Why is Chaos getting a bad reputation in 40k at the moment?

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**Table**

Jancoran wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally becoming "L2P" in poster form.

I literally wish you would stop pretending like getting better at the game isnt important too. Lol.

That's what i wish. I know I won't get it. Because if you attack anyone who advocates getting better, then you get away with claiming lists are all that matter. Good luck with that. I look forward to following your standings with great interest in 2017.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

Good god. What a post. Some really good info for newer chaos players such as myself. Many thanks. But if I could trouble you to know your thoughts on Warp Talons in the Talon? I know the big factor of not including them is simply you lose a raptor unit. But for those of us who love the models im not seeing a big decrease in the potency of the formation by including a unit. But id like to know your thoughts on how you would go about outfitting and using the unit in a talon. I have my general thoughts but Id love some info from a better player. And once, more thanks for the post above.

I'll share an article i wrote a long while ago about them but things HAVE changed since then so read it in that light: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/warp-talons.html

As for the current state of affairs, the Warp Talons article goes over a lot of what I would say. but the issue you have with them is the same as it ever was: cost and no grenades. The grenade thing is explained by the fact that they are Daemons in the end. So okay whatever. But this really does impact things. Cover is prolific most of the time and going second AND disorganized charge on top of it really hurts the feelings. You can also bet that the enemy will direct its attacks against the Talons first and though the 5+ invulnerable save is great against harder hitters, a lot of your targets wont kill you with any more difficulty than anything else they are used to fighting.

So the easy answer is that if you DO take them, they are less useful when attacking the same target (as you would want to do perhaps when trying to use the Formation ability) because they will be the first to take hits a lot of the time and they are more expensive.

The blinding effect is really good though and with the Dimensional Key which is tough to pull off you could make real use of Warp Talons. I view them kind of as a better unit to have jumping forward behind the Rhino wall instead of deep Striking which further takes away from what they do. After all the Rhino wall is important for Dirge Casting and giving the enemy the unenviable choice between trying to get around to the Warp Talons ooooor...killing the rhinos... I mean you can see how this creates some defense for your rhinos. Its not on paper, but target priority is a very real way for a general to protect the squishier things in a list. Once the enemy kills the first rhino for first blood as they inevitably probably will, their interest in killing rhinos lessens and their wish to kill Warp Talons increases. the question though is, are you going to take Warp Talons if that's your strategy with them? You lose some of what makes them cool on the drop that way.

Nonetheless I would perhaps deploy it normally and walk it up, forming a curtain with the rhinos to protect them. Use its eventual arrival to conicide with that of the Raptors to get the morale penalty later on, against the most important target.

Nurgle is absolutely the Mark to use for Raptors and for Warp Talons because they are going STRAIGHT into the teeth of the enemy and they are ever so good and holding the enemy in place if you make them tough. Makes sure you can get a chaos lord up there to join them. a biker lord is probably the answer there. zoom it up, wait for the drop and then join them. As both units can charge at that point, you can get Fearless. The Chaos lord is super important because he makes them fearless. Time and again this has been important. Don't underestimate it. Warp Talons i think come fearless as Daemons so they are good to go without the Chaos Lord. An Objective Secured Biker lord is pretty snazzy though... You can attack and still be contesting/taking objectives that way if he's from the Chaos Warband...

I don't know if that is what you're interested in knowing but that's my general answer.

This is exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you so much for taking the time out to type this.

**morgoth**

Buy the CSM models you love, play them with the juiced up loyalist rules if you want to stand your competitive ground.

**Gunzhard**

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
...but i flat out challenge you to find chaos space marine lists that actually use the majority of points on CSM. The only tournament competing unit/formation they even have is the sorc cabal, which is usually just tacked onto a demon or KDK list. CSM are garbage for anything outside of fun games

I still don't understand this sort of reasoning. I've been running Blood Angels for years without Tactical marines, ...most Eldar I see certainly don't have anywhere near "the majority of points on" guardians or dire avengers, or Tau with majority points of fire warriors, or Nids with majority points on guants, or really anything else in 40k right now except for SM gladius. This arguments makes NO sense at all.

That said, I get hating to lug around several books, I get holding onto the old idea of a "single codex", I understand that core CSM troops are over-costed as is much in the CSM book -- but seriously, you CAN make a competitive army with the Supplements now and further, if you want to add Forgeworld and/or Daemons (I know - "its not majority CSM!@!!!") you can still have a very fluffy/flavorful army that actually can compete on higher levels.

**ZebioLizard2**

Gunzhard wrote:
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
...but i flat out challenge you to find chaos space marine lists that actually use the majority of points on CSM. The only tournament competing unit/formation they even have is the sorc cabal, which is usually just tacked onto a demon or KDK list. CSM are garbage for anything outside of fun games

I still don't understand this sort of reasoning. I've been running Blood Angels for years without Tactical marines, ...most Eldar I see certainly don't have anywhere near "the majority of points on" guardians or dire avengers, or Tau with majority points of fire warriors, or Nids with majority points on guants, or really anything else in 40k right now except for SM gladius. This arguments makes NO sense at all.

That said, I get hating to lug around several books, I get holding onto the old idea of a "single codex", I understand that core CSM troops are over-costed as is much in the CSM book -- but seriously, you CAN make a competitive army with the Supplements now and further, if you want to add Forgeworld and/or Daemons (I know - "its not majority CSM!@!!!") you can still have a very fluffy/flavorful army that actually can compete on higher levels.

