Marine Commandant Calls for 'Spiritual Fitness' - hilarity ensues?

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**Ahtman**

Link to the Story

Link has some more but:

Earlier this month, Gen. Robert Neller, the commandant of the Marine Corps, issued an all-hands message to encourage his men and women and Navy sailors assigned to their units to take note of their own “spiritual fitness.”

“During this time, I ask each of you to reflect on what you and the Marines and sailors you lead are doing to achieve and maintain an optimal level of strength and resilience. Your leaders and chaplains at all levels stand ready to engage with you in this task,” Neller, a veteran infantry officer entering his second year as the service’s top general officer, wrote in the Oct. 3 message. “By attending to spiritual fitness with the same rigor given to physical, social and mental fitness, Marines and sailors can become and remain the honorable warriors and model citizens our nation expects.”

The general’s mention of honorable warriors and model citizens – most Marines serve four to eight years and then return to civilian life – harkens to a generation ago. In the 1990s — with a military facing force cuts, ethical scandals and retention concerns — then-commandant Gen. Charles Krulak often spoke with Marines about the importance of integrity, having a “moral compass” and courage to do the right thing.

It wasn’t specifically directed at religion or spirituality but took a broad, holistic approach at building better “citizen-soldiers.”

In this generation, will that challenge to look inward at their spirituality, however they define it to be, resonate with Millennial Marines? And, if so, how?

If religious affiliation is any measure of that, military leaders might well be worried.

Last year, the Pew Research Center found that fewer Americans were identifying as religious. In its 2014 Religious Landscape Survey, the Pew Research Center found that 70.6 percent of Americans identified with a Christian-based religion, with “Evangelical Protestant,” “Catholic” and “Mainline Protestant” the top groups. Almost 6 percent claimed non-Christian faiths – Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu, for example.

But almost 23 percent in the survey of 35,000 Americans said they were unaffiliated – known as “nones” – or nonbelievers, and 15.8 percent of them claimed no ties even to agnostics or atheists. That was a significant change from 2007, when 16 percent identified as “nones.”

The biggest group, 35 percent, among “nones” are Millennials, considered those born between 1981 and 1996, and “nones” as a whole “are getting even younger,” Pew found. It’s also an age group — 20 to 35 — that’s well represented within the military services.

So how will today’s Marines receive this latest message?

The Marine Corps hasn’t detailed just what the push for spiritual fitness will entail, but it’s described as part of leadership development and a holistic approach to overall fitness along with physical, mental and social wellness. The service’s deputy chaplain, Navy Capt. William Kennedy, said it wasn’t a program but “an engagement strategy to enable leaders at every level to communicate the importance of faith, values and moral living inside the Marine Corps culture of fitness.”

“Spiritual fitness is for everyone,” Kennedy said in an email response to WATM. “Every Marine has a position on matters of spirituality, belief in a higher being and religion. The individual Marine chooses if and how they will grow in spiritual fitness, enabling them to fulfill their duties successfully while deployed and in garrison.”

Scott said the Navy’s top chaplain Rear Adm. Brent Scott sent a letter to all Marine Corps’ chaplains, challenging them to “engage their commanders and the Marine Corps in conversations on spiritual fitness.”

A non-profit group, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, has criticized the Corps’ plan as an attempt to push religious, if not Christian, values on all Marines.

Mikey Weinstein, the group’s founder and president and a former Air Force lawyer, has threatened to sue the Marine Corps to stop it from mandating spiritual fitness training for every Marine rather than having it be voluntary. Weinstein told Military.com last week that the service’s plan to include spiritual fitness with some training and education courses is “nothing more than a Trojan Horse for fundamentalist Christians to proselytize to a captive audience.”

“If they call this ‘mental fitness,’ that’s great,” Weinstein told WATM. But while Marines are regularly tested in physical fitness and military proficiency, he said, “who gets to decide what Marines are spiritually fit?”

While troops can be required to sit through legal discussions with a judge advocate or medical training with medics, they can’t be required to attend teachings or preaching by unit chaplains, he said, citing separation of church and state. If the Marine Corps sets mandatory lectures, testing or measuring tools or classes that discuss things like faith or “a higher power,” for example, that will push it into religious beliefs and violate the constitutional prohibition against religious tests, Weinstein said.

