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I've been enjoying very much the audiobooks of the Horus Heresy series, and one thing keeps coming back:

In all audio books, Salamanders are portrayed with what can only be described as a generic sub-saharan African accent.
And yet, as I understand from the lore, Salamanders who were originally African-looking, were retconned to be jet black, and not have anything to do with anything remotely dark brown that could be interpreted as being African, because reasons...

So, if they are not African, why make them talk like Africans?

I know I am nitpicking, but I just wanted to vent a bit before I dive back into the "Damnation of Pythos"...

Thoughts??

 ChaosDad wrote:
I've been enjoying very much the audiobooks of the Horus Heresy series, and one thing keeps coming back:

In all audio books, Salamanders are portrayed with what can only be described as a generic sub-saharan African accent.
And yet, as I understand from the lore, Salamanders who were originally African-looking, were retconned to be jet black, and not have anything to do with anything remotely dark brown that could be interpreted as being African, because reasons...

So, if they are not African, why make them talk like Africans?

I know I am nitpicking, but I just wanted to vent a bit before I dive back into the "Damnation of Pythos"...

Thoughts??

gakky writing? Inconsistent lore?

feth, if Hermione can turn from white to black under the same author, why crack down on multiple authors having different interpretations?

It's not even inconsistency, in all of the audiobooks that I listened to, salamanders always sound african, so it's not a matter of the authors, but of the art direction of the audiobooks...

But that means that someone, somewhere, is either unknowingly saying: "these guys look black, let's make them sound black", or knowingly and with some sense of spite, is saying: "feth your ret-conning, salamanders were awesome when they were african, and they will bloddy-well stay that way on my watch..."...

somehow I prefer the second option...

 ChaosDad wrote:
It's not even inconsistency, in all of the audiobooks that I listened to, salamanders always sound african, so it's not a matter of the authors, but of the art direction of the audiobooks...

But that means that someone, somewhere, is either unknowingly saying: "these guys look black, let's make them sound black", or knowingly and with some sense of spite, is saying: "feth your ret-conning, salamanders were awesome when they were african, and they will bloddy-well stay that way on my watch..."...

somehow I prefer the second option...

Unless someone on the forum knows someone at GW responsible for such, we're left to our own imagination. A quote memorable enough to paraphrase goes about like, "Never ascribe to evil what can be explained by stupidity." We're going to be more accurate and better-off assuming in such situations that the person responsible just didn't think it would be offensive.

You are absolutely right, of course, all we can do is speculate...

 EmpNortonII wrote:
We're going to be more accurate and better-off assuming in such situations that the person responsible just didn't think it would be offensive.

Is it?

What I can't quite put my finger on is what exactly is the part that is offensive... I'm missing some sensibility, here, but the part that is rubbing me the wrong way is the original ret-con of salamanders from Dark skinned of African descent to jet black...

Since the Emperor (at least in one of the versions of the lore...) is born of the sacrifice of a group of ancient shamans, it would make sense that at least some of them were Africans, and so a part of the emperor is from that source. When he made the primarchs, which many consider to be aspects of himself, then it does make sense that there would be some diversity there, no?

I'm probably over-thinking this and beating any number of dead horses, here...

Sub-Saharan? I always thought BL audiobook Salamanders sounded like an Englishman impersonating a Jamaican?

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
We're going to be more accurate and better-off assuming in such situations that the person responsible just didn't think it would be offensive.

Is it?

Beats me. I don't do audiobooks.

Well let's consider that the current evolutionary believe is that for 3/4 of the time humans have currently existed on Earth, we were all "black". It is only in the last 4th of our existence (from the ice age onwards) that lighter skin tones and lighter colored eyes evolved.
It is believed that these traits evolved to allow people to process vitamin D with the lower levels of sun light due to ice age cloud cover

Considering this developed over the last 10k-20K years here on Earth, it is not unreasonable to believe that different traits could have evolved in the same amount of time that has passed to get to 40K (or even 30k during the Heresy era). Ratlings and Ogryn being prime examples, but the inhabitants of Noctune could have evolved jet-black skin to protect them from the volcanic environment. Hence Salamanders can be "black" without being "African"

As for the audio books, remember that we, the audience, still live in the 21st century (2K) and still have our own culturally supported ideas about what a group of people might sound like, even before we hear them speak.
You listen to "Never gonna give you up" by Rick Astley and tell me what race comes to mind by the sound of his voice. Certainly not a pasty white guy,.

-

 ChaosDad wrote:
And yet, as I understand from the lore, Salamanders who were originally African-looking, were retconned to be jet black, and not have anything to do with anything remotely dark brown that could be interpreted as being African, because reasons...

I've never seen any actual evidence for this being the case so I'd be cautious about assuming if you only know of it because of what people say.

I'd suggest it's a way of differentiating different Legions. Otherwise they could easily sound very similar.

 ChaosDad wrote:
...the part that is rubbing me the wrong way is the original ret-con of salamanders from Dark skinned of African descent to jet black...

