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Hey guys

I'm currently using Testors dullcote and I really dislike it.

Metallic paints are significantly diminished by it (they lose their shine and darken by a shade or two - silver goes flat grey etc). Powders soak it up and dry to just look like a thick layer of paint. Sometimes it stays ever-so-slightly tacky, like when you lean on a desk too long and your skin clings to it.

Considering the lengths I have to go to, to buy Testors Dullcote in Australia, I don't think it's worth it!

I'm looking for a non-gloss sealant which gives great protection, leaves metals bright and shiny and without (hopefully) detracting from the dry, matte look of powders.

Any ideas?
In the past I used Citadel purity spray and it worked fine on metals but I haven't tested it on powders yet. I had one nightmare with it 'fogging' but that was my own fault for using it incorrectly.

Or, if you have tips on how to get better results from dullcote that would help too.

 Aryllon wrote:

I'm currently using Testors dullcote and I really dislike it.

Metallic paints are significantly diminished by it (they lose their shine and darken by a shade or two - silver goes flat grey etc). Powders soak it up and dry to just look like a thick layer of paint. Sometimes it stays ever-so-slightly tacky, like when you lean on a desk too long and your skin clings to it.

But that's just what Testors Dullcoat does exactly, heck all Matte varnishes do. It makes everything matte. If you don't like it you should go for a satin varnish.

No it doesn't just make everything matte, it fully dulls and darkens the metallics.

Metallic paints are already matte, there's a big difference between shiny and glossy. Sealing them shouldn't change that. Other sprays I've used don't do it.

Testors' hasn't proven itself to offer better protection so I'm not sure why it has such a good reputation.

It also darkens the colours of pigment powders and *removes* the nice highly matte effect they normally give.

Like I said, Citadel purity seal didn't have the same problems either. It's just expensive and if used incorrectly can cause fogging.

I actually don't mind the TEstors' effect in some cases - my nurgle stuff benefits from having the metals dulled and darkened.

But that should be an aesthetic choice, not a default that applies to all models / schemes if I want to protect the paintjob.

Metalic paints aren't matte. They got flakes in them that gives them their sheen. If you go over that with a matte spray they turn dull.

I do not normally finish spray my minis, but I did a couple of projects where I needed to seal and on one project I used a Krylon matte varnish spray and on the other I used matte acrylic spray from Hobby Lobby (US) - the Krylon did all that you mention the Testors was doing, but the Tree House Studio spray worked great!

http://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Stencils-Craft-Paints/Mediums-Finishes/Matte-Clear-Acrylic-Coating/p/5909

However, not sure if this is available down under, but maybe you can find a similar product from an art supply store locally.

If you can give us an example of a matte finish that does not dull down metals, we may be able to help. Otherwise experience says you go back over metals with a gloss finish (such as 'ardcoat) to bring the metals back to a shiny finish.

You may also be putting in on wayyyyy to thick. I put 'ardcoat on my minis, then a light spray of testor's dullcoat, and the light spray is plenty to dull them down. Glosses almost over give a better protection, so I'd recommend that over just spraying them heavily with a matte finish.

There are flat metallics.... but most aren't. Most are glossy. If you spray them with a matte varnish, they will turn dull. If you buy a flat metallic it will also be dull.

If you want to retain the shine of a metallic the only way to do it is with a satin or gloss varnish.

If you look at products specifically marketed as metallic varnishes (for example Vallejo's Metal Varnish or Alclad's varnish) all they are is gloss varnishes.

If you want the rest of the model dull and the metals shiny, the only way to do it is to paint the metals with a gloss or satin varnish and the rest of the model with a matte varnish.

Also where in Australia are you? Most hobby shops carry Testors Dullcote, it shouldn't be hard to get.

Regular old Krylon matte works great. Or for extra protection, use Krylon gloss (harder than matte) then a top coat of matte to take the shine away.

The Grumpy Eldar wrote:Metalic paints aren't matte. They got flakes in them that gives them their sheen.

Shiny metallic flakes have nothing to do with the paint being gloss.

troa wrote:If you can give us an example of a matte finish that does not dull down metals, we may be able to help.

Google image 'matte silver', all the results

AllSeeingSkink wrote:There are flat metallics.... but most aren't. Most are glossy.

Citadel metallics aren't gloss. Same as most acrylic paints.


I think I should clarify in case people aren't distinguishing between separate concepts . Gloss and matte are not the same as metallic or non-metallic, or shiny and non-shiny.

Gloss and matte relate to the surface quality of a finish - namely how reflective that surface is. It has nothing to do with something being metallic. Shiny pigments in metallic paints do not affect the surface quality (and so do not determine whether it is gloss or not). If the paint dries with a smooth, glassy finish it is gloss - for a metallic paint to be gloss, it would have to dry with a glassy, reflective finish even if you were to remove the metal flakes.

Citadel paint does not dry with a gloss ('glass') finish, regardless whether it's a metallic colour or not.

