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Tyrannofex or Exocrine? which is better for their points? I'm thinking the Exocrine is better because it provides AP2 shooting which is really rare for the bugs. Tyranno has 2+ save though and can be kitted for double templates to roast infantry. Tough to make the call.

There are plenty of things to ignore a Tyrano armour (grav, plasma, etc) so I find most bugs rely on the cover saves. If I were to pick one I'd say exocrine for the AP shooting but overall heavy support wise I prefer Mawloc for their AP2 Large blast burrow move.

Go 3 Mawlocs, and bring some support units (Lictors).

The Tyrannofex's Acid spray is pretty excellent at roasting lots of Marines in one go, but is best used in conjunction with a Tyranocite drop pod. That does mean that unless you've sent the Flyrants up to support it it's going to be susceptable to Instinctive Behaviour. The Rupture Cannon is useless so never take it.

The Exoocrine's Bio-Plasmic Cannon is excellent, particularly with the Symbiotic Targeting giving you BS4, but it only has 24" range so don't expect to make much use of it before turn 3 and if facing gun line armies expect to have to move up and loose the +1BS bonus.

As Skycapt44 said, I'd take the Mawloc over both of them, and the Exocrine over the Tyrannofex for the S7, AP2.

The main factor into which one to take is what your local meta looks like. Seeing a lot of light non-skimmer vehicles and/or heavy infantry? Take the Exocrine. Have a lot of Xenos or Guard infantry supplanted by high AV vehicles or skimmers? Take the Tyrannofex. Lots of invisible deathstars? Take neither, go with Mawlocs instead.

One thing the Exocrine has going for it over the Tyrannofex is Formation support. The Living Artillery node is excellent and fairly cheap, while the Bioblast node is fairly expensive and the bonus is fairly minimal. That said, the Tyrannofex is easier to slot into your typical aggressive Tyranid lists since it wants to get close to the enemy anyway to use its templates while the Exocrine will generally want to hang back at its max' range to avoid getting tied down in assault (Tyrannofex doesn't really care, since it has a nasty overwatch and can hide behind its 2+ against most things).

How about Toxicrine? I feel like this unit just isn't durable enough but comes with some neat tricks.

BTW I already have a mawloc in my list - I've considered 2 but some firepower seems more appealing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How about Toxicrine? I feel like this unit just isn't durable enough but comes with some neat tricks.

The Toxicrine has generally performed well for me, though it can't do much against walkers or superheavies which has sadly kept it out of most of my Tyranid lists. That said, it doesn't need to hug Spore Clouds like the other monsters and fairly resilient to grav spam. I generally run it in a Tyrannocyte and have it drop in the backfield in cover and have it venture out to tear up whatever artillery in the backfield is causing grief. It really wants Paroxysm though to help land more hits when fighting regular grunts...

Also it is a shame it can't take any biomorphs. It is probably one of the few things I'd actually splurge for Regeneration on, due to the built-in Acid Blood and low armor.

.

The way I see it, the Toxicrene is basically a better Trygon, and a worse Dimachaeron.
All three of those fill the same role as big beatstick close combat MCs. Each has their own minor gimmicks, but in the end the Dimachaeron is the best of the three at murdering everything.

Arson Fire wrote:
The way I see it, the Toxicrene is basically a better Trygon, and a worse Dimachaeron.
All three of those fill the same role as big beatstick close combat MCs. Each has their own minor gimmicks, but in the end the Dimachaeron is the best of the three at murdering everything.

True, though of those three the Toxicrene is the cheapest and probably the most durable against shooting (in melee the Dimachaeron is superior to all three due to its access to 4+ FNP). The Dima is also a forge world piece whose rules are currently out of print (annoyingly), while the other two are more accessible.

The Dima is also a forge world piece whose rules are currently out of print (annoyingly),

Is he not still valid via Imp Armor vol 4 2nd ed?

I'm a bit out of touch with tyranids, but aren't there formations you can use to effectively get more heavy slots?

