the return of his primarch just isn't quite as catchy, no?

If I could find where the exalt button was this would get one...

It actually sounds quite catchy.

fluff that could have been wrote:
I left my throne a million miles away
I drink from your tit
I sing your blues every day
Now give me the strength
To split the world in two yeah
I ate all the rest and now I've gotta eat you

Automatically Appended Next Post:
These world splitting totally not slaaneshy loyalist space barbarians sound fun to me.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This thread reminds me of how much I hate Space Wolves.

In third edition, I used to admire them from a distance. I loved, too how the "career path" of the marine was completely different (scouts were older, blood claws already in power armour but inexperienced). With the 5th edition codex, I really started to loathe them.

I have to say that the BloodBloodBloodBloodBloodBlood Angels of Bloody Blood have a saving grace: they remained tragic, and hence more interesting.

Current wolf writing plus the horus heresy fluff made the wolves into a weird conglomerate of Gary-Stues and hypocrites.

The Gary Stue factor is what bothers me the most, that and the stupid amount of hand waving required to keep the inquisition from making them extinct. The dark angels are all like "Oh no, I hope no one finds out there were traitors in our legion 10,000 years ago", hint everyone had traitors in their legion 10,000 years ago. The space wolves on the other hand are all like "What, we maintain a full legion, we have mutants, psykers, heretics, and our geneseed is wildly unstable, what's the inquisition going to do about it, suck our big fatties that's what, cause we have plot armor". It's not like they tip toe around the inquisition either, with interactions ranging from flipping them the bird to outright shooting them. It's hard to take the dark angels fluff seriously when you look at what the space wolves have gotten away with.

The thing that I hate about the wolf so much is that there are so many occasions where it could be non wolf so easily.

Aye, it's OTT. But Leman Russ is still 100x better than Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands.

I dislike the 'wolf' factor, but personally I like space wolves, that's why I constantly fanboy about them day and night.

I just wish the wolf theme wasn't so intense...

They have more wolves than a pack of wolves.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This thread reminds me of how much I hate Space Wolves.

In third edition, I used to admire them from a distance. I loved, too how the "career path" of the marine was completely different (scouts were older, blood claws already in power armour but inexperienced). With the 5th edition codex, I really started to loathe them.

I have to say that the BloodBloodBloodBloodBloodBlood Angels of Bloody Blood have a saving grace: they remained tragic, and hence more interesting.

Current wolf writing plus the horus heresy fluff made the wolves into a weird conglomerate of Gary-Stues and hypocrites.

The Gary Stue factor is what bothers me the most, that and the stupid amount of hand waving required to keep the inquisition from making them extinct. The dark angels are all like "Oh no, I hope no one finds out there were traitors in our legion 10,000 years ago", hint everyone had traitors in their legion 10,000 years ago. The space wolves on the other hand are all like "What, we maintain a full legion, we have mutants, psykers, heretics, and our geneseed is wildly unstable, what's the inquisition going to do about it, suck our big fatties that's what, cause we have plot armor". It's not like they tip toe around the inquisition either, with interactions ranging from flipping them the bird to outright shooting them. It's hard to take the dark angels fluff seriously when you look at what the space wolves have gotten away with.

This. THIS. They make look other chapters in the same universe like drama queens (Blood Angels: "come on, geneseed defects are not bad actually are an advantage!") or too paranoid (Dark Angels: "come on, the inquisition is actually deaf, blind and dumb, no worries").
Not only SW are insufferable, they make other chapters look bad.
It damages suspension of disbelief. And let's not start to talk about the psykers.

13.5%

The reason why the SW never get disciplined by the Inquistion or other such entities is because those slights don't happen nearly as often as many believe. Every hundred years or so the SW do something against the higher ups. And that might seem like a lot until you remember that they have been tirelessly fighting and dying for the IOM for over ten thousand years. You just don't throw that away. Heck, even when those slights happen it's usually only one of the main wolf lords doing and the other eleven are out kicking zenos/heretic ass as it happens.

The books/records timeline only focus on those events because they are interesting and noteworthy. The codex would be huge if every little battle was recorded of just your everyday none to exciting ass kicking events.