“If they do it, they’ll be in court,” he said.

In 2010, MRFF threatened to sue the Army when it pushed out a similar assessment program on spiritual fitness for soldiers, and Weinstein said the service eventually revised it.

So is this a dog whistle or something else?

**MrMoustaffa**

I'm surprised this has even come up. With all the fuss that pops up every time government and religion mix, you'd think someone would've told him "hey maybe this isn't a good idea."

I know I would not be happy about being forced to participate in "spiritual training" if I was serving.

**DarkTraveler777**

I don't like this one bit, and hope it gets killed in court.

“If they call this ‘mental fitness,’ that’s great,” Weinstein told WATM. But while Marines are regularly tested in physical fitness and military proficiency, he said, “who gets to decide what Marines are spiritually fit?”

While troops can be required to sit through legal discussions with a judge advocate or medical training with medics, they can’t be required to attend teachings or preaching by unit chaplains, he said, citing separation of church and state. If the Marine Corps sets mandatory lectures, testing or measuring tools or classes that discuss things like faith or “a higher power,” for example, that will push it into religious beliefs and violate the constitutional prohibition against religious tests, Weinstein said.

More power to Mr. Weinstein and his group.

**feeder**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

I know I would not be happy about being forced to participate in "spiritual training" if I was serving.

I'd say I follow the path of Jedi and spend my time watching ESB or practicing for lightsaber duels.

**Ahtman**

feeder wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:

I know I would not be happy about being forced to participate in "spiritual training" if I was serving.

I'd say I follow the path of Jedi and spend my time watching ESB or practicing for lightsaber duels.

I'm sure that would work really well in the Corp.

**Laughing Man**

As a devout Pastafarian, spiritual fitness is clearly determined by getting as many people as possible to worship the noodly appendage (ifyouknowwhatImean).

**feeder**

Ahtman wrote:
feeder wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:

I know I would not be happy about being forced to participate in "spiritual training" if I was serving.

I'd say I follow the path of Jedi and spend my time watching ESB or practicing for lightsaber duels.

I'm sure that would work really well in the Corp.

I'd use my Jedi mind tricks. Simple jarheads wouldn't stand a chance.

**djones520**

Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

Spiritual fitness has nothing to do with religion.

http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR100/RR100/RAND_RR100.pdf

The Air Force defines spiritual fitness as the ability to adhere to beliefs, principles, or
values needed to persevere and prevail in accomplishing missions. As this definition
implies, spiritual fitness does not require any degree of religiosity or belief in the
supernatural. Atheists who hold a secular philosophy of meaning and purpose can be
spiritually fit as well. Spiritual fitness can come in many forms and may include any of
the following: belief in transcendent meaning and purpose, self-transcendence, a sense of
morality, engagement with a community with similar values, altruism, religiosity,
religious or spiritual practices or behaviors, or exceptional experiences, such as visions or
perceived communications with the deceased.

Just a small excerpt of what the military views spiritual fitness as.

As an atheist who serves in the military, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation has pissed me off many times over the years. They just need to learn to shut the hell up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spiritual Fitness is one of our 4 pillars of Fitness.

Physical
Spiritual
Mental
Emotional

These are all a part of our resiliency. We need all four of those to be strong, to deal with the things we deal with.

As an atheist, I need spiritual fitness just as much as someone who follows a religion. I need to believe that what I'm doing is right. I have to have a sense of morals guiding me. I get that from my spiritual fitness.

The Commandants messages is utterly true. Without spiritual resiliency, our force cannot operate to the level that it does, to the level that is necessary.

**Hordini**

djones520 wrote:
Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the article.

I recommend those who are interested read the actual message in its entirety. As far as I can tell there is no formal mandated training and certainly no evaluation or test for deciding who is spiritually fit or not. The actual message, which is shorter than the article, focuses on resiliency, like djones520 talks about. This isn't some kind of weird dog whistle for mandatory religious or Christian training.

**Kojiro**

or exceptional experiences, such as visions or perceived communications with the deceased.