I like the t-fex, exocrine and mawloc. Tough choice. I'd prefer mawlocs for AP2 anti infantry but obviously the exocrine for anti armour (if it's light armour we're talking about)

That said the t-fex isn't terrible against infantry with good saves. It can force plenty of saves, and it's an excellent tarpit if a unit doesn't have AP2 CC attacks

Ratius wrote:
Is he not still valid via Imp Armor vol 4 2nd ed?

I believe so, but last I knew the book was unavailable.

Snake Tortoise wrote:I'm a bit out of touch with tyranids, but aren't there formations you can use to effectively get more heavy slots?

In a way yes, though the unit requirements make them quite expensive if you only want an extra unit or two.

- Wrecker Node - 3 melee Carnifex broods and melee Warrior synapse anchor. (450 points base)
- Bioblast Node - 3 shooty Carnifex broods, 1 Tyrannofex, and 1 Warrior synapse anchor with mandatory basic bio-cannon. (680 points base)
- Living Artillery Node - 1 Exocrine, 1 Biovore brood (must be full size), and 1 Warrior synapse anchor with mandatory basic bio-cannon. (390 points base)
- Hypertoxic Node - 1 Hive Tyrant, 1 Toxicrine, and 3 Venomthrope Broods (460 points base)
- Subterrain Swarm - 1 Trygon Prime, 1 Trygon, 1 Mawloc, and 3 Ravener Broods (750 points base)

I always bring a living artillery node standard with all my lists.

Nids 2 biggest weaknesses are high AP shooting and short/mid range.

The biovores are one of our very few sources of long range weapons and dropping 3 large blast barrage with rerollable scatter can deliver a lot of wounds.

The exocrine is one of the only ways we have to reliably killer TEQ and Light/mid vehicles. The fact that the gun can either be a large blast (rerollable scatter in formation) or 6 shots is gravy. Though to be honest I 90% of the time shoot the 6 shots. Very rarely will my opponents give me the chance to grab more than 5-6 models under the pie plate.

Also, my exocrine is my favorite model.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Ratius wrote:
Is he not still valid via Imp Armor vol 4 2nd ed?

I believe so, but last I knew the book was unavailable.

It is currently available in a paperback edition.

Yeah, Anphellion Project just got rereleased in paperback this last week or so.

My personal preference is Exocrine>Mawloc>Tyrannofex. Just a short summary of my experience with those:

Exocrine is a 24" no-go zone for heavy infantry, jetbikes and light vechicles. Take him in Artillery Node as sugested above and/or throw in a Venomthrope or a Malanthrope and you have as good artillery as Tyranids can get. If it weren't for 24" he would be a no-brainer.

Mawloc has infinite range but unless you are lucky on Mishap table, he only gets to "shoot" two or three times a game and is less reliable than Exocrine. Otherwise he's great and keeps enemy "buff bubbles" under controll.

Tyrannofex - he's mostly on anti infantry duty (if you don't houserule Rupture Cannon to be either usefull or properly costed) and a good damage sponge if you don't face AP2 spam. He is a solid choice, but IMHO outshined by Flyrants at his supposed purpose...

Cool guys - Thanks for the responses. Never really considered the living artillery node because biovores are fething ugly. Then again it's an army of bugs so...ugly might actually be what I'm looking for.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
I always bring a living artillery node standard with all my lists.

Nids 2 biggest weaknesses are high AP shooting and short/mid range.

The biovores are one of our very few sources of long range weapons and dropping 3 large blast barrage with rerollable scatter can deliver a lot of wounds.

The exocrine is one of the only ways we have to reliably killer TEQ and Light/mid vehicles. The fact that the gun can either be a large blast (rerollable scatter in formation) or 6 shots is gravy. Though to be honest I 90% of the time shoot the 6 shots. Very rarely will my opponents give me the chance to grab more than 5-6 models under the pie plate.

Also, my exocrine is my favorite model.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Ratius wrote:
Is he not still valid via Imp Armor vol 4 2nd ed?

I believe so, but last I knew the book was unavailable.

It is currently available in a paperback edition.

Is that a Carnifex with a rupture cannon strapped to it's back? Clever.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cool guys - Thanks for the responses. Never really considered the living artillery node because biovores are fething ugly. Then again it's an army of bugs so...ugly might actually be what I'm looking for.