The space wolves maintain a legion, thats a huge no no, several chapters have face exterminatus for far less than the wolves get away with on a daily basis. For instance the grey slayers had mutants far less egregious than the wulfen and got purged. The flesh tearers are under investigation from the inquisition for the same. The flame falcons got purged for having some of their chapter spontaneously combust during a battle and emerge unharmed. It goes on and on, to the inquisition the space marines are a very dangerous resource that has to be managed with vigilance lest more of them join chaos's ranks.

Into that galaxy wide system of vigilance and purges swagger in the space wolves, who give absolutely zero figs about complying with the imperiums demands.

Calling them a Legion is a bit extreme. They'd make the most disappointing Legion ever with a total of about 1500 Marines when you work it out. The Wulfen thing is being overplayed a bit as well seeing as they don't happen very much in places where other people see with the exception of the new Fenris stuff but that has some Wolf Lords going for getting rid of the Wulfen.

Well what about the Black Dragons?

Forgive me if this is stupid, as I tend too often to be, however,

The Inquisition does keep their eyes on the space wolves, greatly so, its not like the inquisition ignores them, moreso that the inquisition keeps eyes on them at all times.

I think some of it might involve that the space wolves *haven't* fallen to chaos yet. Maybe the inquisition decides to leave sleeping wolves lie because it would take too many resources to destroy them, and the Imperium is stretched too thin to waste resources on a large, well defended chapter of loyal marines, albeit savage marines.

That is my $0.02

~Mikey

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Well what about the Black Dragons?

Forgive me if this is stupid, as I tend too often to be, however,

The Inquisition does keep their eyes on the space wolves, greatly so, its not like the inquisition ignores them, moreso that the inquisition keeps eyes on them at all times.

I think some of it might involve that the space wolves *haven't* fallen to chaos yet. Maybe the inquisition decides to leave sleeping wolves lie because it would take too many resources to destroy them, and the Imperium is stretched too thin to waste resources on a large, well defended chapter of loyal marines, albeit savage marines.

That is my $0.02

~Mikey

Thats just it thou, giving the Higher Up the middle finger every now and then is not the same as falling to Chaos. Nothing close. Those Mutants that everyone is worried about, what do they do? ... ohh, just go deep into the warp and bring the fight against Chaos onto their door step. Sadly things might have changed when the Wolfin unit was released and its associated fluff, but up until that time, (well 3rd edition to present) full on Wolfin were never a thing in standard SW armies. There was a story where the IG were being overrun by chaos where the 13 Co. came out of the warp, slaughtered the heritics then went back into the warp where they came from, but that was pretty much it. As far as most people know, there is no such thing as full on wolfin.

And again, its not like they are purposely going out to pick a fight with the other IOM factions every second tuesday. These things happen once every hundred years or so, far too infrequent when weighed against the everyday fight that the SW ingage in against the runious powers that threaten the very existance of the IOM.

 Jayden63 wrote:
And that might seem like a lot until you remember that they have been tirelessly fighting and dying for the IOM for over ten thousand years. You just don't throw that away.

The Imperium does exactly that all the time...that's like a defining feature of the 40k universe's dystopia.

In some cases because it's necessary, in some cases even if it's counterproductive just because the system has too much inertia not too, sometimes just because someone in the right place has a vendetta to push and the power to do it.

And lets not forget that every rulebook opens with this line in the intro "The universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

The books/records timeline only focus on those events because they are interesting and noteworthy. The codex would be huge if every little battle was recorded of just your everyday none to exciting ass kicking events.

Yeah, the problem is that nobody else comes off in the same way. It just makes the whole faction come off as arrogant and pretentious reveling knowingly within the comfort of its plot armor.

It's not just the wolves though that'd rebel against the inquisition it's the entire sub sector who the wolves have kept safe for 10,000 years and unlike other chapters they don't look down on mortals.

Hell there's a craft world in their back yard they've held a peace with since the heresy.

The wolves have a bigger force of arms than just the 12 great armies in the fang.

So we can add fermenting a rebellion and consorting with Xenos to the long list of stuff they get away with.

hobojebus wrote:
It's not just the wolves though that'd rebel against the inquisition it's the entire sub sector who the wolves have kept safe for 10,000 years and unlike other chapters they don't look down on mortals.

Hell there's a craft world in their back yard they've held a peace with since the heresy.

The wolves have a bigger force of arms than just the 12 great armies in the fang.