You know he's not talking about Troops right? It tends to be Cabal/Belekor, cultists, maybe the Raptor talon and then add in Daemonkin or Chaos Daemons allies. At best you'll have the Cabal/Raptors as "Actual Chaos Space Marines"

**Gunzhard**

Well when you say, "tends to be" you mean at very select Tournament settings. Also since Traitors Hate that isn't necessarily the case either.

**Insectum7**

I second everything that Jancoran said. Traitors Hate has a ton of potential, and in particular, Chaos Sorcerors got a huge boost with their new powers. Also, as a loyalist, I'm jealous of the Chaos "demi company" equivalent because of it's flexibility. I would field that all day every day if my Chaos collection were further along.

That aside, Chaos armies just look awesome. If you love the models and the background, that's the army you should play.

**Whitebeard**

Games Workshop failed their own game and their players by making regular troop choices bad. What should have been the core of an army, is now ignored for all specialist roles.

**Gunzhard**

Whitebeard wrote:
Games Workshop failed their own game and their players by making regular troop choices bad. What should have been the core of an army, is now ignored for all specialist roles.

It's true and I get what you're saying but... if they really wanted to stick closer to cannon, than IG would fight pretty much every battle from the Imperial side with only rare and minimal involvement from marines of any sort (elite or core or specialist whatever)... and we'd certainly never see Custodes. People love shiny and elite stuff.

**Jancoran**

I have no problem with whats what. I mean its being a bit idealistic to think that an army already as "elite" as Marines claim to be wouldnt have very large portions of their forces being in other than Tactical Marine roles. Tactical marines are more of a fluff fluffer unit. Its as if to say "man... if one Tactical Marine can do THAT conceptually, IMAGINE what an ASSAULT MARINE can do! hell a Damn Terminator is a natural born killah compared to all of them, its like a God in combat' and so on.

I don't see how it matters much what you put in the force as long as it's recognizably that Faction.

Chaos Marines are kind of like the lost brethren and they are in that same mold. "Imagine how crazy it is when you take this super killing Machine Tactical guy that can singlehandedly hold off a horde of hormagaunt... and give him DAEMON MAGIC!" Its a fluff fluffer here again.

the 3rd Edition Chaos codex was great. Thousand Sons had two wounds. Awesome. If they made that change right now and kept their points the same...done. Sign me up. But as they stand they are just mariens with cool guns that you pay a lot for. the Magician they get in the unit is cool but its not cool enough. I am champing at the bit to see what they do wit hthem in the new Tzeentch book. I probably won't play them a whole bunch but I am definitely going to test them out in a few games just to say i did.

Khorne Berzerkers are kinda boring and always have been but they should be at least as cool a blender as the Flayed Ones right? They aren't.

Nurgle dudes should be T5. i mean come on! fortitude is all they do.

Slaanesh is fine. Being uber fast was always their schtick. They have cool weapons and they have speed so there ya go. They were at least an okay way to go but maybe repoint their weapons a little.

Anywho, onething I likedabout Chaos Marines is they could take 20 in a unit. Now i used to use a Sisters of Battle army before 6E that had zero vehicles. just Sisters and more sisters streaming across at you and it won a lot.

When I did the Fabius Bile horde, it was equally glorious. Fabius really made those large units fun to play. 20 Chaos Marines is a load and the extra marines sort of form the "rhino" for the unit as ablative wounds. When you coupled it with stuff that could get up there quick on you and kind of take up your atention (I used to use Raptors even when they were really really expensive because fearless Hit and Run back then was BOSS) until we got there.

So I think that I have seen a 20 man Chaos Squad like once besides myself? No one does it. I would be interested to see someone actually experiment with that kind of thing and see if they could make it work again. Fabius is still good in 20 man squads even if not game breaking...

**MagicJuggler**

I generally avoid Marks, except on a few choice units. I know Mark of Nurgle is the go-to for Bike Lords, Spawn, and Obliterators, but I find use in the other bonuses too. With Traitor's Hate and the Chaos Warband in particular, I feel slightly better about giving Marks to small squads due to Path/Favored Scions allowing me to buff Champs ("why yes, I'll take Shrouded for my Bike Champ"), as well as getting a better prince with Dark Apotheosis should that happen (and inversely, helping protect my Lord/Sorcerer from inopportune transformations).

I don't like Nurgle on regular Bikers due to cost and the proliferation of attacks that circumvent toughness. Also, the Daemon Prince of Nurgle is not as annoying without Jink. It's still good on the three units that don't have any champion.

I've mentioned my appreciation for Slaanesh on Bikes, and that's before taking the Icon of Excess into account. I "could" see it being a use of leftover points for a Terminator squad that didn't use Axes, though I'd rather do Tzeentch if I really wanted to mark them.

Speaking of Tzeentch, I gave that Mark to my Lord instead of Nurgle. I found that in practice, a 3++ helps more against stuff like gravguns/melta, and S10 can be avoided with LOS. Also, the Disc makes him a Jetbike and gives an extra attack...and with the Warband, he still remains Obsec, so this let's him turbo to cap objectives, or move over enemy chaff/blockers. I'd consider a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch the second-best Prince to get Wingless, due to rerolling 1s for saving throws.

