Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 10:53:55
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
AUT
|
Hi guys, given an independent character (e.g. techmanrine) with the ability to repair (blessing of the omnissah or similar): * i need to be in base contact or embarked upon the unit i want to repair. * in the independent character section of the rulebook in section "joining or leaving a unit" is stated, that an independent character that doesn't intend to or cannot join a unit must stay 2" away from it. * joing units containing vehicles or monstrous infantry is not permitted as stated in introduction of the independent character section. --> this would mean, an independent character is not able to reach base contact with any vehicles and can only repair transport vehicles by being embarked upon. i already discussed this matter with some clubmates but we couldn't resolve this matter. did we overlook somtehing here, as this seems a bit odd. thanks in advance
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/07 11:24:09
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 13:42:35
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I mean, this isn't based on checking the rules, but logically the second and third bullets cancel out. You cannot join a vehicle unit, so the restriction to remain 2" away does not apply.
|
DFTT |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 14:19:23
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Auspicious Daemonic Herald
|
Yeah ICs aren't restricted from being within 2" of a unit it cannot join. So Captyn_Bob is correct.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 16:02:40
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
Captyn_Bob wrote:I mean, this isn't based on checking the rules, but logically the second and third bullets cancel out. You cannot join a vehicle unit, so the restriction to remain 2" away does not apply.
Actually it does apply.
If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.
The very rule that tells you to keep away from it if you cannot join a unit. Blessing of the Omnissiah does not specifically state that it allows the Techmarine to approach a Vehicle it has no intention of Embarking within that 2". The only RAW way to deal with it is to move the Vehicle in to Base contact with the IC, instead of moving the IC in to base contact with the Vehicle.
There are two ways to deal with this:
1) House Rule it so that Blessing of the Omnissiah allows the Techmarine to ignore that restriction for the purposes of using his Blessing. Most people would understand this and allow for it.
2) Use the ruling of the Draft FAQ on Techmarines and take Servitors. As long as he has Servitors, he cannot leave his unit to join another, and that MIGHT allow for the overriding of this condition.
Either way, talk with your opponent on it. If they won't allow for either option, you may either just change your list or decide he is not worth playing after all.
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 16:07:49
Subject: Re:repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Fresh-Faced New User
AUT
|
Don't get me wrong, of course i don't think the "joining and leaving a unit" section of the IC rules would be the right place to restrict the repair-ability in any way. But the wording here is very explicit: 1. Independent Characters can join other units. They cannot, however, join units that contain vehicles or Monstrous Creatures. 2. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. So this "(cannot)" could either mean things like having already joined another unit, or being locked in combat or as specifically stated in 1. - being the wrong unit type. Edit: thanks for the workaround Charistoph
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/07 16:15:02
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 16:16:24
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
And this is why playing 40k strictly RAW is ridiculous.
|
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 17:04:43
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
It definitely can be. This is just one example of many in the rulebook alone.
That being said, how one deals with it is subject to local discussion. Ideas can come in quick snippets here or run the gambit in Proposed Rules.
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 17:04:49
Subject: Re:repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
|
Yeah. RAW, the ability is just borked. RAI is pretty clear though.
|
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 17:14:30
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
For HIWPI, just walk your Techmarine up to the vehicle you want to repair and start working on it.
|
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 17:22:17
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Raw is such a good abbreviation as playing 40k raw has no flavour
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/07 17:28:23
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 18:19:19
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
ian wrote:Raw is such a good abbreviation as playing 40k raw has no flavour
Also will probably make you sick and might kill you.
|
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/07 18:23:57
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
Lance845 wrote:ian wrote:Raw is such a good abbreviation as playing 40k raw has no flavour
Also will probably make you sick and might kill you.
Oddly enough, some foods are actually more healthy eaten RAW then cooked, though other preparations do make them taste better.
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 01:03:20
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
|
Technically, permission to make base to base contact is implied within the Repair rule, as it requires base contact. It is weak permission, but permission nonetheless.
SJ
|
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 02:00:41
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
|
jeffersonian000 wrote:Technically, permission to make base to base contact is implied within the Repair rule, as it requires base contact. It is weak permission, but permission nonetheless.
SJ
This.. Codex trumps BRB
|
Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 02:05:01
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
jeffersonian000 wrote:Technically, permission to make base to base contact is implied within the Repair rule, as it requires base contact. It is weak permission, but permission nonetheless.
SJ
It's not permission at all. A condition that governs when an act can be performed is not permission to meet that condition. That's circular reasoning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pretty much this. It's been an issue, rules-wise, for several editions now. Most people either ignore it or have never actually considered it might be an issue.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/17 02:05:51
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 02:09:08
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Lieutenant General
|
quickfuze wrote: jeffersonian000 wrote:Technically, permission to make base to base contact is implied within the Repair rule, as it requires base contact. It is weak permission, but permission nonetheless.
SJ
This.. Codex trumps BRB
Not true. 'Basic versus Advanced' ( pg. 13, main rulebook) is the rule in question and doesn't mean that the codex always trumps the rulebook.
|
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 02:39:34
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
|
Ghaz wrote: quickfuze wrote: jeffersonian000 wrote:Technically, permission to make base to base contact is implied within the Repair rule, as it requires base contact. It is weak permission, but permission nonetheless.
SJ
This.. Codex trumps BRB
Not true. 'Basic versus Advanced' ( pg. 13, main rulebook) is the rule in question and doesn't mean that the codex always trumps the rulebook.
So you're saying that the Techmarine Special Repair rule doesn't override the BRB rules on IC joining units and moving within 2"?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/17 02:47:29
Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 03:09:16
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Lieutenant General
|
What I'm saying is that you're statement that the codex trumps the rulebook is not always true, plus in this instance the two rules don't contradict each other.
|
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 03:59:46
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
quickfuze wrote:
So you're saying that the Techmarine Special Repair rule doesn't override the BRB rules on IC joining units and moving within 2"?
Since it doesn't refer to that rule at all, no, of course it doesn't over-ride it. It should, but to do that it would have to specifically say that it does.
Basically, the Special Repair rule says that you have to be in base contact.
In order to use that rule, you need to be able to move into base contact. You don't get to just declare you're using Special Repair and subsequently ignore anything that would stop the techmarine from doing so... The same logic that says you can ignore the IC joining rules would also allow you to ignore, say, difficult terrain rolls, or movement range, or being locked in combat.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/17 16:50:51
Subject: repair as independent character - base contact issue
|
 |
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
|
A common mistake people make when applying logical rules to any of the 40k rule sets is that GW does not write rules that follow logic. They write rule sets that add additional meaning with each new concept, without necessarily overriding or replacing previous concepts. We all know this as bad writing, as it leads to threads like this on forums like this.
However, the truth of the matter is that GW writes rules that should be followed as plainly written. When they tell you that your model can do something, they in fact mean that the model can do that specific thing even if it contradicts or conflicts with previous rules. Sure, IC have a rule preventing them from approaching closer than 2" to a model they cannot join, yet some ICs have a special rule that requires them to close to base contact with a model they cannot join in order to attrmpt a repair. Does the normal IC restriction prevent this implied permission? No, it does not, because plainly readying the repair special rules informs us that base contact is fine in this instance when normally it sould not be allowed. That is RAW, not RAI, although it does require a better understanding on how GW writes their rules to work versus how we as players think the rules should work. The recent draft FAQ is a great example on this fundamental disconnect, as GW is defining how tgey play their own game versus how we play their game. Suffice it to say, implied permission is permission until GW states otherwise.
SJ
|
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
|
|
 |
 |
|