With respect, anyone experiencing visions or the voices of the dead may have spiritual fitness, but their mental fitness would not be in question to me.

**d-usa**

Hordini wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the article.

I recommend those who are interested read the actual message in its entirety. As far as I can tell there is no formal mandated training and certainly no evaluation or test for deciding who is spiritually fit or not. The actual message, which is shorter than the article, focuses on resiliency, like djones520 talks about. This isn't some kind of weird dog whistle for mandatory religious or Christian training.

So in a nutshell this is just a "focus on ethics, think about our mission, vision, core values, make sure you follow them in all your actions, and don't be a dick to people" message?

**djones520**

d-usa wrote:
Hordini wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the article.

I recommend those who are interested read the actual message in its entirety. As far as I can tell there is no formal mandated training and certainly no evaluation or test for deciding who is spiritually fit or not. The actual message, which is shorter than the article, focuses on resiliency, like djones520 talks about. This isn't some kind of weird dog whistle for mandatory religious or Christian training.

So in a nutshell this is just a "focus on ethics, think about our mission, vision, core values, make sure you follow them in all your actions, and don't be a dick to people" message?

For the most part, yes. It has nothing to do with the "constant effort to christianize the military" that this fething organization is always insisting is taking place. Spiritual Fitness has been a part of the military resiliency program since I started serving 15 years ago. There is nothing new about it, and it has nothing to do with forcing religion on anyone.

**d-usa**

djones520 wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Hordini wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the article.

I recommend those who are interested read the actual message in its entirety. As far as I can tell there is no formal mandated training and certainly no evaluation or test for deciding who is spiritually fit or not. The actual message, which is shorter than the article, focuses on resiliency, like djones520 talks about. This isn't some kind of weird dog whistle for mandatory religious or Christian training.

So in a nutshell this is just a "focus on ethics, think about our mission, vision, core values, make sure you follow them in all your actions, and don't be a dick to people" message?

For the most part, yes. It has nothing to do with the "constant effort to christianize the military" that this fething organization is always insisting is taking place. Spiritual Fitness has been a part of the military resiliency program since I started serving 15 years ago. There is nothing new about it, and it has nothing to do with forcing religion on anyone.

Doesn't everyone in the Marine Coprs follow and serve the Green Weenie anyway?

**djones520**

I don't know. Everyone in the Corp is fething crazy, and I just try to steer clear of them.

**dracpanzer**

Myself and all the Marines I served with were regularly forced to attend religious services.

God, Country, Corps and all that.

If you don't like it, don't join. If you join the Marines to go on some SJW crusade, you are doing it wrong.

**Ahtman**

dracpanzer wrote:
Myself and all the Marines I served with were regularly forced to attend religious services.

God, Country, Corps and all that.

If you don't like it, don't join. If you join the Marines to go on some SJW crusade, you are doing it wrong.

So unless one wants to be Christian Crusader they should avoid the Marine Corp? Seems odd.

Anyway this thread came from a military page linking to a military site so those arguing that one needs to be in the military to understand doesn't hold much water. If you want to argue with other soldiers about who is the mostest militariast go for it but don't expect to many to buy into that faulty line of thinking.

**Just Tony**

The Army is the same way, I just had to take fitness survey myself. Athiest and had one of the highest spirituality ratings in my unit.

As an aside, I'm working through my Chaplain to try to get Kolinahr passed as a legitimate religion.

**Hordini**

Ahtman wrote:
dracpanzer wrote:
Myself and all the Marines I served with were regularly forced to attend religious services.

God, Country, Corps and all that.

If you don't like it, don't join. If you join the Marines to go on some SJW crusade, you are doing it wrong.

So unless one wants to be Christian Crusader they should avoid the Marine Corp? Seems odd.

Anyway this thread came from a military page linking to a military site so those arguing that one needs to be in the military to understand doesn't hold much water. If you want to argue with other soldiers about who is the mostest militariast go for it but don't expect to many to buy into that faulty line of thinking.

Who in this thread is arguing that one needs to be in the military to understand this subject?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
Hordini wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Oh for feths sake...

This is what happens when people who have no clue what the feth they're talking about, start making assumptions.