I'm really surprised, that when GW made new plastic dual kits for new Leviathan units they did not made one for -vores... But as they are, Pyrovores (stock or with shortened cannon) make up for much more acceptable count-as Biovores. Or you can easily base your conversions on Hive Guards and strap something suitable to their carapaces. Biovores are more than worthy investments (especially if you play against non-Power-Armour infantry a lot, then Artillery Node is a must have).

I have some hive guard to biovore conversions - check the second page of my gallery for em (would link but am on phone). Really easy conversion to do, all you need is the hive guard kit and they are both cheaper and less fugly than the actual biovore models.

Our best HS is undoubtedly the Mawloc, but that's mostly down to the meta - high strength, AP2 IC blasts are a rarity in the game and its even rarer they can target invisible units. If things with high armour but that are less likely to get cover saves are more prominent, the exocrine will be more viable. You do need either multiple mawlocs and/or lictors though.

T-fexes are a nice brick to drop on the backfield, whilst dakkafexes are also good in a pod - but they're nearly as pricey as a flyrant so unless you're doing maelstrom its hard to justify em, and even then you might just want smaller units to grab objecctives. Toxicrenes I imagine serve a similar purpose but I've yet to play with one.

Trygons are sadly pretty pants, the endless swarm is the only place I'd run one.

Benlisted wrote:
I have some hive guard to biovore conversions - check the second page of my gallery for em (would link but am on phone). Really easy conversion to do, all you need is the hive guard kit and they are both cheaper and less fugly than the actual biovore models.

Our best HS is undoubtedly the Mawloc, but that's mostly down to the meta - high strength, AP2 IC blasts are a rarity in the game and its even rarer they can target invisible units. If things with high armour but that are less likely to get cover saves are more prominent, the exocrine will be more viable. You do need either multiple mawlocs and/or lictors though.

T-fexes are a nice brick to drop on the backfield, whilst dakkafexes are also good in a pod - but they're nearly as pricey as a flyrant so unless you're doing maelstrom its hard to justify em, and even then you might just want smaller units to grab objecctives. Toxicrenes I imagine serve a similar purpose but I've yet to play with one.

Trygons are sadly pretty pants, the endless swarm is the only place I'd run one.

Nice - I like that conversion and it's the best kind of conversion. Looks better and is cheaper!

Benlisted wrote:
I have some hive guard to biovore conversions - check the second page of my gallery for em (would link but am on phone). Really easy conversion to do, all you need is the hive guard kit and they are both cheaper and less fugly than the actual biovore models.

Our best HS is undoubtedly the Mawloc, but that's mostly down to the meta - high strength, AP2 IC blasts are a rarity in the game and its even rarer they can target invisible units. If things with high armour but that are less likely to get cover saves are more prominent, the exocrine will be more viable. You do need either multiple mawlocs and/or lictors though.

T-fexes are a nice brick to drop on the backfield, whilst dakkafexes are also good in a pod - but they're nearly as pricey as a flyrant so unless you're doing maelstrom its hard to justify em, and even then you might just want smaller units to grab objecctives. Toxicrenes I imagine serve a similar purpose but I've yet to play with one.

Trygons are sadly pretty pants, the endless swarm is the only place I'd run one.

Very nice conversion indeed - exactly what I had in mind

On the topic of hive guard - what is the going take on them? I really like them - but never have played with or against them? Stock ignores cover with decent range on a tough platform. I guess people just don't like bs3 low volume shooting?

 Xenomancers wrote:
On the topic of hive guard - what is the going take on them? I really like them - but never have played with or against them? Stock ignores cover with decent range on a tough platform. I guess people just don't like bs3 low volume shooting?

Exocrine is better than three of them for the same price and if taken as single models they take up precious FOC slots, that are needed for Zoanthropes/Venomthropes. My houserule solution for this problem is "purchase as squad, deploy separately" for all Elite choices. This way they have their well defined place in my games, but are still not competetive, mostly because Homing doesn't really matter on (almost) flat tables and AP4 is a huge drawback against most common tournament lists...

In my view, T-fex vs Exocrine is very list dependent.

Both are mid tier units and are not going to help you if you run into a power build. If you expect to play against power builds/tournament lists, your most likely looking at Mawlocs to support the obligatory flock of flyrants, if you do a non-flying MC at all.

