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has he reached the level of Malcador, Magnus, and the Emprah

No, Emprah crafted an entire webway, and maintained the astronomicon.

Magnus had to make a deal with chaos just to bust into the emperors webway, leading to daemonic invasion and its destruction, but ultimately only a hole.

Malcador was 2nd strongest, prior to Magnus's deal with the Choas, and tried to maintain the human webway and astronomicon, but dissolved to dust with the effort.

Ahriman cannot overcome magnus prior to chaos enhancement, as he is from the gene seed of magnus, and is not elevated to demon prince

 pumaman1 wrote:
No, Emprah crafted an entire webway, and maintained the astronomicon.

Magnus had to make a deal with chaos just to bust into the emperors webway, leading to daemonic invasion and its destruction, but ultimately only a hole.

Malcador was 2nd strongest, prior to Magnus's deal with the Choas, and tried to maintain the human webway and astronomicon, but dissolved to dust with the effort.

Ahriman cannot overcome magnus prior to chaos enhancement, as he is from the gene seed of magnus, and is not elevated to demon prince

was Malcador close to the Emperor's power?

Ahriman is nowhere near the emperor or Magnus, but could probably go toe to toe with Malcador.

Malcador was strong, but we have no real record of his feats to determine a power level. He sat on the throne for long enough for the emperor to kill Horus. A white scars librarian did something similar.. so malcador is probably in line with a powerful librarian. Of Which ahriman was the greatest.

LightKing wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
No, Emprah crafted an entire webway, and maintained the astronomicon.

Magnus had to make a deal with chaos just to bust into the emperors webway, leading to daemonic invasion and its destruction, but ultimately only a hole.

Malcador was 2nd strongest, prior to Magnus's deal with the Choas, and tried to maintain the human webway and astronomicon, but dissolved to dust with the effort.

Ahriman cannot overcome magnus prior to chaos enhancement, as he is from the gene seed of magnus, and is not elevated to demon prince

was Malcador close to the Emperor's power?

He was considered as 2nd most powerful in the imperium. But as the Emperor maintained the astronomicon from great ranges, battle to unify mankind and expand its empire, and built a webway to near completion, maintained a connection with his children, etc. It would be fair to say that he was "closest" (again, arguable) but in that he was a brighter flashlight, and the emperor was the sun.

 pumaman1 wrote:
No, Emprah crafted an entire webway, and maintained the astronomicon.

Magnus had to make a deal with chaos just to bust into the emperors webway, leading to daemonic invasion and its destruction, but ultimately only a hole.

Malcador was 2nd strongest, prior to Magnus's deal with the Choas, and tried to maintain the human webway and astronomicon, but dissolved to dust with the effort.

Ahriman cannot overcome magnus prior to chaos enhancement, as he is from the gene seed of magnus, and is not elevated to demon prince

The Emperor didn't create the webway, he just found a damaged portal under Terra. Magnus was way stronger than Malcador, since he was planned to be put on the Golden Throne instead of the Emperor, the same Throne on which Malcador could only stay for a few hours.

Came here to say that the emperor didn't create the webway, just a mechanism to access/create a gate on Terra to acces the existing webway.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ahriman is nowhere near the emperor or Magnus, but could probably go toe to toe with Malcador.

Malcador was strong, but we have no real record of his feats to determine a power level. He sat on the throne for long enough for the emperor to kill Horus. A white scars librarian did something similar.. so malcador is probably in line with a powerful librarian. Of Which ahriman was the greatest.

Can you provide a source on that White Scars Librarian lore you mentioned? Sounds interesting.

Magnus was going to be designated as the inhabitant of the Throne subsequent to the conquest of the galaxy, the effort of maintaining which burnt Malcador to a crisp after an unspecified but reasonably short time frame (likely to have been a few weeks to months whilst the Emperor was hooked up). He was also the designated heir to the Emperor's psychic power of all his sons, so I'm inclined to rate Magnus above Malcador.

How well Malcador compares to Ahriman is difficult to say. Malcador was strong enough that he could psychically reduce the impact of a blow from Lorgar to virtually nothing, but that's nothing really compared to the repertoire of a normal Alpha plus.

I'm a touch confused about comparing Magnus and Malcador based on the Emperor's intention for Magnus to occupy the Throne before Magnus mucked things up.

While undoubtedly requiring a powerful psyker to control the webway gate, the original plan of the Emperor would not have included the massive damage to the wards protecting it from the warp done by Magnus tattling on Horus, and particularly the need to hold back the hordes of demons clawing at them as they did during the Siege of Terra.

Malcador was tasked with occupying the Throne at the time when it was being constantly tested by the forces of Chaos, pitting himself against a not-insignificant portion of chaos' attention and effort to prevent Terra being flooded, after the warp defenses were shredded and made either useless or far less potent. Magnus was intended to occupy the Throne against the normal predations and pressures involved in maintaining a webway entrance, and would have had the support of all those warp defenses.

Isn't that comparing apples and oranges?