A gloss sealant is glossy because it applies a transparent layer over the paint which dries with a highly smooth, reflective finish. Light bounces off it, even before it reaches the paint.
A matte sealant is also a transparent layer over the paint, but it instead dries with a rough grainy finish (too tiny for human eyes) which prevents the surface from being reflective. Light is refracted rather than reflected, again before it reaches the paint.

But that matte quality doesn't mean the metallic flakes in the paint underneath are obscured - the finish is transparent so you can still see them and they can still reflect light. But it has to pass through the matte surface which dims the shine.

This is not the problem I'm having.

A matte finish should simply reduce the reflectiveness, it should not turn metallics a significantly darker shade (i.e. change it to a different colour) and you should still be able to see some shiny pigment.

So I just want to know if people have found any matte sealants which not only don't remove too much metallic sheen (like Testors does, which as you've all agreed is to be expected, if not to this degree), but also darkening the colour of paints (like Testors does) and changing both the colour and finish of powders (like Testors does).

I've also found Testors to not actually be very protective compared to Citadel Purity Seal. And yes I shake it enough!

The Krylon product sounds good though, I'll see if I can source some online. I'm in Sydney so have no issues with postage / delivery.

I know the difference between metallic shine and glossy shine, all the citadel metallics I've tried are distinctively gloss (or at the very least on the gloss side of satin) rather than matte. If you buy a metallic that is specifically designed as a matte metallic, for example Tamiya XF16 (Flat Aluminium) and paint a citadel metallic next to it, the citadel metallic has a glossy shine that makes it almost look wet by comparison.

 Aryllon wrote:
So I just want to know if people have found any matte sealants which not only don't remove too much metallic sheen (like Testors does, which as you've all agreed is to be expected, if not to this degree)

You essentially want something less matte then. If I want to preserve the sheen I use a satin rather than a matte.

but also darkening the colour of paints (like Testors does)

I've never observed this with Testors. Are you sure it's not just looking darker because the sheen has changed? The shade of a colour is inexorably linked with the level of glossiness. The only thing I find odd is usually matte finishes look more pale rather than looking darker, but maybe it depends on the colour.

For example, these 2 aircraft are both painted with the exact same metalizer (it was Vallejo Metal Color but I can't actually remember which one). Metalizers are distinct from regular metallics in that they attempt to look like real metals rather than just metallic flakes in a paint, but the general principle is the same in that they use metallic flakes, they just use finer flakes and less of them in a paint that is better at self-levelling.

This one is matte...


And this one is satin...


I also had a gloss one but apparently I didn't take a photo before I stripped it, the gloss one had a mirror like finish like a highly polished metal. You need the gloss to achieve that effect, but there's a fine line between looking highly polished and simply looking wet.

When painting aircraft in a natural metal finish one technique is simply to apply primers with different levels of glossiness to different panels to make it look like the panels are subtly different colours.

and changing both the colour and finish of powders (like Testors does).

It depends how you applied the pigments, but basically all varnishes will do that. You can only minimise it by using a matte varnish and dusting it on (but it won't give brilliant protection). The more glossy the finish over pigments you use, they'll tend to look both darker and wetter. You can actually use this to achieve different effects, by mixing pigments with a gloss varnish you can achieve a dark wet mud effect, by mixing the exact same pigment with matte varnish, you'll get a pale dry looking mud. In one of Humbrol's videos they show you how to varnish a model to protect the pigments...

https://youtu.be/H7a3pgN7xy4?t=4m10s

If you watch it to the end you can see what happens when he applies a gloss varnish to the pigments, they go dark.

Note that it's not going to give the model a great deal of resilience, so you should probably varnish the model before applying the pigments for the sake of protecting the paintwork, and then give a light dusting of a matte varnish after applying the pigments.


EDIT: I just had a thought. Testors Dullcote is a lacquer which is more than capable of softening acrylic paints, maybe it's looking darker because it's actually slightly eating in to the metallic and bringing out a darker colour (eg. if you used a black primer)? I dunno, just a thought. I have had one model that I primed grey and applied Testors Glosscote (the gloss version of dullcote) too soon and too heavily and the grey primer started to show through.

This is a really helpful response, thanks mate!

It depends really - the finish I want is what you show in that picture of the matte plane - but with Testors dullcote I don't achieve that type of finish, instead it just goes a straight flat grey.

What I've done instead is add some edge highlighting and limitd drybrushing to the metals again, after using dullcote to protect it.

If you look at the recent pics of my Rhino you'll see what I mean - I finished the model by adding leadbelcher highlights, but the areas where the bone armour paint has been worn away all look a very flat dark grey... these were leadbelcher with a thin nuln oil wash and re-applied leadbelcher drybrush before the Testors was applied.

Good shout with the pigments, I actually did re-apply some in the recesses after the Testors too. I avoided the large flat areas which previously had pignemt though because it just rubs away under my fingers.

I like Testors because it is a very matte matte.

Have you tried putting gloss or satin back over the metal bits with a brush after spraying with dullcote?

(I have not because the duller metallics are fine for me).