What Craftworld is in there back yard? I'm pretty sure the Imperium ignores Craftworlds for the most part anyway seeing as they're not really worth the losses involved in taking them.

hobojebus wrote:
It's not just the wolves though that'd rebel against the inquisition it's the entire sub sector who the wolves have kept safe for 10,000 years and unlike other chapters they don't look down on mortals.

We have no idea if that would be true or not, the Wolves do not directly command those places, an they have their own commanders and governors and agendas, and are likely to be much more pliant to the desires of the Inquisition, and, ultimately, even if they did drag the rest of the subsector in, that's still a comparatively negligible amount of military might for the Imperium to overcome. A subsector is nothing at the levels the Inquisition can operate at. They write much larger than that off as simply morning losses against something like the Tyranids.

Hell there's a craft world in their back yard they've held a peace with since the heresy.

So you're telling me that the Inquisition would find them wanting in their zeal and their Emperor given duty of slaying the heretic and the xenos?

The wolves have a bigger force of arms than just the 12 great armies in the fang.

The "12 great armies of the fang" being a couple hundred marines each with maybe a few hundred serfs. Lets not forget that the Wolves themselves aren't exactly the largest force in the galaxy either, and whatever else they could muster from a subsector wouldn't be a match for the Inquisition that can call upon literally billions of entire regiments of the Imperial Guard or call in a full sector battlefleet (equipped for fleet to fleet combat as opposed to SM vessels which are designed for space raiding and planetary assault) that would outnumber the Wolves by 3-1 or more with millions more such sector battlefleets they could requisition?

The Space Wolves come from Fenris, a planet named after a wolf from Norse mythology), and are led by the Great Wolf who oversees the Wolf Lords that command Great Companies with the help of Wolf Guard Battle Leaders, Wolf Guards, and Wolf Priests (who wear a Wolf Medallion instead of a rosarius). Iron Priests tend to the cyberwolves while Rune Priests fire flaming wolf energy at their enemies. Wolf Scouts drop into the field from Stormwolf gunships to recon ahead of the main Wolfpack, with Fenrisian Wolves running ahead of their Wolf brothers to wolf down foes. The wolf factors is cranked up to eleven in the Great Company of Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf, a.k.a Lord of the Wolfkin, who rides into battle on a wolf with wolves surrounding him and his main man Canis Wolfborn, the Wolf Knight, slicing foes apart with his dual-wield Wolf Claws. There are also Wulfen, who are basically werewolves.

On the evidence of that I'd say they're probably about 80% "wolf".

 Grimgold wrote:
So we can add fermenting a rebellion

Foment is for stirring up people. You foment a rebellion.

Ferment is to turn them into alcohol. So unless they are making soylent beer, the other spelling is the one to be used.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
This thread reminds me of how much I hate Space Wolves.

Exalted.

love my Space Puppies
the "Wolf" bit doesn't bother me at all, nor do the Blood Angels' "Blood" theme or the Khorne "Skull" theme...
it's not my creation, so i'm not gonna sweat it...
as long as i keep getting fiction i like to read, art i like to look at, and beautiful minis to paint, i'm good...

the new Space Wolves mini in the Prospero box is so well sculpted, his name could be Wolfy McWolferson Wolf III, and i wouldn't care...
he's still a badass mini

cheers
jah

There's far less blood in the BA book than wolfiness in C:SW.

pm713 wrote:Calling them a Legion is a bit extreme. They'd make the most disappointing Legion ever with a total of about 1500 Marines when you work it out. The Wulfen thing is being overplayed a bit as well seeing as they don't happen very much in places where other people see with the exception of the new Fenris stuff but that has some Wolf Lords going for getting rid of the Wulfen.

I liked it better when the Wulfen was actually a CURSE, something to be hidden away, a mutation that you DON'T want the rest of the universe to find out about, not the silliness we have now "Oi, Sir, Fred has just turned in to a slavering werewolf, what should we do?" "SWEET! That's wonderful news! Put him on the front line".

Part of the reason Space Wolves are disliked these days is because they've gone from a slightly Wolf themed Viking Space Marine force to absurd self parody. So not only do you have the non-SW fans moaning, you also have old SW fans who dislike the direction GW took with them.

jah-joshua wrote:the new Space Wolves mini in the Prospero box is so well sculpted, his name could be Wolfy McWolferson Wolf III, and i wouldn't care...
he's still a badass mini

Well 30k Wolves are at least a bit more subdued thanks to FW taking a grittier approach to Space Wolves rather than the cartoonish one GW took with the 40k ones.