Edit: I still think Magnus is the more potent psyker, second only to the Emperor himself, but the argument seems to downplay Malcador with an unfair comparison, IMO.

Wasn't Malcador responsible for sending Titan into the warp entirely to protect it then to bring it back that one time?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
[

Can you provide a source on that White Scars Librarian lore you mentioned? Sounds interesting.

The Path of Heaven (Novel)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
Wasn't Malcador responsible for sending Titan into the warp entirely to protect it then to bring it back that one time?

Yeah,.. but I doubt he did that all by himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Malcador forged one last enchantment of arcane technology and psychic accumen, greater than any that had come before it, known as the Warp Nexus. Titan vanished completely from its orbit, hidden from Horus in the most unlikely of refuges -- Malcador had anchored it amongst the tides of the Warp. Protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites of Malcador's own devising"
- tbf it's pretty impressive, but Ahriman has done some impressive things to, with less resources.

Magnus was supposed to sit on the throne after the Emperor had secured the webway, ie when it was safe. Malcador crumbed to dust due to the psychic effort of holding back the massive daemonic incursion that was trying to get through, something Magnus would never have had to do. It isn't an accurate comparison. Malcador is far beyond any librarian in terms of ability, but we have no accurate means by which to compare him with Magnus, who he helped create.

 JamesY wrote:
Magnus was supposed to sit on the throne after the Emperor had secured the webway, ie when it was safe. Malcador crumbed to dust due to the psychic effort of holding back the massive daemonic incursion that was trying to get through, something Magnus would never have had to do. It isn't an accurate comparison. Malcador is far beyond any librarian in terms of ability, but we have no accurate means by which to compare him with Magnus, who he helped create.

In terms of raw power, Magnus was able to throw ridiculous amounts of lightning capable of penetrating armoured vehicles, change the local weather patterns, and slay dozens with his warp gaze simultaneously with seemingly little effort. We also saw him rip an Eldar titan bigger than the Phantom class in two immediately after crushing the arm of one using raw psychic power. That did temporarily drain/exhaust him, but that's a pretty large feat, and knowing the Eldar, that Titan would have been psychically protected. He also psychically dissected an Ork titan larger than a Warlord class more easily, so it wasn't exactly stand alone achievement.

That puts him on the alpha plus level without debate, I should think.

We're lacking equivalent examples for Malcador however, most of his achievements (whilst some greater than the above) were undertaken with copious amounts of preparation, which is a different kettle of fish. Ultimately, warp power seems to be something that can be susbtantially augmented with preparation and resource, as shown when Magnus breaks through to his father. So it's difficult to compare, but on the data given, I'm inclined to rate Magnus as more powerful.

Malcador moved an entire moon and hid it in the warp. We haven't seen him in a combat setting to know how he would fare, so again we can't accurately compare them.

We also know that Magnus needed much preparation and support for some of his feats, such as reaching Horus on Davin. They are both psykers of the highest level (Emperor excepted), but there is no way of quantifying who is the stronger.

 JamesY wrote:
Malcador moved an entire moon and hid it in the warp. .

How difficult actually is that though? I mean, it's clearly a large scale psychic operation, but warp rifts to suck in planets can be opened by naff little cults with virtually no power at all, given adequate time and preparation. As it was covered in geller fields and sigils and suchlike, sustaining it there is nothing to do with him. He just opened the rift itself to throw the moon in, which as stated, is not actually that big a deal in the 40K universe, especially if he took his time building up the necessary energies and tools to do it.

I'd say it was more difficult than ripping a titan in two. I haven't read anything in which a cult created a warp rift and destroyed a planet, but surely the power that did that would be the entity they were invoking, i.e. a chaos god or greater daemon, rather than the cult themselves? In which case we are still comparing Malcador with a significant power.

 Ketara wrote:

How difficult actually is that though? I mean, it's clearly a large scale psychic operation, but warp rifts to suck in planets can be opened by naff little cults with virtually no power at all, given adequate time and preparation

When deliberately done wouldn't it require vast sacrifices? I've never heard of a small cult managing such a feat.

Either way Malcador achieved it when time was pressing whilst ensuring it remained safe, stable and returned on schedule.

Any spoilers for the Path of Heaven Librarian thing?

 JamesY wrote:
I'd say it was more difficult than ripping a titan in two. I haven't read anything in which a cult created a warp rift and destroyed a planet, but surely the power that did that would be the entity they were invoking, i.e. a chaos god or greater daemon, rather than the cult themselves? In which case we are still comparing Malcador with a significant power.

In the Ciaphas Cain novels, all it required was a reasonably small number of sacrifices at key locations. In other places where lots of people have died, the warp can seep through regardless (see Salinas in the Ultramarine novels). The Dark Mechanicus manage to drag a planet into the warp using their own rituals, and Aurelia was pulled in practically by natural phenomena.

I'm really not convinced that pulling a planet into the warp is /that great a feat at the end of the day, at least, not on the alpha plus level with sufficient preparation beforehand. Magnus managed to transport his entire planet plus legion into the warp after having been smacked in the face by Russ and having his back broken, it should be remembered. He also managed to do it with no prior preparation, but merely raw psychic power, after having expended copious amounts of it combat, and in the presence of the Sisterhood of Silence.

