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For example, i want to join a Chaos Lord from a warband that has Objective Secured to a unit of spawns that don't have objective secured. Does the resulting squad get obsec?

Objective Secured does not confer to a unit when a model with the special rule joins said unit.

The unit isn't obsec but the IC still is.

 mrhappyface wrote:
The unit isn't obsec but the IC still is.

How? It is not operating has its own unit when joined to another. If it is, I can just gun the guy down without it having any support.

 Charistoph wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The unit isn't obsec but the IC still is.

How? It is not operating has its own unit when joined to another. If it is, I can just gun the guy down without it having any support.

If the IC is within 3" of an objective, it belongs to the CSM player (unless an enemy ObSec unit is also within 3"). But if only Spawn are within 3", it only belongs to the CSM player if no enemy units at all are within 3" (excepting certain non-scoring units, like Drones).

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
The unit isn't obsec but the IC still is.

How? It is not operating has its own unit when joined to another. If it is, I can just gun the guy down without it having any support.

If the IC is within 3" of an objective, it belongs to the CSM player (unless an enemy ObSec unit is also within 3"). But if only Spawn are within 3", it only belongs to the CSM player if no enemy units at all are within 3" (excepting certain non-scoring units, like Drones).

Every version of the Objective Secured rule states this applies to a unit with this special rule, not a model with this special rule.

So, either:
1) the IC is operating as part of a unit without this special rule and not as his own originally purchased unit, so cannot properly secure it.
OR
2) the IC is operating as his own unit while also being joined to another unit. This means I can shoot the IC as an exclusive unit without fear of him being able to reallocate Wounds from position or Look Out Sir.

Take your pick.

So does Eternal Warrior go away if I join a non EW unit? Because that doesn't apply to the whole squad either.

At the time the 7e rule book was written there was no way for an obsec IC to join a non obsec unit, but bow thanks to partially obsec detachments it is possible.
RAW are out of date.

JNAProductions wrote:So does Eternal Warrior go away if I join a non EW unit? Because that doesn't apply to the whole squad either.

Who does EW affect? Eternal Warrior does not affect a unit, but a model with the rule. Rules do not get granted between ICs and units, so a unit with EW on their Datasheet would not give an joined IC the rule any more than an IC with EW would give it to the unit they joined.

mrhappyface wrote:At the time the 7e rule book was written there was no way for an obsec IC to join a non obsec unit, but bow thanks to partially obsec detachments it is possible.
RAW are out of date.

And it has been written again several times including a certain Demi-Company formation which includes an Independent Character, and two if you want to get certain Transports at cost.

I know that GW writers do not consider the connections and ramifications of their rules, but still doesn't change the facts of how the rules are presented and to whom they are addressed. If you want them changed, isn't that what the Proposed Rules section there for?

Less "written again" and more copied without thinking.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Less "written again" and more copied without thinking.

Maybe, maybe not. Objective Secured is rarely unit specific and usually given out as part of a detachment bonus. For those it is not a detachment bonus, none are ICs, are they?

For considering that it actually means "models" instead of "units" indicates that you are aware of some information not presented in either FAQ or the rulebook, or completely ignoring how it is given out and to whom.

 mrhappyface wrote:
At the time the 7e rule book was written there was no way for an obsec IC to join a non obsec unit, but bow thanks to partially obsec detachments it is possible.
RAW are out of date.

How did you play a CAD with a non-obsec IC joined to the obsec troops? You can't really claim that the rules are out of date once you consider that.

HIWPI: treat obsec status on a per model basis. Is a model with obsec within 3"? If so then you have the benefit of obsec, otherwise no dice.

That is the point, back then you couldn't have a CAD with a none obsec unit: you only had a completely obsec army or a completely non-obsec army.
It was only after the 7e rule book had been published when detachments with only parts of it being obsec came out.

 mrhappyface wrote:
That is the point, back then you couldn't have a CAD with a none obsec unit: you only had a completely obsec army or a completely non-obsec army.
It was only after the 7e rule book had been published when detachments with only parts of it being obsec came out.

Okay, now that's false for a number of reasons.

7th Edition introduced Objective Secured. Before that, units were either Scoring, Denial, or neither. In 6th Edition only Troops were Scoring, and only if they weren't Vehicles, Swarms, or under certain conditions (Embarked, Falling Back, etc). I can't remember 5th Edition, and I no longer have the book, but Scoring wasn't called Objective Secured at all.

So, in an edition in which only Troops scored and detachments matched the CAD (more or less) and AD (more or less), there was no way you could field a "completely obsec army", since at least one model had to be non-Scoring. Even the few Formations that existed in 6th Edition were not all Troops (except maybe some of the Leviathan stuff, I don't have them memorized).

So, yeah. Armies were only partially "ObSec" for at least 2 years before we got our hands on it. And even back then, it was still all about the units, not the models.

IF you read the FAQ models from an IC do not confer to a unit they joined pr vice versa unless specifically stated.

danny1995 wrote:
IF you read the FAQ models from an IC do not confer to a unit they joined pr vice versa unless specifically stated.

The "FAQ" does not say anything on this. The "Draft FAQ" does say something on this, but says no more on what "specifically stated" means than the IC Special Rules or Stubborn.

And let's not go in to that again.

 Charistoph wrote:

danny1995 wrote:
IF you read the FAQ models from an IC do not confer to a unit they joined pr vice versa unless specifically stated.