...from a more controversial position, I gave him the Scrolls of Magnus/a Spell Familiar. I generally consider this overcosted, but thought it over and said "yeah, I'd rather that than two additional Spawn." I traded some wounds/durability for an extra psychic vector. On one hand, he now costs like Ahriman/Typhus while only having one WC. On the other hand, he now a "backup" Psyker should my Sorcerer bite it. I figure I have a 50% chance of getting a usable Primaris my first time around (even Biomancy's Smite becomes somewhat worthwhile when you're BS 5), and comboing Scrolls/Scions/Path gives him the potential to snowball in power with a few opportune rolls.

**koooaei**

Jancoran wrote:

So I think that I have seen a 20 man Chaos Squad like once besides myself? No one does it. I would be interested to see someone actually experiment with that kind of thing and see if they could make it work again. Fabius is still good in 20 man squads even if not game breaking...

I've tried it recently. Huron, Sorc, Cypher. 20 MoS marines with an icon. Played against marines with pods, dreads and Calgar with cents. Sorc turned into a spawn, Huron turned into a DP and got insta-killed by a dread cause he was now a separate squad. Regular marines killed nothing across the whole game but lasted for 3 turns, so not too bad. MoS and icon was a waste - too expensive and an icon is too vulnerable when you're spread out.

I used to run something like this in 6-th edition and it was pretty good vs ig gunlines and non-melee armies overall - except for tau and eldar cause those were just too shooty and ignored cover. But now there's really not much sense in running csm without psy spam cause you can always meet wuffen, honor guards and even meganobz that'd murder marines like no big deal for half the cost. Also, marines are slow. You can just take a dogstar for cheaper - they're faster, somewhat more durable, choppier, fearless base and generate btp. Oh, and they have scout, so you don't need to take Huron.

So, from what i can tell, 20 csm can be used but they're way worse than khornedogs at doing the same thing. It's like you can run your biker lord in a unit of possessed and he'll still do stuff occasionally but he'll do more with spawns for cheaper.

If you're looking at meat for a deathstar, go with dogs, spawns or even cultists when you're dead sure you're gona get this invis and a flying ruin or soulswap. They'll be more effective most of the time.

**Jancoran**

koooaei wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

So I think that I have seen a 20 man Chaos Squad like once besides myself? No one does it. I would be interested to see someone actually experiment with that kind of thing and see if they could make it work again. Fabius is still good in 20 man squads even if not game breaking...

I've tried it recently. Huron, Sorc, Cypher. 20 MoS marines with an icon. Played against marines with pods, dreads and Calgar with cents. Sorc turned into a spawn, Huron turned into a DP and got insta-killed by a dread cause he was now a separate squad. Regular marines killed nothing across the whole game but lasted for 3 turns, so not too bad. MoS and icon was a waste - too expensive and an icon is too vulnerable when you're spread out.

I used to run something like this in 6-th edition and it was pretty good vs ig gunlines and non-melee armies overall - except for tau and eldar cause those were just too shooty and ignored cover. But now there's really not much sense in running csm without psy spam cause you can always meet wuffen, honor guards and even meganobz that'd murder marines like no big deal for half the cost. Also, marines are slow. You can just take a dogstar for cheaper - they're faster, somewhat more durable, choppier, fearless base and generate btp. Oh, and they have scout, so you don't need to take Huron.

So, from what i can tell, 20 csm can be used but they're way worse than khornedogs at doing the same thing. It's like you can run your biker lord in a unit of possessed and he'll still do stuff occasionally but he'll do more with spawns for cheaper.

If you're looking at meat for a deathstar, go with dogs, spawns or even cultists when you're dead sure you're gona get this invis and a flying ruin or soulswap. They'll be more effective most of the time.

I wasn't really comparing it to things. I just wonder how best to make that work. Like a lot of the lists I build, half the fun is seeing how far you can go with an idea. 20CSM units have always intrigued me, in particular with Fabius. I understand that bringing it to bear in melee wouldnt work with regularity. but you are still throwing 20 bolter shots plus or minus the special weapons and that isn't nothing. It's fairly large area denial. So while I cannot say that I would do such a thing with great expectations, figuring out how to make it work would be fun.

**koooaei**

Jancoran wrote:

I wasn't really comparing it to things. I just wonder how best to make that work. Like a lot of the lists I build, half the fun is seeing how far you can go with an idea. 20CSM units have always intrigued me, in particular with Fabius. I understand that bringing it to bear in melee wouldnt work with regularity. but you are still throwing 20 bolter shots plus or minus the special weapons and that isn't nothing. It's fairly large area denial. So while I cannot say that I would do such a thing with great expectations, figuring out how to make it work would be fun.

There are a few ways of doing it. The shooty one and the choppy one. The shooty one is very underwhelming nowadays but the choppy one could be fun.

The easiest way to make them work is stick Kharn and sorconclave in there. Paired with things like a flying ruin or scouting msu khornedogs, you can place a 1-st turn assault. I'd also stick Cypher in there for hit and run. Get yourself 2 meltas and full ccw. Don't bother arming sarges or giving marks to marines - it won't be worth it.

The fun unexpected one is Bile + Khornates with icon + sorconclave. They can become s8 with 4 attacks each on the charge if you get hammerhand. But they're very overpriced and still fail vs invis or re-rollable saves. But you could try to deny those with your sorcs or an allied cullexus or sisters of silence.

You could try running them in a black legion formation where they can get free fnp (and zealot?) near an apostle. You got to pay for votlw though. Could be fun if you get 1-st turn.

