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This is probably a bad idea tactically, but what happens if you cast Gate of Infinity on an Assault Marine Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force? Can you charge after it?

Well, yes. Good luck getting a Libby to them in time though as HQ's can't deploy with this formation.

It says they can assault the turn they arrive from deep strike reserves. Using Gate doesn't put them into deep strike reserve so it won't activate that rule. Also if you use gate the turn they arrived from reserves then the psyker who casted the power doesn't have the skyhammer's rule so it would keep the unit from assaulting even if it was gated the turn it arrived via deep strike.

 Vankraken wrote:
It says they can assault the turn they arrive from deep strike reserves. Using Gate doesn't put them into deep strike reserve so it won't activate that rule. Also if you use gate the turn they arrived from reserves then the psyker who casted the power doesn't have the skyhammer's rule so it would keep the unit from assaulting even if it was gated the turn it arrived via deep strike.

That makes sense. Thanks!

I would say no. For the same reason they couldn't charge if they ran in the assault phase that turn. To prevent the need from ever occurring - go ahead and take a scout bike unit with a homing beacon and scout it right at the target you want to assault with the marines - they wont scatter now and you can use your jump packs to reroll your charge distance.

MattKing wrote:Well, yes. Good luck getting a Libby to them in time though as HQ's can't deploy with this formation.

Yes, they can deploy with that Formation. There is no restriction against joining ICs to them during deployment.

Vankraken wrote:It says they can assault the turn they arrive from deep strike reserves. Using Gate doesn't put them into deep strike reserve so it won't activate that rule.

This is the reason why Gate won't work.

Vankraken wrote:Also if you use gate the turn they arrived from reserves then the psyker who casted the power doesn't have the skyhammer's rule so it would keep the unit from assaulting even if it was gated the turn it arrived via deep strike.

This is the Draft FAQ's position.

Nothing in the actual rule in question requires all models to have the rule to participate, nor is there any standard in the rulebook that any rule that affects a unit must have all models possessing it to work.

The Draft FAQ (Independent characters) states that characters cannot join this formation.
This is the page that used the wrong answer set, the corrected answers are on the facebook page:

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

 MattKing wrote:
The Draft FAQ (Independent characters) states that characters cannot join this formation.
This is the page that used the wrong answer set, the corrected answers are on the facebook page:

Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together?
A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

None of that states that the ICs from other Detachments cannot join, it just means they do not benefit from their special rules. There is a significant difference between the two classifications.

Tell me how an IC cannot benefit when a rule affects a unit when that is exactly what Stubborn does?

They can join the unit, just not at deployment.

I disagree with the ruling but it comes directly from GW.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

So, they cannot first turn assault or deep strike with the unit. If they cannot enter without rolling reserves with the rest of the unit how can they join them in deployment?

 MattKing wrote:
They can join the unit, just not at deployment.

I disagree with the ruling but it comes directly from GW.

Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.

So, they cannot first turn assault or deep strike with the unit. If they cannot enter without rolling reserves with the rest of the unit how can they join them in deployment?

The ruling did not say they couldn't be joined during deployment. The ruling only said they don't get the command benefit rules. You can still put the unit in Reserves and have an IC joined to the unit; this is allowed according to page 135 of the main rulebook.

But then they don't benefit from the deployment rules.... so how do they arrive from reserves?

 MattKing wrote:
But then they don't benefit from the deployment rules.... so how do they arrive from reserves?

You are right - if the formation gives special permissions such as automatic 1st turn or 2nd turn DS - they can not join.

 MattKing wrote:
But then they don't benefit from the deployment rules.... so how do they arrive from reserves?

Presumably the way other units arrive from Reserves. If all the models are jump infantry, or the joined IC is wearing termie armor, they can still deep strike as per the rules for terminator armor and for jump units.

 MattKing wrote:
But then they don't benefit from the deployment rules.... so how do they arrive from reserves?

And now you are looking at part of the stupidity of the Draft FAQ rulings on this matter.

With the Devastator Squads, it is not a problem. Any model embarked on a Drop Pod will be affected by it. With the Assault Squads, you are either violating the Draft FAQ and have them all come in as scheduled because the unit gets to drag their ICs along with (Units in Reserve MUST come in at the same time, and combine the roll they use), or you violate the first rule of the detachment which tells the when it comes in.

BUT this doesn't mean you cannot join ICs to them. You are making an extreme leap of logic to go from one to the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
But then they don't benefit from the deployment rules.... so how do they arrive from reserves?

You are right - if the formation gives special permissions such as automatic 1st turn or 2nd turn DS - they can not join.

Incorrect. Nothing in the rules actually supports this statement. In fact, it would violate the situation with Drop Pod Assault for the first turn because units Embarked on them would not be able to Arrive in the unit they were Embarked in. When setting up an arrival by a combined unit, it is only one's consideration for that.

With the Devastator Squads, it is not a problem. Any model embarked on a Drop Pod will be affected by it.

Can the IC's even enter the drop pods of battle brothers? It's different formations so wouldn't you be unable to use your "brothers" transports?

 MattKing wrote:

With the Devastator Squads, it is not a problem. Any model embarked on a Drop Pod will be affected by it.

Can the IC's even enter the drop pods of battle brothers? It's different formations so wouldn't you be unable to use your "brothers" transports?

Who said anything about Battle Brothers? Different detachments do not trigger Allies, different Factions do (and different Chapter Traits).

It was my understanding that different detachments treated each other as allied despite being the same faction, for the purposes of transports. (so on the chart, nids are BB's with nids of other detachments.) I thought this was why you can't use Gabriel Seth to drop assaulting fleshtearer's terminators in drop pods on turn 1.

 MattKing wrote:
It was my understanding that different detachments treated each other as allied despite being the same faction, for the purposes of transports. (so on the chart, nids are BB's with nids of other detachments.) I thought this was why you can't use Gabriel Seth to drop assaulting fleshtearer's terminators in drop pods on turn 1.

A common misconception that has been presented a lot since the Battle Brothers Draft redefinition came out, and also because of how people were trying to explain why so many Battle Brothers were being associated with themselves when there was only one Faction. The key point to remember is the only actual distinction is:

Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other.

And that the word "detachment" is never mentioned in the Allies section of the book. In fact, the last mention of "detachment" is before the entry to Allies begins.

 MattKing wrote:
It was my understanding that different detachments treated each other as allied despite being the same faction, for the purposes of transports. (so on the chart, nids are BB's with nids of other detachments.) I thought this was why you can't use Gabriel Seth to drop assaulting fleshtearer's terminators in drop pods on turn 1.

From page 126 of the main rulebook:

"The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army." It doesn't discuss detachments or formations, merely units from different factions. You are never told to use the Allies Matrix for the same faction.

Neat.