 Ratius wrote:
Picking on the Wolves is a bit unfair though, GWs naming conventions have always been whacky at times.
War walker - it walks to war?
Mega Nobz hurhur
Genestealers - oh they steal genes?
Dunecrawler - really?

We could go on.....

Warwalker.... it's a combat-oriented walker-class vehicle.

Mega Nobz are really big Ork Nobz so... the name fits.

Yes, Genestealers steal genes. That's how Tyranid Cults get started to draw the attention of the Hive Fleet to a world of viable biomass.

The Dunecrawler is named after a historic beast-of-burden that existed on Old Terra: "The Onager Dunecrawler is based on the Mars Universal Land Engine; itself inspired by the bad-tempered beasts of burden that transported their masters across Holy Terra in ancient times." Given that it is based on a machine called a MULE, it is likely a reference to a donkey or possibly a camel.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

pm713 wrote:Calling them a Legion is a bit extreme. They'd make the most disappointing Legion ever with a total of about 1500 Marines when you work it out. The Wulfen thing is being overplayed a bit as well seeing as they don't happen very much in places where other people see with the exception of the new Fenris stuff but that has some Wolf Lords going for getting rid of the Wulfen.

I liked it better when the Wulfen was actually a CURSE, something to be hidden away, a mutation that you DON'T want the rest of the universe to find out about, not the silliness we have now "Oi, Sir, Fred has just turned in to a slavering werewolf, what should we do?" "SWEET! That's wonderful news! Put him on the front line".

Part of the reason Space Wolves are disliked these days is because they've gone from a slightly Wolf themed Viking Space Marine force to absurd self parody. So not only do you have the non-SW fans moaning, you also have old SW fans who dislike the direction GW took with them.

jah-joshua wrote:the new Space Wolves mini in the Prospero box is so well sculpted, his name could be Wolfy McWolferson Wolf III, and i wouldn't care...
he's still a badass mini

Well 30k Wolves are at least a bit more subdued thanks to FW taking a grittier approach to Space Wolves rather than the cartoonish one GW took with the 40k ones.

the Fell-Hand is a GW studio 30K miniature, sculpted with all of the design conventions of the 40K line, and i think that is a good thing...
nothing subdued about him

you say "cartoonish" like it is a bad thing...
personally, i like my minis to look like they stepped out of a G.I. Joe cartoon or comic book...
they were my favorite thing as a kid...
maybe it is just because i never grew up, and lost the magic of a child's imagination, but i like the Saturday morning cartoon, over-the-top aspect of 40K...
if i wanted realism, i would collect military scale models, rather than 40K models...

having started on Space Wolves with the release of the original plastic Beakie box, on to the metals of the 90's, through the upgrade sprue of the 2000's, on to our current range, i've enjoyed the evolution...
i like the Thunderwolves, the current Termies, the basic kit, new Ulric and Iron Priest, the Fenrisian Wolves, and new Bjorn...
i'm not fussed about the flying skip, the Karate Kid Wulfen, or Logan Claus...
they certainly don't put me off...

same goes with the "Wolf" naming convention...
things like Wolf Priest, Wolf Claw, Thunderwolf, and Wolf Guard all make sense...
i think Murderfang is actually a pretty cool name for a warrior, even if him being from the planet Omnicide is silly
he is a great model, too...
he just needs a helmet swap instead of the head...

it's a good time to be a Wolfy Wolf Wolf

cheers
jah

I was talking less about the model style and more about the overall conceptual design and fluff, I should have said "black library" rather than "forge world" I guess.

Also Geigor is pretty subdued compared to Logan Claus, Murderface, Thunderwolf Cavalry and the giant flying dog's heads. He does wear quite a bit of gubbinz, but he's a character so I don't mind.

You're welcome to like the cartoonish style, I know from previous threads there's barely anything GW do that you don't like I normally wouldn't care. But realise I liked Space Wolves the way they were previously and it's people like me that hate the direction GW took with them. Things like "Wolfy Wolf Wolf" make me throw up a little bit in my mouth each time I read them.

Hopefully the 30k Wolves stay gritty rather than comical so people who want that style can stay with it.