Or the black legion formation - Hounds of Abbaddon. They get the potential of +1 str on the charge if they roll 8+, free MoK and Waaagh! Have to pay for votlw and also a zerker tax. This formation is better for raptors imo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, i've once ran Bile + 20 mos guyz with icon + slaanesh lord on a steed in 6-th edition. It was a thematic list with noize marines in rhinos.

I was facing an ig gunline with pasknisher and buddy, 2 or 3 other russes, a bunch of uncombined platoons and aegis defense line. Lord on a steed granted outflank, so that was the way to go. t1 noize marines suffered a lot. T2 the guyz came onut and endured a lot of damage thanks to armor, cover and fnp. I was very lucky and passed 3+ like it was 2+ really. Than they proceeded to multicharge everything they could reach, slaughtering all in their way. IG were no slouches though and casualties were horrendous on both side. By the end of the game, there were just a few leftover guards here and there, a few marines - all the characters died - and a few noize marines. But the outflanking 20-man slaanesh unit made the game and csm won by a few points. Was fun.

**DarkStarSabre**

Pouncey wrote:
Buffs and nerfs come and go, but the aesthetics and the lore are fairly solid things that are unlikely to change.

Key point relating to OP here.

In the case of Chaos we've not had a consistent aesthetic for the army since 2nd edition - 2nd ed was all about ornate armour patterns with baroque trims and that was kept constant throughout.

Then along came 3rd edition with the 'new' plastic CSM which were basically imperial SM with sculpted chaos icons or trims - what was originally an army that had a very strong Mk IV, Mk V aesthetic became Mk VII with spiky bits - at odds with the Terminators still in use at the time and the metal Raptors that came out with 3.5. Even at odds with the plastic Berserkers which had a very Mk III, Mk IV aesthetic save the odd random pair of Mk VII legs.

But wait, there's more. The late 4th ed. CSM book gave us plastic raptors that looked closer to 2nd ed. CSM and Terminators that looked closer to the resculpted Imperial approach.

And then Dark Vengeance had even stranger aesthetics...and we got the cartoony dinobots.

Top it off with the fact that GW haven't had a consistent paint scheme for their studio Chaos army since the Black Legion of 3.5 and...well...

And no, they haven't.

Look at the bases for start - the 3.5 CSM had green, later brown trim with ash and static grass. The 4th ed. had bland brown bases. Then the 6th ed releases went even kookier with brown and static. They've also forgotten that they had squads designated - Chosen had gold helmets and trims - and then started getting scattered through different units randomly.

Hell, even their 'renegade' army has been through phases.

Their 4th ed. 'World Eaters' predator became a Red Corsair predator for a WD article, then a KDK predator for the KDK book and then it became a Crimson Slaughter predator. This is literally the same model with a panel being repainted on a regular basis. Heck, their KDK book is a tragedy as half the models there are either Red Corsair or Crimson Slaughter scheme with a shoulder repainted.

And yet they can afford to have 4 entirely different Eldar craftworld armies.

And they can have multiple SM chapter armies painted up.

Yet Chaos literally has to either reuse the same model in 4 different appearances or they have to dip into staff member armies (the Night Lords in the 6th ed book are a staff army).

**ChazSexington**

koooaei wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

So I think that I have seen a 20 man Chaos Squad like once besides myself? No one does it. I would be interested to see someone actually experiment with that kind of thing and see if they could make it work again. Fabius is still good in 20 man squads even if not game breaking...

I've tried it recently. Huron, Sorc, Cypher. 20 MoS marines with an icon. Played against marines with pods, dreads and Calgar with cents. Sorc turned into a spawn, Huron turned into a DP and got insta-killed by a dread cause he was now a separate squad. Regular marines killed nothing across the whole game but lasted for 3 turns, so not too bad. MoS and icon was a waste - too expensive and an icon is too vulnerable when you're spread out.

I used to run something like this in 6-th edition and it was pretty good vs ig gunlines and non-melee armies overall - except for tau and eldar cause those were just too shooty and ignored cover. But now there's really not much sense in running csm without psy spam cause you can always meet wuffen, honor guards and even meganobz that'd murder marines like no big deal for half the cost. Also, marines are slow. You can just take a dogstar for cheaper - they're faster, somewhat more durable, choppier, fearless base and generate btp. Oh, and they have scout, so you don't need to take Huron.

So, from what i can tell, 20 csm can be used but they're way worse than khornedogs at doing the same thing. It's like you can run your biker lord in a unit of possessed and he'll still do stuff occasionally but he'll do more with spawns for cheaper.

If you're looking at meat for a deathstar, go with dogs, spawns or even cultists when you're dead sure you're gona get this invis and a flying ruin or soulswap. They'll be more effective most of the time.

I run something similar. 4 Sorcerers (3 are Cyclopia Cabal) and 20 CSMs with MoS, VotLW, and IoE. The Icon helps massively, but otherwise, we have the exact same experience.

**koooaei**

Note that icons only affect models with the same marks. So, no fnp for sorcs - unless they're ~~pervs~~ MoS

**ChazSexington**

koooaei wrote:
Note that icons only affect models with the same marks. So, no fnp for sorcs - unless they're ~~pervs~~ MoS

Aye, thanks for the correction

**DarkStarSabre**

ChazSexington wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Jancoran wrote:

So I think that I have seen a 20 man Chaos Squad like once besides myself? No one does it. I would be interested to see someone actually experiment with that kind of thing and see if they could make it work again. Fabius is still good in 20 man squads even if not game breaking...