That's exactly what I thought when I saw the article.

I recommend those who are interested read the actual message in its entirety. As far as I can tell there is no formal mandated training and certainly no evaluation or test for deciding who is spiritually fit or not. The actual message, which is shorter than the article, focuses on resiliency, like djones520 talks about. This isn't some kind of weird dog whistle for mandatory religious or Christian training.

So in a nutshell this is just a "focus on ethics, think about our mission, vision, core values, make sure you follow them in all your actions, and don't be a dick to people" message?

Basically yes. And a reminder that chaplains and other leadership should be tuned into the issue for any Marines who are looking for assistance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dracpanzer wrote:
Myself and all the Marines I served with were regularly forced to attend religious services.

God, Country, Corps and all that.

If you don't like it, don't join. If you join the Marines to go on some SJW crusade, you are doing it wrong.

Point blank, your unit should not have been forcing you to attend religious services and if they did, that's pretty messed up. Out of curiosity, did you serve recently or was it awhile ago?

Unless you consider the Marine Corps Birthday Ball a religious service, then of course you'd be required to attend.

**d-usa**

Hordini wrote:

Unless you consider the Marine Corps Birthday Ball a religious service, then of course you'd be required to attend.

Is Chesty Puller's birthday considered a religious holiday?

**sebster**

Glad to hear that spiritual fitness isn't a religious test. Would have been nice to see the thread end with that.

dracpanzer wrote:
Myself and all the Marines I served with were regularly forced to attend religious services.

God, Country, Corps and all that.

If you don't like it, don't join.

Only being able to sign up to defend your country if you're willing to attend religious services is a pretty basic rejection of religious freedom.

If you join the Marines to go on some SJW crusade, you are doing it wrong.

And now we see the concept of not forcing public servants to attend religious seminars defined as a SJW crusade. What utter fething madness is taking over your country?

**Ahtman**

Hordini wrote:
Who in this thread is arguing that one needs to be in the military to understand this subject?

There were two posts complaining that if one weren't in the military they wouldn't really understand. If you want me to name them I will but I don't see what good it would to tbh.

**Co'tor Shas**

sebster wrote:

And now we see the concept of not forcing public servants to attend religious seminars defined as a SJW crusade. What utter fething madness is taking over your country?

Belive me seb, even we don't know at this point.

**malamis**

A pragmatic agnostic can *sort* of see where he's coming from if you work from the standpoint of "religion is a powerful weapon in the hands of America's enemies, and we may need to close the gap". I'd like to think that a soldier who achieved his rank would be able to appreciate that at the strategic level, because the alternative - speaking as a resident of a reluctant ally - is rather distressing.

Another possibility is that he knows something we don't regarding upcoming scheduled atrocities, re: the American election. If D. Trump is elected and starts the Apocalypse of John, it would be in America's best interest to be on the winning side after all

**CptJake**

Just Tony wrote:
The Army is the same way, I just had to take fitness survey myself. Athiest and had one of the highest spirituality ratings in my unit.

As an aside, I'm working through my Chaplain to try to get Kolinahr passed as a legitimate religion.

I have to ask, why, as an atheist, are you working to get anything passed as a legit religion?

Is it just to be an ass hat?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some links which go towards explaining 'spiritual fitness' (part of Comprehensive Soldier and Family Fitness which is part of the Ready and Resilient Campaign ) from an Army perspective:

https://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/healthyliving/bh/Pages/SpiritualHealth.aspx

https://www.army.mil/standto/archive_2013-04-18/

https://www.army.mil/readyandresilient/

**tneva82**

CptJake wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
The Army is the same way, I just had to take fitness survey myself. Athiest and had one of the highest spirituality ratings in my unit.

As an aside, I'm working through my Chaplain to try to get Kolinahr passed as a legitimate religion.

I have to ask, why, as an atheist, are you working to get anything passed as a legit religion?

Maybe he wants religion that doesn't revolve around belief on god as legit religion? Googling up gave this definition for atheist: "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."

So if there's already legit religions without believe in existance of god or gods why not more?