In a less cut throat environment, like what I assume OP is in, I find value in both depending on how I build and play my list. If I am planing to be up in the other armies face quickly with units like raveners, horma's, and podded devgaunts, then I like double flamer t-fexes in pods. They are durable, scary, and can clean out units like pathfinders when they arrive, adding to the threat saturation of my fast and deep striking units.

If I am planing to march across the table, being to durable to kill, then I like Exocrine's. They add an AP2 threat and force players to chose between shooting at them and things like Tervigon's and carnifexes.

Hive Guard are fun, but they don't bring enough threat. If they had an extra shot or got bumped back to BS4 I would be all about them. As is, they are often frustrating-a squad will do a few hull points or kill a few models but take three turns to finish off the target.

As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

babelfish wrote:


As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

Why a Hive Fleet Detachment instead of a second CAD for the ObSec on the Mucolids?

 Imateria wrote:

babelfish wrote:


As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

Why a Hive Fleet Detachment instead of a second CAD for the ObSec on the Mucolids?

Mucolids are Living Bomb, same as normal Spore Mines - non-scoring, non-denial unit - they don't benefit from ObSec (or is there such questionable ruling in any of popular tournament FAQs?). The question however is still relevant, as Hive Fleet Detachment requires one bomb more and offers same 6 slots for Elites/Heavy Support/Fast Attack. It offers one more HQ choice, but we're discussing Hive Guards and Exocrines, not Flyrants...

And 6 slots are still not enough for "proper" MSU Elites and does not negate the relative advantage of Exocrines over Hive Guards. Those 6 slots are room for mere 300pts (6 guards) of MSU style Guards and have HQ "tax" of about 400pts... So "Exocrine is better than Hive Guards" still holds.

Of course doubling (or trippling) CAD is the only available "legal" solution, but it's neither perfect or handy if you want to build fluffy yet working Gaunt horde.

nou wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

babelfish wrote:


As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

Why a Hive Fleet Detachment instead of a second CAD for the ObSec on the Mucolids?

Mucolids are Living Bomb, same as normal Spore Mines - non-scoring, non-denial unit - they don't benefit from ObSec (or is there such questionable ruling in any of popular tournament FAQs?). The question however is still relevant, as Hive Fleet Detachment requires one bomb more and offers same 6 slots for Elites/Heavy Support/Fast Attack. It offers one more HQ choice, but we're discussing Hive Guards and Exocrines, not Flyrants...

And 6 slots are still not enough for "proper" MSU Elites and does not negate the relative advantage of Exocrines over Hive Guards. Those 6 slots are room for mere 300pts (6 guards) of MSU style Guards and have HQ "tax" of about 400pts... So "Exocrine is better than Hive Guards" still holds.

Of course doubling (or trippling) CAD is the only available "legal" solution, but it's neither perfect or handy if you want to build fluffy yet working Gaunt horde.

The Hive Fleet Detachment over a second CAD was because I'm so used to running CAD+Hive Fleet that it didn't occur to me that double CAD gets the same thing done. I agree that a second CAD would work, and save you the 15 points. Second CAD would be the better default way to get the slots, although individual builds would of course vary.

I'm not arguing "Hive Guard are better than Exocrines". I'm arguing that the barrier for effectively using multiple Tyranid elite units is points cost, not access to force org slots. I'm not sure what your thinking of when you say "proper MSU". 6 single Hive Guard are not going to do much, nor will 6 single Venomthropes. I could see spamming single Zoey's as part of some strange build that wants lots of warp charge, but other than that you want the full unit in a pod, which is close to 400 points. Point being, Hive Guard and Zoenthropes want to be in full size squads, which are expensive, so you don't get the chance to use lots of force org slots on them. Venomthropes like being alone better, but you only need so many of them, so again, you are going to move on to other units before you fill 6 slots.