I've tried it recently. Huron, Sorc, Cypher. 20 MoS marines with an icon. Played against marines with pods, dreads and Calgar with cents. Sorc turned into a spawn, Huron turned into a DP and got insta-killed by a dread cause he was now a separate squad. Regular marines killed nothing across the whole game but lasted for 3 turns, so not too bad. MoS and icon was a waste - too expensive and an icon is too vulnerable when you're spread out.

I used to run something like this in 6-th edition and it was pretty good vs ig gunlines and non-melee armies overall - except for tau and eldar cause those were just too shooty and ignored cover. But now there's really not much sense in running csm without psy spam cause you can always meet wuffen, honor guards and even meganobz that'd murder marines like no big deal for half the cost. Also, marines are slow. You can just take a dogstar for cheaper - they're faster, somewhat more durable, choppier, fearless base and generate btp. Oh, and they have scout, so you don't need to take Huron.

So, from what i can tell, 20 csm can be used but they're way worse than khornedogs at doing the same thing. It's like you can run your biker lord in a unit of possessed and he'll still do stuff occasionally but he'll do more with spawns for cheaper.

If you're looking at meat for a deathstar, go with dogs, spawns or even cultists when you're dead sure you're gona get this invis and a flying ruin or soulswap. They'll be more effective most of the time.

I run something similar. 4 Sorcerers (3 are Cyclopia Cabal) and 20 CSMs with MoS, VotLW, and IoE. The Icon helps massively, but otherwise, we have the exact same experience.

This sums up 20 man squads. Going beyond 10 men does nothing for you. Nothing. No extra special or heavy weapons and it starts to become disproportionately more expensive with stacking costs from Marks. Furthermore, the squad loses its ability to be transported (because for some reason CSM Land Raiders are capped at 10 capacity while Imperials get access to 12/16 capacity Land Raider variants. Thanks GW), takes up a bigger footprint and pretty much becomes harder to tuck away into safety.

Now, if we got say, 1 special weapon per 5 CSM and the option of 1 heavy per 10 CSM then bigger blobs might pick up some value. Or, if we got 30k rules like the Tacticals have then maybe we would see bigger CSM units....

But really, nah. We have no reward for going beyond 10 men. Paying 30 points for a marked unit is already pricy, especially when you figure that if we want our army special rule equivalent and want to kit them up we're adding another 20 points on top....doubling that? Well, that's just silly. That's half the cost of another unit right there.

**NightWinds5121**

The problem isn't with chaos, it is that many other factions have units that greatly over perform for their point cost

**Kaiyanwang**

NightWinds5121 wrote:
The problem isn't with chaos, it is that many other factions have units that greatly over perform for their point cost

No is both. Proof: internal balance. If points were assigned carefully, people would have no problem in choosing, say, Thousand Sons (lol) over Plague Marines. Instead out of 4 cults, 1 works properly, one is meh, one is ignored in his own other book in favour of a bunch of dogs, and one is in a new shiny book just to show what utter failure the current GW design is.

**Bach**

What makes Chaos Marines feel like crap is that they have the Champion of Chaos Boon table gimmick that is generally weaksauce and doesn't provide that much of a material benefit when compared to the gimmicks of other codexes. Traitor's Hate helps out but the Boon table idea, as our gimmick, fundamentally isn't on comparative footing with other codexes. Also there aren't many stand out units that are competitive either. Units feel ridiculously overpriced as well, which doesn't help...Defiler anyone?

Even with these deficiencies, I still play and love them. Aesthetically mostly. When playing, both players should have an understanding of where their codex and army stands and there should be no doubt that playing CSM makes you a considerable under dog. At least take solace in knowing that a win with a CSM army is a bigger deal than winning with Eldar, Necrons, SM, Tau, etc.

**DarkStarSabre**

Bach wrote:
What makes Chaos Marines feel like crap is that they have the Champion of Chaos Boon table gimmick that is generally weaksauce and doesn't provide that much of a material benefit when compared to the gimmicks of other codexes. Traitor's Hate helps out but the Boon table idea, as our gimmick, fundamentally isn't on comparative footing with other codexes. Also there aren't many stand out units that are competitive either. Units feel ridiculously overpriced as well, which doesn't help...Defiler anyone?

Even with these deficiencies, I still play and love them. Aesthetically mostly. When playing, both players should have an understanding of where their codex and army stands and there should be no doubt that playing CSM makes you a considerable under dog. At least take solace in knowing that a win with a CSM army is a bigger deal than winning with Eldar, Necrons, SM, Tau, etc.

The Boon table is part of the reason Chaos is overpriced across the board and it infuriates me.

We're pointed on the assumption that we will get appropriate rewards from the Boon table - almost as though the designers didn't see the fact that the dud results are oh so prevailent (Oh boy, Shred on my Lightning Claws. Sigh. +1 BS and I have no ranged weapons. +1 Initiative.....on a power fist. Thanks.)

Even worse, our closest mirror can pick half the results as wargear or get half them as default kit and still somehow cost less points.

**ZebioLizard2**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Bach wrote:
What makes Chaos Marines feel like crap is that they have the Champion of Chaos Boon table gimmick that is generally weaksauce and doesn't provide that much of a material benefit when compared to the gimmicks of other codexes. Traitor's Hate helps out but the Boon table idea, as our gimmick, fundamentally isn't on comparative footing with other codexes. Also there aren't many stand out units that are competitive either. Units feel ridiculously overpriced as well, which doesn't help...Defiler anyone?