**Just Tony**

"Ass hat"? No, it's because some of the pseudo religions that have been passed and are actually allowable on your dog tags are unbelievably ridiculous, and when I first turned in my slip as an atheist, in came back Christian, no denom. So from that moment on, back in 1992, I've tried to get Kolinahr as my religion.

Being an "ass hat", how would YOU qualify that? I stood on principle and stepped out of the tail end of a convoy brief because the Chaplain led us in prayer. I got blow back from the entire section because of it, basically saying to stand in there and be silent so I didn't disrespect their beliefs. Yet when it came to MY beliefs, sitting there quasi participating in something I didn't want to participate in was the only answer. Who was the "ass hat" there?

**Frazzled**

tneva82 wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
The Army is the same way, I just had to take fitness survey myself. Athiest and had one of the highest spirituality ratings in my unit.

As an aside, I'm working through my Chaplain to try to get Kolinahr passed as a legitimate religion.

I have to ask, why, as an atheist, are you working to get anything passed as a legit religion?

Maybe he wants religion that doesn't revolve around belief on god as legit religion? Googling up gave this definition for atheist: "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."

So if there's already legit religions without believe in existance of god or gods why not more?

Aka being an ass hat.

**Co'tor Shas**

tneva82 wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
The Army is the same way, I just had to take fitness survey myself. Athiest and had one of the highest spirituality ratings in my unit.

As an aside, I'm working through my Chaplain to try to get Kolinahr passed as a legitimate religion.

I have to ask, why, as an atheist, are you working to get anything passed as a legit religion?

Maybe he wants religion that doesn't revolve around belief on god as legit religion? Googling up gave this definition for atheist: "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."

So if there's already legit religions without believe in existance of god or gods why not more?

Yup, like Unitarian Universalism (what I am a part of). It's religion, but without gods, or rules, or anything else people assume you have to have to be a religion. You can have spiritualism without a higher power.

**CptJake**

Just Tony wrote:
"Ass hat"? No, it's because some of the pseudo religions that have been passed and are actually allowable on your dog tags are unbelievably ridiculous, and when I first turned in my slip as an atheist, in came back Christian, no denom. So from that moment on, back in 1992, I've tried to get Kolinahr as my religion.

Being an "ass hat", how would YOU qualify that? I stood on principle and stepped out of the tail end of a convoy brief because the Chaplain led us in prayer. I got blow back from the entire section because of it, basically saying to stand in there and be silent so I didn't disrespect their beliefs. Yet when it came to MY beliefs, sitting there quasi participating in something I didn't want to participate in was the only answer. Who was the "ass hat" there?

Honestly, it sounds like you are intentionally being an ass hat because your feelings got hurt. A legit IG complaint if you felt your beliefs were not being respected (as it sounds like was the case) would be a reasonable reaction. Your crusade as an atheist to get a religion legitimized is not very reasonable. It is the action of a petulant child who wants to abuse the system for giggles and laughs and as balm to his butt hurt.

**sirlynchmob**

CptJake wrote:
Just Tony wrote:
"Ass hat"? No, it's because some of the pseudo religions that have been passed and are actually allowable on your dog tags are unbelievably ridiculous, and when I first turned in my slip as an atheist, in came back Christian, no denom. So from that moment on, back in 1992, I've tried to get Kolinahr as my religion.

Being an "ass hat", how would YOU qualify that? I stood on principle and stepped out of the tail end of a convoy brief because the Chaplain led us in prayer. I got blow back from the entire section because of it, basically saying to stand in there and be silent so I didn't disrespect their beliefs. Yet when it came to MY beliefs, sitting there quasi participating in something I didn't want to participate in was the only answer. Who was the "ass hat" there?

Honestly, it sounds like you are intentionally being an ass hat because your feelings got hurt. A legit IG complaint if you felt your beliefs were not being respected (as it sounds like was the case) would be a reasonable reaction. Your crusade as an atheist to get a religion legitimized is not very reasonable. It is the action of a petulant child who wants to abuse the system for giggles and laughs and as balm to his butt hurt.

why so defensive cpt? you seem so butt hurt over this.

having his religion legitimized is VERY REASONABLE, as he's being judged on his SFI spirituality score.