On the subject of Hive Guard vs. Exocrines, the units have different roles. Exocrines kill 3+ and 2+ infantry. Hive Guard kill light/medium vehicles and light infantry. Hive Guard shouldn't be compared to Exocines, they should be compared to units that have the same role. In the current codex, that translates to dakkafexes, which are better than Hive Guard, and flyrants, which are, well, flyrants.

babelfish wrote:

nou wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

babelfish wrote:


As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

Why a Hive Fleet Detachment instead of a second CAD for the ObSec on the Mucolids?

Mucolids are Living Bomb, same as normal Spore Mines - non-scoring, non-denial unit - they don't benefit from ObSec (or is there such questionable ruling in any of popular tournament FAQs?). The question however is still relevant, as Hive Fleet Detachment requires one bomb more and offers same 6 slots for Elites/Heavy Support/Fast Attack. It offers one more HQ choice, but we're discussing Hive Guards and Exocrines, not Flyrants...

And 6 slots are still not enough for "proper" MSU Elites and does not negate the relative advantage of Exocrines over Hive Guards. Those 6 slots are room for mere 300pts (6 guards) of MSU style Guards and have HQ "tax" of about 400pts... So "Exocrine is better than Hive Guards" still holds.

Of course doubling (or trippling) CAD is the only available "legal" solution, but it's neither perfect or handy if you want to build fluffy yet working Gaunt horde.

The Hive Fleet Detachment over a second CAD was because I'm so used to running CAD+Hive Fleet that it didn't occur to me that double CAD gets the same thing done. I agree that a second CAD would work, and save you the 15 points. Second CAD would be the better default way to get the slots, although individual builds would of course vary.

I'm not arguing "Hive Guard are better than Exocrines". I'm arguing that the barrier for effectively using multiple Tyranid elite units is points cost, not access to force org slots. I'm not sure what your thinking of when you say "proper MSU". 6 single Hive Guard are not going to do much, nor will 6 single Venomthropes. I could see spamming single Zoey's as part of some strange build that wants lots of warp charge, but other than that you want the full unit in a pod, which is close to 400 points. Point being, Hive Guard and Zoenthropes want to be in full size squads, which are expensive, so you don't get the chance to use lots of force org slots on them. Venomthropes like being alone better, but you only need so many of them, so again, you are going to move on to other units before you fill 6 slots.

On the subject of Hive Guard vs. Exocrines, the units have different roles. Exocrines kill 3+ and 2+ infantry. Hive Guard kill light/medium vehicles and light infantry. Hive Guard shouldn't be compared to Exocines, they should be compared to units that have the same role. In the current codex, that translates to dakkafexes, which are better than Hive Guard, and flyrants, which are, well, flyrants.

We obviously play in completely different setting Your "comparable units list" is completely different than mine (Dakkafexes are nothing like guards if you play Maelstrom without kill points on 3D terrain heavy tables with awfull lot of cover and not Eternal War missions on "standard tournament table". In such setting Dakkafexes are utterly useless...). I understand your points, and even agree on them if you play kill point games. They are just not applicable to what I play. So just to clear things up on "proper MSU" - Hive Guard squad split into single models can be distributed in the backfield and require three different attacks/units to be wiped out/shut down completely, while they have the option to either shoot at the same target or three different ones. So they are both more durable and versatile this way. Hope this helps to understand what I meant. Cheers!

Lance845 wrote:
It is currently available in a paperback edition.

Imateria wrote:Yeah, Anphellion Project just got rereleased in paperback this last week or so.

Thanks for the corrections, I didn't know. Glad to hear it is back, I might have to see when our shop's next forge world order is due to be placed. Would be nice to be able to run this fellow with an actual rule book at hand.

Xenomancers wrote:On the topic of hive guard - what is the going take on them? I really like them - but never have played with or against them? Stock ignores cover with decent range on a tough platform. I guess people just don't like bs3 low volume shooting?

Besides the nerfs they suffered between books, the other major problem is that they don't mesh well with current Tyranid tournament list archetypes that favor high mobility, synapse independence, and extreme MSU for objective grabbing. That said, Impaler Cannons are still a terror for skimmers and in cover rich (especially BLoS-rich that lets them take advantage of their indirect fire) they can do well.