Even with these deficiencies, I still play and love them. Aesthetically mostly. When playing, both players should have an understanding of where their codex and army stands and there should be no doubt that playing CSM makes you a considerable under dog. At least take solace in knowing that a win with a CSM army is a bigger deal than winning with Eldar, Necrons, SM, Tau, etc.

The Boon table is part of the reason Chaos is overpriced across the board and it infuriates me.

We're pointed on the assumption that we will get appropriate rewards from the Boon table - almost as though the designers didn't see the fact that the dud results are oh so prevailent (Oh boy, Shred on my Lightning Claws. Sigh. +1 BS and I have no ranged weapons. +1 Initiative.....on a power fist. Thanks.)

Even worse, our closest mirror can pick half the results as wargear or get half them as default kit and still somehow cost less points.

Even worse is that the Boon Table was a testbed for Warriors of Chaos which ended up with a BETTER boon table as a result (Able to resist going chaos spawn on a LD, DP's did not lose items, all the other results are stat boosts, Abbadon's counterpart could never become a spawn)

**Insectum7**

koooaei wrote:
There are a few ways of doing it. The shooty one and the choppy one. The shooty one is very underwhelming nowadays but the choppy one could be fun.

The easiest way to make them work is stick Kharn and sorconclave in there. Paired with things like a flying ruin or scouting msu khornedogs, you can place a 1-st turn assault. I'd also stick Cypher in there for hit and run. Get yourself 2 meltas and full ccw. Don't bother arming sarges or giving marks to marines - it won't be worth it.

The fun unexpected one is Bile + Khornates with icon + sorconclave. They can become s8 with 4 attacks each on the charge if you get hammerhand. But they're very overpriced and still fail vs invis or re-rollable saves. But you could try to deny those with your sorcs or an allied cullexus or sisters of silence.

You could try running them in a black legion formation where they can get free fnp (and zealot?) near an apostle. You got to pay for votlw though. Could be fun if you get 1-st turn.

Or the black legion formation - Hounds of Abbaddon. They get the potential of +1 str on the charge if they roll 8+, free MoK and Waaagh! Have to pay for votlw and also a zerker tax. This formation is better for raptors imo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, i've once ran Bile + 20 mos guyz with icon + slaanesh lord on a steed in 6-th edition. It was a thematic list with noize marines in rhinos.

I was facing an ig gunline with pasknisher and buddy, 2 or 3 other russes, a bunch of uncombined platoons and aegis defense line. Lord on a steed granted outflank, so that was the way to go. t1 noize marines suffered a lot. T2 the guyz came onut and endured a lot of damage thanks to armor, cover and fnp. I was very lucky and passed 3+ like it was 2+ really. Than they proceeded to multicharge everything they could reach, slaughtering all in their way. IG were no slouches though and casualties were horrendous on both side. By the end of the game, there were just a few leftover guards here and there, a few marines - all the characters died - and a few noize marines. But the outflanking 20-man slaanesh unit made the game and csm won by a few points. Was fun.

These are all cool ideas. I've been dusting off some old Chaos models and I'm looking at giving the 20-man-mob a go. I'm leaning towards the Mark of Slaneesh and the banner for I5 and FNP, but I'm going to see how the new Legions book pans out. I just finished repairing 20 odd Berzerkers from 1999(?), the generic CSMs are next.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

SaltySeaDog wrote:
I'm a newcomer to 40k & this forum, so apologies for my painfully novice questions...I asked previously about building up my first 40k army, using Kill Team as a stepping stone to understanding the game & the 'Get Started!' pack as my foundation for the army itself.

I wanted to field CSM as I like the lore & the models- but after doing some initial research, it seems that CSM aren't popular right now, are going through some sort of 'rough patch' in the evolution of the rules, and even have many poor unit choices compared to other armies. In brief, I feel like their glory days are passed and (for the time being, at least) they've been overtaken by others. Is this accurate?

So, bearing in mind I'm a total beginner, should I grit my teeth & carry on with my plan of collecting CSM? Or would it be wise for me to think about plan B (loyalist marines, most likely Ultramarines or another 'vanilla' chapter)?

Just don't want to waste time & money on an army that isn't good to play as a newbie, or is likely going to be totally overhauled in the near future.

Thanks!

Okay first things first. Ignore stuff like this

Pouncey wrote:
When it comes to selecting your army that you will invest your time into, do not concern yourself whatsoever with how powerful an army is. Select the army you like the most, by the criteria you use to determine your personal preferences. This can be the looks of the models, the background lore of the faction, literally anything whatsoever that you consider most important for your army to have, except how powerful it is.

For lack of a better phrase, it's unthought out. Figure out what you want from this game. That should be your first step. If your a competitive person (like I am) then the power level of the army is important, since being able to win will determine how much fun you will have in this game. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying winning is the most important thing, but losing every game wares thin very fast, and when you see the opposing players start to modify their army so that you can have a chance at winning, that is when its time to stop. It is not fair for your opponents to have to build a weak army that they don't want to field so that you can have a chance to win.

