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2016/11/16 18:20:16
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Three Dutch World War Two ships considered war graves have vanished from the bottom of the Java Sea, the Dutch defence ministry says.
All three were sunk by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in 1942, and their wrecks were discovered by divers in 2002.
A report in the Guardian says three British ships have disappeared as well.
The British government says it is "distressed" by the reports and is investigating.
A new expedition to mark next year's 75th anniversary of the battle found the wrecks missing.
The Guardian says it has seen 3D images, showing large holes in the seabed where HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, the destroyer HMS Electra, as well as a US submarine, used to be.
Experts say salvaging the wrecks would have been a huge operation.
The Dutch defence ministry is to investigate the mysterious disappearance.
In a statement, it said that two of its ships had completely gone, with sonar images only showing imprints, while large parts of a third ship, a destroyer, were missing.
"The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence," the ministry said.
The UK's Ministry of Defence confirmed that it had contacted the Indonesian authorities.
An MOD spokesperson said, "Many lives were lost during this battle and we would expect that these sites are respected and left undisturbed without the express consent of the United Kingdom."
Deep sea salvage: How to recover lost treasures of the deep
Map of Indonesia showing location of Battle of Java sea just north of Java
Theo Doorman, 82, son of legendary Rear Admiral Karel Doorman, who led the battle, was on the expedition which hoped to film the wrecks two weeks ago.
He said he could not believe his eyes when the sonar images came in, showing only a groove where his father's ship had been.
"I was sad," he said.
"Not angry. That doesn't get you anywhere. But sad. For centuries is was a custom not to disturb sailors' graves. But it did happen here."
Image of HNLMS JavaImage copyrightNETHERLANDS INSTITUTE OF MILITARY HISTORY
The Battle of the Java Sea
27 February 1942
Allied action to stop Japanese Navy
Dutch, British, Australian, US forces ships involved
Five cruisers and nine destroyers involved, Led by Rear-Admiral Karel Doorman
Only two ships remained
Vanished ships are HNLMS De Ruyter, HNLMS Java, and HNLMS Kortenaer
Defeat led to the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia)
The seas around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia are a graveyard for hundreds of ships and submarines sunk during the war.
Illegal salvaging of the wrecks for steel, aluminium and brass has become commonplace.
But the three missing wrecks were located 100km (60 miles) off the coast of Indonesia, at a depth of 70m. Salvage operators say it would not be easy to lift them.
"It is almost impossible to salvage this," Paul Koole of the salvage film Mammoet told the Algemeen Dagblad. "It is far too deep."
Experts say the operation would have needed large cranes for long periods of time and would be unlikely to have gone unnoticed.
The Indonesian Navy, when contacted by the BBC, said they were unaware of the disappearance but said they would investigate.
"To say that the wreckage had gone suddenly, doesn't make sense," Navy spokesman Colonel Gig Sipasulta said. "It is underwater activities that can take months even years."
The Dutch authorities have also notified the other countries that formed part of the international expedition: the UK, Australia and the US.
Its pretty difficult to salvage a wreck in such locations, would it be worth it for scrap metal?
2016/11/16 18:33:16
Subject: Re:Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
This is unusual to say the least. Evidently the value of scrap has risen to the point where it is economically viable to undertake salvage operations like this.
I suppose the question to ask is how long has to pass before grave desecration becomes OK? I visited the Mary Rose years back after it was recovered, and that was a sailor's grave.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 18:33:44
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2016/11/16 18:36:51
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Yeah, its much more likely to be treasure hunters than scrap collectors surely. If all you're after is scrap metal, why not just raid a junkyard? There must be far more easily accessible sources of scrap on the surface.
2016/11/16 18:43:21
Subject: Re:Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yeah, its much more likely to be treasure hunters than scrap collectors surely. If all you're after is scrap metal, why not just raid a junkyard? There must be far more easily accessible sources of scrap on the surface.
Id figure it would be easier to go undetected out in the ocean than your neighborhood junkyard.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yeah, its much more likely to be treasure hunters than scrap collectors surely. If all you're after is scrap metal, why not just raid a junkyard? There must be far more easily accessible sources of scrap on the surface.
