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I was just wondering what stats and rules people think the Angel will receive.

Some important things to consider
Spear of telesto or blade encarmine? What stats for them?
How will his wings help him? Some people say it should be an 18" move like a bike, some just say jp and some say he should be able to vector strike. Thoughts?
Should he be a repressed psyker ML1 or just have a corbulo reroll like abilty?
His ranged weapon? If he has the spear of telesto it could work as a flamer or a throwing weapon.
How should he buff the army?

My personal opinion is this

WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:7 A:5 LD:10 Sv:2+4++ Pts: 500

CCW: The Sanguine Blade is an AP2 1+S, MC, two handed power sword that strikes at initiative.

Ranged Weapon: The Angelus Perdition is a 6" pistol with the melta USR that works at 6". As an Angelus weapon, it allows him to easily wield his blade in two hands.


Special Rules:

Fury Unbound: This is Lemartes special rule. When he receives his first wound he gets +1A and +1S

The Far Seeing Eye: Once per game, Sanguinius may reroll any die he chooses.

The Red Thirst: Sanguinius knew about and suffered from the red thirst before any of his sons. (He flew into a rage and slew a tribe of mutants when they attacked his people) This confers 1+I on the turn Sanguinius charges into combat.

Furious Charge: The Blood Angels were the best shock troops in the Imperium. Sanguinius receives +1A and +1S in the turn he charges into combat.

Only Angels Should Fly: Sanguinius' wings count as a Jump Pack and allow him and the unit he joins perfectly accurate deep striking

Virtues of the Sons: Sanguinius felt the deaths of his sons more keenly than any of his brother primarchs. If one Blood Angel unit is destroyed, roll a D6. On a roll of a 6+, Sanguinius cannot handle the pain and takes an automatic wound with no saves of any kind at all. If two units are destoyed in the same turn, he succumbs to the pain on a 5+, if three units are destoyed in the same turns he succumbs on a 4+. If more than three units are destroyed in one turn, Sanguinius cannot handle the pain and falls unconscious and is removed as a casualty. He may reawaken on the role of a 6+ at the start of each of your turns and no longer counts as a casualty.

Sins of the Father: When making "Virtues of the Sons" rolls, on a roll of a 1, sanguinius flies into a rage and gains the Rage, Relentless, Rampage and FNP special rules for the rest of the turn.

My Brother, My Enemy: Horus respected Sanguinius more than any other before the Heresy and feared more than any other during it. Against armies that possess the Warmaster, Sanguinius gains the Preffered Enemy special rule.

We Shall Descend On Wings Of Fire: Sanguinius is always the warlord and confers Descent of Angels to all jump, skimmer and flyer units with the Blood Angels Legions Astartes special rules. He may reroll all reserve rolls and gives storm of angels and rolls for reserves on turn one.

Wrath of the Angel: Like his sons, Sanguinius always wounds on a role of one less then would have been necessary.

The Primarch Rule



So what do you think? Feel free to rip it apart if it's crap lol. I've had some people say it's OP but I mean, it's Sanguinius amirite? xD Tried to make it as fluffy as possible

Forgot to say, post your own stats too I'd be really interested to see your opinions too

Considering a rule called "Heroic/Honourable Sacrifice" Or "Acceptance of Fate" - Sanguinius sees the only way to achieve victory is to send himself against a superior foe to slow their advance. If he falls, All Blood Angels unit gain the Relentless rule (maybe rage, rampage, relentless, fnp or a mix of them or just one? what do you think?)

Give him ws9, put him up there with Russ and Angron!
WS:9 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:7 A:6 LD:10 Sv:2+4++

MC paragon blade and inferno pistol

When he arrives from deepstrike he can choose any turn and doesn't scatter. Also when he arrives, after placing him but before placing his squad, place a large blast over his head, all other units under the blast take a S9 AP2 hit with pinning.

Winged: he can choose to move like an eldar jetbike or a flying monstrous creature

The angel: All friendly armies of the imperium have fearless while he's on the table.

The rage: if he dies all blood angels gain rage, FNP, relentless and fearless but become non scoring.