@xenomancers

Its a fex torso, tusk head, and scything talons. Heavily modified rupture canon embedded in the torso/shell with venom sacks used for eyes around the head of the gun. A harpy tail. Toxicrene legs, and tervigon walking legs that were given an extra joint by adding the shoulder to elbow from another pair of scything talons to the shoulder joint. Finally tyrant guard scything talons added to head/tail to make it look boss. Got more pics of it in my p&m blog if interested.

nou wrote:

babelfish wrote:

nou wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

babelfish wrote:


As to the running out of slots, the Hive Fleet formation answers all of your problems. Take a normal CAD with the HQ you want and two Mucolids as troops, then a Hive Fleet detachment with a second HQ and three Mucolids as troops. Now you have 6 slots for heavies/fast/elite. With 'nid's, you will run out of points before you fill those slots.

Why a Hive Fleet Detachment instead of a second CAD for the ObSec on the Mucolids?

Mucolids are Living Bomb, same as normal Spore Mines - non-scoring, non-denial unit - they don't benefit from ObSec (or is there such questionable ruling in any of popular tournament FAQs?). The question however is still relevant, as Hive Fleet Detachment requires one bomb more and offers same 6 slots for Elites/Heavy Support/Fast Attack. It offers one more HQ choice, but we're discussing Hive Guards and Exocrines, not Flyrants...

And 6 slots are still not enough for "proper" MSU Elites and does not negate the relative advantage of Exocrines over Hive Guards. Those 6 slots are room for mere 300pts (6 guards) of MSU style Guards and have HQ "tax" of about 400pts... So "Exocrine is better than Hive Guards" still holds.

Of course doubling (or trippling) CAD is the only available "legal" solution, but it's neither perfect or handy if you want to build fluffy yet working Gaunt horde.

The Hive Fleet Detachment over a second CAD was because I'm so used to running CAD+Hive Fleet that it didn't occur to me that double CAD gets the same thing done. I agree that a second CAD would work, and save you the 15 points. Second CAD would be the better default way to get the slots, although individual builds would of course vary.

I'm not arguing "Hive Guard are better than Exocrines". I'm arguing that the barrier for effectively using multiple Tyranid elite units is points cost, not access to force org slots. I'm not sure what your thinking of when you say "proper MSU". 6 single Hive Guard are not going to do much, nor will 6 single Venomthropes. I could see spamming single Zoey's as part of some strange build that wants lots of warp charge, but other than that you want the full unit in a pod, which is close to 400 points. Point being, Hive Guard and Zoenthropes want to be in full size squads, which are expensive, so you don't get the chance to use lots of force org slots on them. Venomthropes like being alone better, but you only need so many of them, so again, you are going to move on to other units before you fill 6 slots.

On the subject of Hive Guard vs. Exocrines, the units have different roles. Exocrines kill 3+ and 2+ infantry. Hive Guard kill light/medium vehicles and light infantry. Hive Guard shouldn't be compared to Exocines, they should be compared to units that have the same role. In the current codex, that translates to dakkafexes, which are better than Hive Guard, and flyrants, which are, well, flyrants.

We obviously play in completely different setting Your "comparable units list" is completely different than mine (Dakkafexes are nothing like guards if you play Maelstrom without kill points on 3D terrain heavy tables with awfull lot of cover and not Eternal War missions on "standard tournament table". In such setting Dakkafexes are utterly useless...). I understand your points, and even agree on them if you play kill point games. They are just not applicable to what I play. So just to clear things up on "proper MSU" - Hive Guard squad split into single models can be distributed in the backfield and require three different attacks/units to be wiped out/shut down completely, while they have the option to either shoot at the same target or three different ones. So they are both more durable and versatile this way. Hope this helps to understand what I meant. Cheers!

You are very right in that we play in different settings. Given what you describe, I can see the utility of single model Hive Guard squads. I'm working on my Masters, which means I don't get a lot of free time to play 40k, so I mostly play tournaments. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I have played more games at local GT's than I have all other places combined this year. With how tournament heavy my playing is, I end up mostly playing some variant of the ITC mission pack, using 5-6 flyrants.

I'm surprised you find Dakkafexes useless. For casual games I'll often run 3 squads of 2, with 2-3 venomthropes backing them up. They do pretty well at killing light/medium infantry and light/medium vehicles and are ok durability wise.