Id figure it would be easier to go undetected out in the ocean than your neighborhood junkyard.
Wouldn't it be more expensive? First you need a boat, diving equipment enough oxygen to grab the ship wreck valuables and tools to store it and then ship it. You would be then working at negative amount for a while. Not only would it be dangerous to you, but what if the bulkheads collapose and trap you? I know many people who would eschew that for something much safer.
Junkyards are not that expensive either and would probably cost less than a dive into a ship.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2016/11/16 18:51:14
Subject: Re:Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yeah, its much more likely to be treasure hunters than scrap collectors surely. If all you're after is scrap metal, why not just raid a junkyard? There must be far more easily accessible sources of scrap on the surface.
Id figure it would be easier to go undetected out in the ocean than your neighborhood junkyard.
Wouldn't it be more expensive? First you need a boat, diving equipment enough oxygen to grab the ship wreck valuables and tools to store it and then ship it. You would be then working at negative amount for a while. Not only would it be dangerous to you, but what if the bulkheads collapose and trap you? I know many people who would eschew that for something much safer.
Junkyards are not that expensive either and would probably cost less than a dive into a ship.
Sorry, an assumption for both Stealing for scrap or for antique booty.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yeah, its much more likely to be treasure hunters than scrap collectors surely. If all you're after is scrap metal, why not just raid a junkyard? There must be far more easily accessible sources of scrap on the surface.
I played Uncharted 4, I know what's in those ships
It has to be for scrap. You can't sell to antiquity dealers since anything of provenance (named, serial numbered etc) shows that the items are belonging to a listed war grave.
What would be more heart breaking is if these graves were salvaged for the scrap then the scrap is useless. Is there a market for salt water corroded metals?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 18:58:47
2016/11/16 19:02:07
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Mr. Burning wrote: It has to be for scrap. You can't sell to antiquity dealers since anything of provenance (named, serial numbered etc) shows that the items are belonging to a listed war grave.
What would be more heart breaking is if these graves were salvaged for the scrap then the scrap is useless. Is there a market for salt water corroded metals?
No, none at all. Well at least I know of. Salt water kind of ruins the metal and causes the price to drop considerably.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2016/11/16 19:03:31
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Mr. Burning wrote: It has to be for scrap. You can't sell to antiquity dealers since anything of provenance (named, serial numbered etc) shows that the items are belonging to a listed war grave.
What would be more heart breaking is if these graves were salvaged for the scrap then the scrap is useless. Is there a market for salt water corroded metals?
I don't know much about the recycling process, but I imagine there is some kind of system to strip off the rust. 18" of belt armour would still have quite a bit of 'meat' I would guess.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2016/11/16 19:10:20
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
But more seriously, if they are actually being stolen and this isn't just them getting moved because of an underwater earthquake or something, that's pretty horrible.
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2016/11/16 19:33:36
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
LordofHats wrote: Is it possible the structures of the ships have started to collapse, and they're still there but no longer "standing"?
Incredibly unlikely. As the story points out, it's not like they've collapsed and been covered up. Sonar shows a hole where the ships used to be. They have been moved.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2016/11/16 19:54:30
Subject: Re:Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
I'd just like to point out that if this steel was made before 1945 it'd be valuable for radiological purposes, since it'll have been uncontaminated by the trace amounts of radioactive isotopes released into the atmosphere by nuclear testing and accidents. The German Fleet from WWI in Scapa Flow is regularly salvaged for such steel. There's some value in that, I guess.
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2016/11/16 20:04:30
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
LordofHats wrote: Is it possible the structures of the ships have started to collapse, and they're still there but no longer "standing"?
Incredibly unlikely. As the story points out, it's not like they've collapsed and been covered up. Sonar shows a hole where the ships used to be. They have been moved.
Well then. Shall this be a pitch forks and torches sort of mob, or one of those creepily standing outside the bedroom window glaring from the woods kind of mob
What is that time frame for when these ships were last known to be there and when they were discovered missing?
Do we have the technology to have removed them in that time span unnoticed?
Is this in the same area, or in many areas around the world?
When I fist read this, my first thought was otherworldly involvement.