Don't like your virtues of the Sons and sins of our fathers thing, seems mean and excessive. In fear to tread he blacks out due to a whole company being killed instantly by a bloodthirster wielding a slaaneshi axe. Now if this happens in game fair enough but nah.

Mine needs more padding but it's the way I'd go with it

Cassor the Damned wrote:
I was just wondering what stats and rules people think the Angel will receive.

Some important things to consider
Spear of telesto or blade encarmine? What stats for them?
How will his wings help him? Some people say it should be an 18" move like a bike, some just say jp and some say he should be able to vector strike. Thoughts?
Should he be a repressed psyker ML1 or just have a corbulo reroll like abilty?
His ranged weapon? If he has the spear of telesto it could work as a flamer or a throwing weapon.
How should he buff the army?

My personal opinion is this

WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:7 A:5 LD:10 Sv:2+4++ Pts: 500

CCW: The Sanguine Blade is an AP2 1+S, MC, two handed power sword that strikes at initiative.

Ranged Weapon: The Angelus Perdition is a 6" pistol with the melta USR that works at 6". As an Angelus weapon, it allows him to easily wield his blade in two hands.


Special Rules:

Fury Unbound: This is Lemartes special rule. When he receives his first wound he gets +1A and +1S

The Far Seeing Eye: Once per game, Sanguinius may reroll any die he chooses.

The Red Thirst: Sanguinius knew about and suffered from the red thirst before any of his sons. (He flew into a rage and slew a tribe of mutants when they attacked his people) This confers 1+I on the turn Sanguinius charges into combat.

Furious Charge: The Blood Angels were the best shock troops in the Imperium. Sanguinius receives +1A and +1S in the turn he charges into combat.

Only Angels Should Fly: Sanguinius' wings count as a Jump Pack and allow him and the unit he joins perfectly accurate deep striking

Virtues of the Sons: Sanguinius felt the deaths of his sons more keenly than any of his brother primarchs. If one Blood Angel unit is destroyed, roll a D6. On a roll of a 6+, Sanguinius cannot handle the pain and takes an automatic wound with no saves of any kind at all. If two units are destoyed in the same turn, he succumbs to the pain on a 5+, if three units are destoyed in the same turns he succumbs on a 4+. If more than three units are destroyed in one turn, Sanguinius cannot handle the pain and falls unconscious and is removed as a casualty. He may reawaken on the role of a 6+ at the start of each of your turns and no longer counts as a casualty.

Sins of the Father: When making "Virtues of the Sons" rolls, on a roll of a 1, sanguinius flies into a rage and gains the Rage, Relentless, Rampage and FNP special rules for the rest of the turn.

My Brother, My Enemy: Horus respected Sanguinius more than any other before the Heresy and feared more than any other during it. Against armies that possess the Warmaster, Sanguinius gains the Preffered Enemy special rule.

We Shall Descend On Wings Of Fire: Sanguinius is always the warlord and confers Descent of Angels to all jump, skimmer and flyer units with the Blood Angels Legions Astartes special rules. He may reroll all reserve rolls and gives storm of angels and rolls for reserves on turn one.

Wrath of the Angel: Like his sons, Sanguinius always wounds on a role of one less then would have been necessary.

The Primarch Rule



So what do you think? Feel free to rip it apart if it's crap lol. I've had some people say it's OP but I mean, it's Sanguinius amirite? xD Tried to make it as fluffy as possible

Forgot to say, post your own stats too I'd be really interested to see your opinions too

Considering a rule called "Heroic/Honourable Sacrifice" Or "Acceptance of Fate" - Sanguinius sees the only way to achieve victory is to send himself against a superior foe to slow their advance. If he falls, All Blood Angels unit gain the Relentless rule (maybe rage, rampage, relentless, fnp or a mix of them or just one? what do you think?)

I tried to do something similar For Russ not so long ago and quickly came to the conclusion that I would make a horrible game designer but I did learn a couple of lessons. For example try not to clutter the special rules with needless additions. In my opinion you would be better off removing Fury Unbound and The Red Thirst and simply alter his stats to give him 1+I and 1+A normally.

Giving him a stat line of WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:8 A:6 LD:10 SV:2+4++

Furious charge seems a bit out of place especially when you add in Wrath of Angels which already grants him an improved too wound roll. I would be ok with one but not both at the same time.