So after you have decided how often you need to win (Never, 25%, 33%, 75%) THEN look at the lore, the aesthetics are irrelevant, you can proxy any model for just about anything. I can use TS to represent SW if I want so long as my opponent agrees, and most people don't care as long as you have some defining marks on them to let you know what they are. You can literally paint them any color you want. Just after starting some 16 years ago, when I was 16, I found my Guard army opposite the "Glitter Boys" which was a Neon Pink/Light Pink color scheme SM Chapter that has literal glitter sprinkled on them. You can color the army however you want.

Now, if you can square yourself with rarely winning, with most of the rules written in favor of the opposing army, having to pay more points for less models, then CSM is your army. CSM is for people that want to be challenged in every way, where even your "areas of advantage" can utterly fail you and you can and will end up losing 200+ point models to your own rules. You will be driven to your breaking point and beyond you will have to scheme and plot to figure out ways to do simple tasks, you will learn every single rule by heart so that you don't miss a single beat, because if you do you will lose, you will be forced to think about things that other players will never think about, because they don't need to. You will twist simple spells that have simple uses every way humanly possible in your mind to try and get a use out of them that others will never consider, you will take units and do things with them that no one ever considered, because you will have to. In short if you want easy mode, go with Vanilla marines, if you want hard mode, go with CSM.

**Toastedandy**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
SaltySeaDog wrote:
I'm a newcomer to 40k & this forum, so apologies for my painfully novice questions...I asked previously about building up my first 40k army, using Kill Team as a stepping stone to understanding the game & the 'Get Started!' pack as my foundation for the army itself.

I wanted to field CSM as I like the lore & the models- but after doing some initial research, it seems that CSM aren't popular right now, are going through some sort of 'rough patch' in the evolution of the rules, and even have many poor unit choices compared to other armies. In brief, I feel like their glory days are passed and (for the time being, at least) they've been overtaken by others. Is this accurate?

So, bearing in mind I'm a total beginner, should I grit my teeth & carry on with my plan of collecting CSM? Or would it be wise for me to think about plan B (loyalist marines, most likely Ultramarines or another 'vanilla' chapter)?

Just don't want to waste time & money on an army that isn't good to play as a newbie, or is likely going to be totally overhauled in the near future.

Thanks!

Okay first things first. Ignore stuff like this

Pouncey wrote:
When it comes to selecting your army that you will invest your time into, do not concern yourself whatsoever with how powerful an army is. Select the army you like the most, by the criteria you use to determine your personal preferences. This can be the looks of the models, the background lore of the faction, literally anything whatsoever that you consider most important for your army to have, except how powerful it is.

For lack of a better phrase, it's unthought out. Figure out what you want from this game. That should be your first step. If your a competitive person (like I am) then the power level of the army is important, since being able to win will determine how much fun you will have in this game. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying winning is the most important thing, but losing every game wares thin very fast, and when you see the opposing players start to modify their army so that you can have a chance at winning, that is when its time to stop. It is not fair for your opponents to have to build a weak army that they don't want to field so that you can have a chance to win.

So after you have decided how often you need to win (Never, 25%, 33%, 75%) THEN look at the lore, the aesthetics are irrelevant, you can proxy any model for just about anything. I can use TS to represent SW if I want so long as my opponent agrees, and most people don't care as long as you have some defining marks on them to let you know what they are. You can literally paint them any color you want. Just after starting some 16 years ago, when I was 16, I found my Guard army opposite the "Glitter Boys" which was a Neon Pink/Light Pink color scheme SM Chapter that has literal glitter sprinkled on them. You can color the army however you want.

Now, if you can square yourself with rarely winning, with most of the rules written in favor of the opposing army, having to pay more points for less models, then CSM is your army. CSM is for people that want to be challenged in every way, where even your "areas of advantage" can utterly fail you and you can and will end up losing 200+ point models to your own rules. You will be driven to your breaking point and beyond you will have to scheme and plot to figure out ways to do simple tasks, you will learn every single rule by heart so that you don't miss a single beat, because if you do you will lose, you will be forced to think about things that other players will never think about, because they don't need to. You will twist simple spells that have simple uses every way humanly possible in your mind to try and get a use out of them that others will never consider, you will take units and do things with them that no one ever considered, because you will have to. In short if you want easy mode, go with Vanilla marines, if you want hard mode, go with CSM.

I DISAGREE!

I started with Black Templars way back in 3rd edition, and moved to Chaos in 4th edition, so I've been playing with large squads of assaulty power armour lads for a long time, and I am of the unpopular opinion that CSM can indeed win games. I win about 80% of the games I play with CSM through experience and knowing my armies weakness's and strengths. (Although I do struggle with some Necron armies) I have over 4000pts of death guard, 2000pts of Iron Warriors and about 1000pts of Night Lords

I found that the key with CSM is synergy and teamwork and taking the initiative, its very easy to spend too much on one squad or monster lord, and very tempting. Cultists are almost a must have in every list I play, the tactical versitility that they enable, allow your key units to perform optimally. This is key! don't let your expensive units go to waste. Having a stationary 10 man squad just to fire a heavy weapon is too wasteful. Min-Max your special and heavy weapons, maximize each units specialty and take the fight your opponent and deny them any space and you will do well.

Okay first things first. Ignore stuff like this

Pouncey wrote:
When it comes to selecting your army that you will invest your time into, do not concern yourself whatsoever with how powerful an army is. Select the army you like the most, by the criteria you use to determine your personal preferences. This can be the looks of the models, the background lore of the faction, literally anything whatsoever that you consider most important for your army to have, except how powerful it is.