Mr. Burning wrote: It has to be for scrap. You can't sell to antiquity dealers since anything of provenance (named, serial numbered etc) shows that the items are belonging to a listed war grave.
What would be more heart breaking is if these graves were salvaged for the scrap then the scrap is useless. Is there a market for salt water corroded metals?
Black market. I doubt they'd care if it was from a war grave, or maybe they know hence why they're buying it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: What is that time frame for when these ships were last known to be there and when they were discovered missing?
Do we have the technology to have removed them in that time span unnoticed?
Is this in the same area, or in many areas around the world?
When I fist read this, my first thought was otherworldly involvement.
Please tell me you're joking why would aliens want our old ships?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/16 20:31:39
Galef wrote: What is that time frame for when these ships were last known to be there and when they were discovered missing?
Do we have the technology to have removed them in that time span unnoticed?
Is this in the same area, or in many areas around the world?
When I fist read this, my first thought was otherworldly involvement.
Please tell me you're joking why would aliens want our old ships?
Not the aliens. Us. To fight the aliens. That's why we're raising the Titanic. To fight aliens.
5 Internets to whoever can correct name this movie
I didn't say I thought that was happening, just that it was the first thought to cross my mind. I don't know the specifics of pulling huge metal boats from the ocean floor, but assumed it was out of our realm of possibility, or at least something that would take so long it couldn't go unnoticed. So, ya know,....aliens did it. Then I read a bit more and realized I was being silly.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/16 20:39:48
Obviously its the easiest way to get enough metal to shroud their Star Kraken in steel as they shield them from our toxic atmosphere prior to invasion.
2016/11/16 20:57:21
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
The difference between the Allied WW2 ships and the Mary Rose is that the Mary Rose is a Royal Navy ship sunk in UK national waters and raised by permission of the UK government and preserved as a memorial and historical exhibit, whereas these WW2 ships appear to have been ripped off for scrap metal.
raising such old (and battle damaged) shios is going to be a mammoth task if you try to get them up intact
and if your pulling them up piecemeal its going to be darn tricky too.. either sending divers down to cut them up which might just allow you to leave a blank foot print
or blowing them up (again tricky with a warship with armour on) and dredging up fragments which would not leave a regular footprint but a big mess instead
2016/11/16 21:39:33
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Kilkrazy wrote: The difference between the Allied WW2 ships and the Mary Rose is that the Mary Rose is a Royal Navy ship sunk in UK national waters and raised by permission of the UK government and preserved as a memorial and historical exhibit, whereas these WW2 ships appear to have been ripped off for scrap metal.
And bodies would have been given full military honours as fitting there rank as servicemen to the crown.
They would of received same respect as any modern soldier. Sailor or airmen.
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2016/11/16 21:58:28
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Galef wrote: What is that time frame for when these ships were last known to be there and when they were discovered missing?
Do we have the technology to have removed them in that time span unnoticed?
Is this in the same area, or in many areas around the world?
When I fist read this, my first thought was otherworldly involvement.
Has anyone checked to see if the dolphins are still around, those sneaky fish have been planning an escape for some time. They sent a email to Clinton saying "so long and thanks for all the fish"
2016/11/16 22:07:14
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Guy's, I appreciate the avenue for levity with this topic, but this is pretty much the equivalent of someone sneaking into Arlington, and digging up a couple thousand graves.
At least for me, this is a pretty serious issue.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2016/11/16 22:11:06
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
Galef wrote: What is that time frame for when these ships were last known to be there and when they were discovered missing?
Do we have the technology to have removed them in that time span unnoticed?
Is this in the same area, or in many areas around the world?
When I fist read this, my first thought was otherworldly involvement.
Please tell me you're joking why would aliens want our old ships?
Not the aliens. Us. To fight the aliens. That's why we're raising the Titanic. To fight aliens.
5 Internets to whoever can correct name this movie
Raise the Titianic based on the book by Clive Cussler? Of course, I don't recall fighting aliens in that one.
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2016/11/16 22:27:17
Subject: Some of our ships are missing..war graves vanished from the sea bed.
~1.5k
why would aliens want our old ships?