The "FAQ" does not say anything on this. The "Draft FAQ" does say something on this, but says no more on what "specifically stated" means than the IC Special Rules or Stubborn.

And let's not go in to that again.

The Draft FAQ only clarifies what is obvious to most already.

I am not sure why you continue to be so dumbfounded as to how the Stubborn special rule on a model confers the ability of Stubborn to the unit.

What happens in the case of Stubborn is the conferring of the ability of Stubborn beyond the models that have the Stubborn special rule on their datasheet.

Stubborn is not a unit special rule, although it will often be assigned to each model in a unit and for most intents and purposes act as a unit special rule. Stubborn is actually a model special rule that has specific phrasing that allows the conferring of the ability of the special rule from a model that has the special rule to a unit that contains that model. So its a model special rule that confers an ability to its host unit. Until you can wrap your head around this you will be forever confused.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule" followed by "can" or "they ignore", etc. allows for the conferring of the ability of the special rule beyond just those models who have the special rule. In fact, a special rule phrased thusly will confer the ability of the special rule to the entire unit.

Now if it were not for the Independent Character Special Rules rule then the special rule would automatically confer to any attached Independent Characters. However, the Independent Character Special Rules rule is exceedingly clear that the ability of the special rule is not conferred automatically to the IC. The Independent Character Special Rules rule forces a check to see if the special rule has phrasing which enable the conferring of the ability of the special rule from the model with the special rule to the unit. Stubborn has exactly this kind of phrasing. Indeed, Stubborn matches the standard set forth by the Independent Character Special Rules rule because it is the very standard mentioned by the rule.

The abilities of special rules do not confer to include more than the models that have them on their datasheets unless there is phrasing that specifically confers the ability.

 koooaei wrote:
For example, i want to join a Chaos Lord from a warband that has Objective Secured to a unit of spawns that don't have objective secured. Does the resulting squad get obsec?

Can you post the exact wording of the rules in question?

If the Objective Secured rule reads exactly like the Objective Secured rule in the BRB then the Chaos Lord never has the Objective Secured ability (even while attached to a troops unit with the Objective Secured rule) since the BRB Objective Secured rule does not satisfy the Independent Character Special Rules rule by specifically conferring the ability to the attached IC (as I outline above in my discussion on Stubborn).

You are ignored by me, col_ignored, because of your toxic contributions to topics like this.

You have ignored what these things actually state repeatedly and repeatedly misrepresented what the book states and what I have said.

The full official FAQ states nothing on the IC rule, save for how it deals with Infiltrators. The Draft FAQ doesn't go into the "why"s and "what"s involved, it just states the same general stuff that is already in the book and gives a very short answer on it with no further details.

And as I said, "let's not go in to that again".

 Charistoph wrote:
You are ignored by me, col_ignored, because of your toxic contributions to topics like this.

You have ignored what these things actually state repeatedly and repeatedly misrepresented what the book states and what I have said.

The full official FAQ states nothing on the IC rule, save for how it deals with Infiltrators. The Draft FAQ doesn't go into the "why"s and "what"s involved, it just states the same general stuff that is already in the book and gives a very short answer on it with no further details.

And as I said, "let's not go in to that again".

I can understand why you might find my rational argument toxic to your fallacious argument, but this forum is for rational arguments.

The Independent Character Special Rules rule is directly applicable to the case at hand.



If you are hand-waving away the Special Rules rule then you are House-Ruling. Please submit your House Rule to the Proposed Rules forum.

This forum is for RAW discussion of the rules. We need to to follow the Independent Character Special Rules rule.

Can someone post exact wording of the rules in question for the Chaos Lord in the warband? Per the Independent Character Special Rules rule, the ability of the special rule is not conferred to the IC unless there is something specified to that effect in the rule itself.

 Charistoph wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
That is the point, back then you couldn't have a CAD with a none obsec unit: you only had a completely obsec army or a completely non-obsec army.
It was only after the 7e rule book had been published when detachments with only parts of it being obsec came out.

Okay, now that's false for a number of reasons.

7th Edition introduced Objective Secured. Before that, units were either Scoring, Denial, or neither. In 6th Edition only Troops were Scoring, and only if they weren't Vehicles, Swarms, or under certain conditions (Embarked, Falling Back, etc). I can't remember 5th Edition, and I no longer have the book, but Scoring wasn't called Objective Secured at all.

So, in an edition in which only Troops scored and detachments matched the CAD (more or less) and AD (more or less), there was no way you could field a "completely obsec army", since at least one model had to be non-Scoring. Even the few Formations that existed in 6th Edition were not all Troops (except maybe some of the Leviathan stuff, I don't have them memorized).

So, yeah. Armies were only partially "ObSec" for at least 2 years before we got our hands on it. And even back then, it was still all about the units, not the models.

Not entirely true, back then it was simply troops are "scoring" units, obsec only became a special rule in 7e.

But on the qhole I must say: I do sometimes write some absolute bs without thinking about what I'm typing. My apologize.

Actually ObSec was first introduced in the Rising Leviathan dataslates. Of course, you never had the problem of ICs joining the unit because the only Tyranid IC is the Tyranid Prime (and be honest how many people run it? At least outside of Warrior broods).

7th edition was when every army, with HQs and Troops anyway, had access to ObSec.