I know people are in this hobby for all sorts of different reasons, BUT, I don't understand why you want people to ignore this opinion. Its an expensive hobby, so why not but the models you like the look of? When I play I want to win, but I'll never buy a piss ugly model (I'm looking at you heldrake) just so I can win a board game.

The rules may fluctuate like the warp, but at least you'll have some pretty awesome looking models.

Chaos is best. Ignore Imperial propaganda!

ToastedAndy
The Grand Warpsmith of the most Putrid Tide

**morgoth**

Toastedandy wrote:

I DISAGREE!

I started with Black Templars way back in 3rd edition, and moved to Chaos in 4th edition, so I've been playing with large squads of assaulty power armour lads for a long time, and I am of the unpopular opinion that CSM can indeed win games. I win about 80% of the games I play with CSM through experience and knowing my armies weakness's and strengths. (Although I do struggle with some Necron armies) I have over 4000pts of death guard, 2000pts of Iron Warriors and about 1000pts of Night Lords

You're probably playing against Dark Eldar or Flyrant-less Tyranids then - or maybe just players not actually trying to win.

**Toastedandy**

morgoth wrote:
Toastedandy wrote:

I DISAGREE!

I started with Black Templars way back in 3rd edition, and moved to Chaos in 4th edition, so I've been playing with large squads of assaulty power armour lads for a long time, and I am of the unpopular opinion that CSM can indeed win games. I win about 80% of the games I play with CSM through experience and knowing my armies weakness's and strengths. (Although I do struggle with some Necron armies) I have over 4000pts of death guard, 2000pts of Iron Warriors and about 1000pts of Night Lords

You're probably playing against Dark Eldar or Flyrant-less Tyranids then - or maybe just players not actually trying to win.

Negative dismissal, classic
Well actually.......... With csm I've placed second in one tournament, first in three, placed top three in the games workshop campaigns while I attended the store. I've played against all but the rarest fw lists. Brought gods to heel and enslaved whole generations. I am the alpha and omega, the end of man :p

Maybe, I know my army inside and out, maybe I've played enough games to tell the outcome of most conflicts and act accordingly.

**Jancoran**

morgoth wrote:
Toastedandy wrote:

I DISAGREE!

I started with Black Templars way back in 3rd edition, and moved to Chaos in 4th edition, so I've been playing with large squads of assaulty power armour lads for a long time, and I am of the unpopular opinion that CSM can indeed win games. I win about 80% of the games I play with CSM through experience and knowing my armies weakness's and strengths. (Although I do struggle with some Necron armies) I have over 4000pts of death guard, 2000pts of Iron Warriors and about 1000pts of Night Lords

You're probably playing against Dark Eldar or Flyrant-less Tyranids then - or maybe just players not actually trying to win.

Not cool. I am sure he plays all kinds of things in that much time. Lets not go after his opponents when you dont know them.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Toastedandy wrote:
morgoth wrote:
Toastedandy wrote:

I DISAGREE!

I started with Black Templars way back in 3rd edition, and moved to Chaos in 4th edition, so I've been playing with large squads of assaulty power armour lads for a long time, and I am of the unpopular opinion that CSM can indeed win games. I win about 80% of the games I play with CSM through experience and knowing my armies weakness's and strengths. (Although I do struggle with some Necron armies) I have over 4000pts of death guard, 2000pts of Iron Warriors and about 1000pts of Night Lords

You're probably playing against Dark Eldar or Flyrant-less Tyranids then - or maybe just players not actually trying to win.

Negative dismissal, classic
Well actually.......... With csm I've placed second in one tournament, first in three, placed top three in the games workshop campaigns while I attended the store. I've played against all but the rarest fw lists. Brought gods to heel and enslaved whole generations. I am the alpha and omega, the end of man :p

Maybe, I know my army inside and out, maybe I've played enough games to tell the outcome of most conflicts and act accordingly.

What tournaments? When were these tournaments? Provide links. Not mention in the course of a little more than a decade you were able to place top 3 in 4 tournaments? Lastly what are you running to place in these tournaments?

Are you saying it's not possible that the people you play against are terrible? Or that they are not building their lists so that you can win? My cousin plays SW he and I play just about every weekend and after a while he stopped bringing his TWC because they would just steam roll my army and there was little I could do about it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toastedandy wrote:
I know people are in this hobby for all sorts of different reasons, BUT, I don't understand why you want people to ignore this opinion. Its an expensive hobby, so why not but the models you like the look of? When I play I want to win, but I'll never buy a piss ugly model (I'm looking at you heldrake) just so I can win a board game.

The rules may fluctuate like the warp, but at least you'll have some pretty awesome looking models.

Chaos is best. Ignore Imperial propaganda!

ToastedAndy
The Grand Warpsmith of the most Putrid Tide

Did you even read the post?

Im saying he should figure out what matters the most to him and move forward from there. Picking something based on what other people deem the "most important factor" is stupid. Nothing stops him from kitbashing his own models so the look the way he wants. Picking the rules he likes so he can play the army the way he wants makes way more sense because he CAN CHANGE THEM he CAN'T CHANGE THE fething RULES.

Here is an example you want to buy a door, you can pick based on what it is made out of, or you can pick based on what color it is. Which criteria do you use to pick? You pick based on what you want the door to do NOT what it looks like because you can paint the damn door any color you want.