We shall Descend on Wings of fire seems a bit strong. In my opinion granting Descent of Angels to all jump, skimmer and flyers would probably be enough.

My Brother, My Enemy should be more focused and not grant such a wide bonus. Preferred Enemy (Horus/Sons of Horus) would be better in my opinion.

I feel that people want him to be the ultimate beat-stick but I would prefer to see more emphases put upon his more charismatic and inspiring quality’s.

This incarnation has far more rules than any of the other Primarchs in 30K. And some are overlapping/complicated.

Your stats seem about right.

I'd say Furious Charge, Hammer of Wrath, Preferred Enemy: Traitor Legions, and Hatred: Sons of Horus

Virtues of the Sons and Sins of the Father- way too clunky and complicated. This is also a rule that could remove your 500 Primarch from the table before he even gets to do anything. It's also one of those rules that opponent's tend to "forget" if you know what I mean.

His wings should basically be a Jump Pack, and all units equipped with Jump Packs in his army should be able to re-roll reserve rolls. Veteran and Command Squads should get a Jump Pack option. Any Jump Pack unit Sanguinious joins can choose which turn they arrive from Deep Strike and do not scatter.

I like the once per game reroll any die. Where his psychic abilities ever shown/manifested beyond his supposed seeing the future ability?

Not sure on the Red Thirst. I'd say more like "After Sang destroys a model/unit, roll a d6: on a 6, he succumbs to the Red Thirst and gains +1S +1I +1A for the rest of the game.

I'd say Master Crafted Paragon Blade, and his sidearm a MC Infernus pistol.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I definetly see what you mean about the special rules. When i actually look back there really is a lot. I see where your coming from with virues of the son/sins of the father too, I guess I just wanted a rule which showed the character and personality of sanguinius. I agree with the ws9 as he was in the top 3 combat primarchs but I think if he had ws9 he would just beat everyone without a problem xD Also, I didn't want him to just come under the "beatstick" category and feel like ws9 would have done that. I've tried to make him as tactical as possible for a legion that basicaly likes punching people in the face xD Tbh, I kinda liked the Fury Unbound. I think it was very representitve of the BA chapter because part of our fluff and crunch is the harder they hit us the harder we hit back. Like the fury undound rule on lemartes and when in angel blade half a squad gets destroyed, that squad gets hatred. However, there are alot of rules and I'd say this one is probably the least imprtant so I think i'll get rid of it. Really really really like the idea of him causing a shockwave when he lands. Thinks S9 AP2 might be abit strong though because Vulkan smites the ground with a mcHUEG hammer and only gets a S8 AP3. I think S6 AP2 would be the best you could ask for. I decided against Hit and Run because Sanguinius strikes me as the type of Warrior who would rather stand and fight then run to gain a tactical advantage. I think a way to make his rules more concise and still represent BA fluff might be:

WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 A:6 I:7 W:6 LD:10 Sv: 2+/4++

Wargear:

Wings of Fire: Sanguinius' was said to fear what his wings meant, and so put them to murderous effect against the traitors to prove his loyalty. Sanguinius' wings count as a Jump pack and mean he does not scatter when deeptriking and may charge out of reserves as well as causing a S6 AP2 small blast when he deepstrikes.

Infernus Pistol (Angelus)

The Perdition Blade: MC paragon Blade


USR

The Red Thirst: Sanguinius suffered from the Red Thirst more than any of his sons and felt the effects long before the Horus Heresy. Sanguinius gains +1 initatve, attacks and strength on the charge.

Far Seeing Eye: The Primarchs fabled sight helped his legion snatch victory from the jaws of defeat several times. Once per game, Sanguinius may reroll any die he chooses.

My Brother, My Enemy: Sanguinius is said to have flew into a rage and attacked his own Captain when he suggested Horus was a Traitor. Upon learning the truth, Sanguinius swore revenge would be his. Sanguinius has Preffered Enemy: Horus Lupercal.

Only Angels Should Fly: The Blood Angels were famed for their fast and accurate deep striking. Under Sanguinius reign, they truly were the Angels of Death. Sanguinius can reroll both enemy and ally reserve rolls whether they fail or succeed and gives all jump, flier and skimmer units descent of angels and confers descent of angels to drop pods.