The Salamanders were jet black before they were retconned into more realistically dark skinned (still with some Caucasians) in Codex: Armageddon. The current jet black depiction is actually closer to the original.

True though I think the change to being ethnically dark skinned/African was a change for the better in showing the diversity of humanity across the galaxy. That and having Caucasian featured Marines with coal black skin seems a bit like blackface.

Well, after doing a big more research, color me corrected about the whole ret-conned situation...

Still don't get why they sound african in the audiobooks, but hey, I'll have at least learnt something today...

I've heard any of the audio books, but I would be interested to hear what a White Scars sounds like. It there is any hint of "Asian" then I suspect they is some profiling going on at GW.

Well, the white scars speak the language of their own planet, Chogoris, and they do speak with an accent when they are portrayed as trying to speak Gothic... The accent is not offensively stereotypical of asian depictions in western media (think that horrible Mickey Rooney bit...). Before I got started listening to "Scars" I was bracing for the worst, after that strange bit with the african-sounding salamanders... But it wasn't that bad, and was actually introduced relatively well, considering that the Scars keep to themselves, and are not usually very fluent in Gothic...

Iracundus wrote:
True though I think the change to being ethnically dark skinned/African was a change for the better in showing the diversity of humanity across the galaxy. That and having Caucasian featured Marines with coal black skin seems a bit like blackface.

Diversity? In a an entire galaxy where everyone is white there is one single Chapter of Space Marines who for inexplicable reasons all look like African-Americans? That is diversity to you?
I think it is ridiculous, and that they should keep the Salamanders jet-black because that actually makes sense in the fluff.

I'd also like them to do more actual diversity. That does not mean throwing in some planet-of-the-hats style worlds where everyone is a minority, but rather depicting planetary populations in a realistic way where you have people of multiple ethnicities on the same world. And even better would it be if those ethnicities are not just ridiculous caracitures of real-world cultures (White Scars, Tallarns, Valhallans, I am looking at you...) but rather something more original.

Well, all Salamanders are recruited from Nocturne, right? (I think that's how you spell it)

Is it possible that the people of that planet have dark skinned/are based off of sub Saharan African culture?

The Salamanders are very closely linked to their home world. They live among the people.

Not that that excuses GW from any sort of profiling. Just a thought.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
True though I think the change to being ethnically dark skinned/African was a change for the better in showing the diversity of humanity across the galaxy. That and having Caucasian featured Marines with coal black skin seems a bit like blackface.

Diversity? In a an entire galaxy where everyone is white there is one single Chapter of Space Marines who for inexplicable reasons all look like African-Americans? That is diversity to you?
I think it is ridiculous, and that they should keep the Salamanders jet-black because that actually makes sense in the fluff.

I'd also like them to do more actual diversity. That does not mean throwing in some planet-of-the-hats style worlds where everyone is a minority, but rather depicting planetary populations in a realistic way where you have people of multiple ethnicities on the same world. And even better would it be if those ethnicities are not just ridiculous caracitures of real-world cultures (White Scars, Tallarns, Valhallans, I am looking at you...) but rather something more original.

That was my first thought, honestly. Like...it seemed a bit silly to only have one chapter with black recruits. There's no reason that the Dark Angels or Black Templars wouldn't have a recruit with black skin if they happened to recruit from a world with people with those features.

People seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote. I am saying that any diversity is a plus because GW's depictions almost universally depict a Caucasian featured galaxy. Even depictions like the Tallarns or White Scars, when shown, are really just Caucasians in costume and make up. Be that as it may, even that was arguably better than no mention at all or removing existing stuff like the vanishing of the Native American bits from the Dark Angels, though again one might argue that those were caricatures of Native Americans. By turning the Salamanders back into a non-natural coal black skin color, GW is reducing what little diversity there is in the 40K universe.

It is entirely possible to have an entire planetary population be of certain features if they were founded originally by a limited population (the bottleneck effect). Also if such features prove conducive to survival, they may be selected for. Dark skin would be an advantage on a world that has a large bright sun exposing everyone to more radiation. People living in the depths of a hive world might very well be pasty white in the same way that cave fish or other cave organisms become white or even translucent.
A Chapter recruiting from a world with limited genetic pool would get recruits with similar features. This would not be that rare given that many Chapters recruit from low population planets with low tech feral or tribal societies with limited population/genetic mixing.

The issue is similar to GW's portrayal (or lack thereof) of women. They either appear in very stereotyped niches like SoB, or are virtually absent. Imperial Guard regiments, despite supposedly being able to settle a world by right of conquest (and thus needing to have a decent gender balance for reproduction), are depicted in artwork as universally male. Yes, there are some female characters in novels, but any visual depictions of 40K material are virtually universally male except again for those niche female roles like the SoB.

Iracundus, I'm with you on the need for some diversity amongst the humans of 40k. That's why I try to paint my humans (so guards, cultists, acolytes...) in non-uniform skintones...

Same reason space wolves talk like Vikings, thousand sons have a thick accent as if from Northern Africa, and the white scares have a Mongolian theme. Because reasons