It is possible Malcador has achieved feats we are not aware of, but Magnus has very clearly matched his greatest accomplishment we are aware of whilst wounded and tired with no prior preparation. So on that basis alone, the position of second best has to go to Magnus.

I have to disagree. Key locations and places where sacrifices have been made before again require power beyond that of just the multiple individuals involved in the act. Malcador moved a Saturnine moon, from Earth, during the siege of terra (albeit early on). We don't have any further information to know how much preparation he had, he could have had a thousand psykers and a month, he might have done it solo with no preparation at all. I'm not saying he's better than Magnus, but until we hear more about him, I'm on the fence about who is the stronger.

I'd still propose though that during the siege of terra, when the Emperor was on the Vengeful Spirit, would have been when the daemonic incursion at the warp rift would have been at it's most determined, with everything thrown at it. That Malcador could hold them all back, hold back everything that the chaos gods throw at him, and leave behind enough power to reanimate the Emperor for long enough to give his final instructions and be interred on the throne, in my opinion, out weighs anything we have seen from Magnus so far.

 Ketara wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I'd say it was more difficult than ripping a titan in two. I haven't read anything in which a cult created a warp rift and destroyed a planet, but surely the power that did that would be the entity they were invoking, i.e. a chaos god or greater daemon, rather than the cult themselves? In which case we are still comparing Malcador with a significant power.

In the Ciaphas Cain novels, all it required was a reasonably small number of sacrifices at key locations. In other places where lots of people have died, the warp can seep through regardless (see Salinas in the Ultramarine novels). The Dark Mechanicus manage to drag a planet into the warp using their own rituals, and Aurelia was pulled in practically by natural phenomena.

I'm really not convinced that pulling a planet into the warp is /that great a feat at the end of the day, at least, not on the alpha plus level with sufficient preparation beforehand. Magnus managed to transport his entire planet plus legion into the warp after having been smacked in the face by Russ and having his back broken, it should be remembered. He also managed to do it with no prior preparation, but merely raw psychic power, after having expended copious amounts of it combat, and in the presence of the Sisterhood of Silence.

It is possible Malcador has achieved feats we are not aware of, but Magnus has very clearly matched his greatest accomplishment we are aware of whilst wounded and tired with no prior preparation. So on that basis alone, the position of second best has to go to Magnus.

Magnus didn't transport Prospero, only him and his men, perhaps the human population too. The wolves were still marching on Prospero after the battle, as would the Death Guard and the White later during the Heresy

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Any spoilers for the Path of Heaven Librarian thing?

Spoilers? With my reputation?

I think Magnus had a stronger raw strength than Malcador, and yet take one thing into consideration. Magnus was a primarach who inherited his fathers psychic strength. He was meant to sit on the throne with all the wards and protections in tack. Malcador replaced what takes at least a third of the big Es concentration as a mere mortal and still had enough left to heal him after the hardest fight of his life. That puts him way above ahriman.

Ahriman travels through time back and forth. The Inquisition are his pawns.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Spoilers? With my reputation?

Spoiler:

ok, so the scars manage to find the emperors test webway portal, complete with golden throne, and a librarian holds it open long enough for the fleet to escape back to terra.

You have a reputation? Cheers for the info. Must've been a big Webway Portal with a relatively simple path.

Though again as others have mentioned the Daemon invasion and broken wards would presumably have made it more difficult for Malcador.

Nae chance that Ahriman is anywhere near any of them.

 JamesY wrote:
Magnus was supposed to sit on the throne after the Emperor had secured the webway, ie when it was safe. Malcador crumbed to dust due to the psychic effort of holding back the massive daemonic incursion that was trying to get through, something Magnus would never have had to do. It isn't an accurate comparison. Malcador is far beyond any librarian in terms of ability, but we have no accurate means by which to compare him with Magnus, who he helped create.

But Malcador is still just a human while Magnus is primarch. Something far beyond normal human. And every primarch had some trait from Emperor and in Magnus case that's the psychic abilities.

While not absolute proof short of GW stating otherwise I'm on camp that Magnus is stronger. Lot stronger.

But Malcador might be the Emperor, so...

 JNAProductions wrote:
But Malcador might be the Emperor, so...

I'm pretty sure the chances of Malcador being the Emperor after he turned to dust while occupying the Golden Throne to give the Emperor one final bought of life force to give his final orders, in the final hours of the Horus Heresy, are firmly at zero

 General Annoyance wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
But Malcador might be the Emperor, so...

I'm pretty sure the chances of Malcador being the Emperor after he turned to dust while occupying the Golden Throne to give the Emperor one final bought of life force to give his final orders, in the final hours of the Horus Heresy, are firmly at zero

I've heard some reasonably convincing theories that Malcador is the Emperor, and the "Emperor" is just a figurehead made by him.

It's my headcanon, because it's cool. But I definitely agree-there's no solid proof, and there's probably holes in it.