The Primarch Rule:

Blood Angels Legiones Astartes: Sanguinius was a God of Battle and placed his blows with inhuman accuracy to strike the weakest part of his foe's armour. Sanguinius wounds on a -1 less strength then would have been neccesary.

The Black Rage: Upon Sanguinius' death, the Blood Angels flew into a range and single handedly drove the traitors from Terra. When Sanguinius falls, all Blood Angels gain Rage, Relentless, Furious Charge, Fearless but become non-scoring.



Hope this is more concise, he only really has 5 Unique rules that effect him as Every Primarch has the Primarch Rule and their Legions Legion Tactic. With these rules, he sould only struggle against Fulgrim, Horus and possibly Perutuarbo.

In fear to tread its said that he landed with the force of a vindicator barrage! And cmon ws9!

I do agree he should be a ws9 model, but when they made angron a ws9 model they gave him a 3+ save and only gave him 5 wounds, if sangy was to maintain his good wargear and survivability as well as ws9, we'd be looking at the most expensive primarch only usable in 2500+ games

One of the guys who works at my local gw seemed to think these are going to be the rules he ends up with.


Can't get the other image to post so I'll write up the explanations of the stuff on this page.
Sire of the Blood Angels:
Crusader and must issue and accept challenges when a potential opponent is Ws5 or more.
Also let's blood angels reroll ld checks while he's on the board.

Clairvoyance:
When at half wounds, roll a dice at the start of each assault phase. On a 4+ all blood angels gain rage and the red thirst until the next assault phase.

Ill Fated:
At the start of each turn, roll a D6. On a 1 he and his unit l can't assault. They still fight back if assaulted.

Sanguinary Honour Guard:
Gets a free 5 man unit of sanguinary guard from the BAngels codex which doesn't take a force organisation slot. They can upgrade as normal in the codex. One gets nominated to be Azkaelon. He becomes a character and gets +1 Ws/W/A, plus an iron halo, however he is stuck with a sword.

Wings of Sanguinius:
Makes him jump infantry and let's him and his unit charge 3D6. Doesn't stack with other char bonuses and doesn't let them charge T1.

The Blade Encarmine;
S+2, Ap2, Melee, Master Crafted, Soulblaze, Bane of Ka'bandha (Reroll to wound and pen against daemons)

Spear of Telesto;
Sx2 Ap2 Melee, Concussive Specialist Weapon
Can also be used as a ranged weapon.
Template S5 Ap3 Assault 1, Torrent, Genetic Purge (can be placed over friendly models and doesn't affect BAngels.)

He can only use one of his two weapons each turn.

Armour of the Great Angel:
2+ Armour Save

Eye of Blood:
3++ Invun

 snykyninja wrote:
One of the guys who works at my local gw seemed to think these are going to be the rules he ends up with.

Isn’t that the same stat line as Horus

I don’t think he should have S7, that’s normally reserved for the big bulky and more importantly slow primarchs which Sanguinius really isn’t. I mean if Russ didn’t get to be S7 I just don’t see Sanguinius getting it.

I agree with the strength issue, the Blood Angels place emphasis on speed rather then strength and I can see that being reflected in Sanguinius' fighting style. I think I saw those stats around a year ago on the bell of lost souls website, they look good but a little op in terms of wargear and special rules imho

Cassor the Damned wrote:
I agree with the strength issue, the Blood Angels place emphasis on speed rather then strength and I can see that being reflected in Sanguinius' fighting style. I think I saw those stats around a year ago on the bell of lost souls website, they look good but a little op in terms of wargear and special rules imho

I felt the same way when I realised his sword puts him at S9. Maybe drop him down to S6 and drop the sword to S+1? Then he could have +1I or maybe the red thirst?

I kind of expect he'll look like Fulgrim with wings. Fast, skilled, but as strong and as tough as the average primarch.

Just as a remark from a game developer stand point: Less is more, and if there is already a rule in the game, don't make a new version of it.

You guys are giving him too many special rules and too much Wargear compared to the other Primarchs.

As a side note, you could give him initiative 10, but it's going to be useless when he tries to assault someone in cover. He should have at least Frag Grenades, if not something that allows him to assault into cover. Which is more wargear to add...

If you look through the other Primarchs, when they had the option of two weapons, both were pretty tricked out but in different ways.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Just as a remark from a game developer stand point: Less is more, and if there is already a rule in the game, don't make a new version of it.

You guys are giving him too many special rules and too much Wargear compared to the other Primarchs.

As a side note, you could give him initiative 10, but it's going to be useless when he tries to assault someone in cover. He should have at least Frag Grenades, if not something that allows him to assault into cover. Which is more wargear to add...

If you look through the other Primarchs, when they had the option of two weapons, both were pretty tricked out but in different ways.

I'm just looking at his wargear and rules and trying to figure out what to drop. Most primarchs seem to have a Sire of the Legion rule, plus one or two others and three or four items of wargear, including their armor. I'm thinking maybe consolidate the armor and the Eye of Blood into a single set of armor that provides 2+/3++. Let him keep his sword as I said before, but only S+1. Have the spear lose it's melee profile or make the template one use. Have his wings count as an item of wargear that makes him jump infantry and let's him charge through terrain. Lose the free honour guard. Drop his strength down to 6 and give him I7/8, maybe give him +1I on the charge? He should definitely be WS8/9. Any thoughts on these suggestions or on what to do with his special rules?

Why a 3++ and not 4++? 3++ seems reserved for the more tech-head or tougher primarchs, not the beat-stick primarchs.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why a 3++ and not 4++? 3++ seems reserved for the more tech-head or tougher primarchs, not the beat-stick primarchs.

I feel that sanguinius of all people deserves a 3++. Not sure why really

Angron, arguably the biggest beat stick in 30K right now, has 3+/4++. Horus has 2+/3++. Fulgrim is 2+/4++, but 3++ in close combat. So something to consider for Sanguinius.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Angron, arguably the biggest beat stick in 30K right now, has 3+/4++. Horus has 2+/3++. Fulgrim is 2+/4++, but 3++ in close combat. So something to consider for Sanguinius.

I may be misremembering as I haven't looked at his rules in a while, but doesn't Fulgrim have a 5++?

Fulgrim is 5++ normally and 3++ in combat.

The Blood Angels are supposed to be "master artisans with a refined aesthetic sense" (Blood Angels Codex) and they do possess an unusually high number of suits of Artificer Armour. So it would make sense for Sanguinius to have an amazing suit of Artificer Armour with a 2+/3++. However, it is a balancing issue as we don't want another Horus who just walks around slapping people off the table.

Cassor the Damned wrote:
The Blood Angels are supposed to be "master artisans with a refined aesthetic sense" (Blood Angels Codex) and they do possess an unusually high number of suits of Artificer Armour. So it would make sense for Sanguinius to have an amazing suit of Artificer Armour with a 2+/3++. However, it is a balancing issue as we don't want another Horus who just walks around slapping people off the table.

Except, that is kinda what Sanguinius is.

In tiers of power, he and Horus are top. The rest just look up.

 djones520 wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:
The Blood Angels are supposed to be "master artisans with a refined aesthetic sense" (Blood Angels Codex) and they do possess an unusually high number of suits of Artificer Armour. So it would make sense for Sanguinius to have an amazing suit of Artificer Armour with a 2+/3++. However, it is a balancing issue as we don't want another Horus who just walks around slapping people off the table.

Except, that is kinda what Sanguinius is.

In tiers of power, he and Horus are top. The rest just look up.

If you ignore Magnus, Empowered Lorgar (by the table top), Angron, and Fulgrim (on the tabletop)...

Except, that is kinda what Sanguinius is.

In tiers of power, he and Horus are top. The rest just look up.

Ik, but each of the beatstick primarchs were balanced out in some way. Angron got 5 wounds and a 3+ power armour save. Fulgrim you jus shoot to death as he is a 5++ when not in close combat. The only exception was Horus, and because he was never toned down in anyway, he wound up 500pts. I personally want to be able to use Sanguinius in as many games as possible, and I think that kind of pricetag might discourage me. So I want him to be nerfed in some way to keep his pts cost down, as unfluffy as that is.