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I'n my house rule fo deep assault you can't assault if you arrive turn one, it just wouldn't be fair. Infact I think we should get rid of turn 1 deep strike altogether.

In all the 23 years I've played 40K l think it's the most game breakin mechanic the rules team have ever come up with. And that's saying something considering the crap they've been releasing lately.

There are lots of good reasons for not allowing assaults from deep strike, and every time there have been opportunities that allow it, its been shown to be horrifically broken aside from stuff like 5E Vanguard Vets who were both very expensive and had to deal with harsher mishap penalties than we have now.

Now, therr are some things that should change for assaults, being able to assault from walk on reserve or out of a stationary transport being the big two, but assaulting from Deep Strike, particularly with how safe DS has become and how assured Reserves are now, should never be an option.

It's Deep Strike that's broken, there should be no deep strike on turn one, for a start.

But I've played every version of Warhammer 40K. Deep Strike, Assaults, Overwatch all used to work Great but since 5th edition Warhammer 40K's been falling apart.

If we don't start bringing back some of the old rules and game mechanics the game wont be worth playing in two or three years time.

 Andross wrote:


But I've played every version of Warhammer 40K. Deep Strike, Assaults, Overwatch all used to work Great but since 5th edition Warhammer 40K's been falling apart.

If we don't start bringing back some of the old rules and game mechanics the game wont be worth playing in two or three years time.

While I agree the game should definitely be rolled back to the days of 4th and 5th edition, there overwatch didn't even exist in these editions (nor did interceptor) and you certainly could not deepstrike out of assault, save for the aforementioned vanguard vets. So I am not sure where you are going here when you mentioned bringing back the old rules.

So, without referring to a rulebook or a battle report, what were people's fond memories of 5th edition? For me:

Tau Railguns being good, everything being CAD, apocalypse stuff in apoc, no hull points, you?

 carldooley wrote:
So, without referring to a rulebook or a battle report, what were people's fond memories of 5th edition? For me:

Tau Railguns being good, everything being CAD, apocalypse stuff in apoc, no hull points, you?

My main memories of fifth are rows of leafblowers, razorbacks, mech spam all over, and Chaos Daemons being absolutely gack because of that whole "Split the army in two and pray the one you want arrives".

Assault was better though! Even with those janky wound allocation rules.

I never played during 5th but I have played a few games under 5th rules, assault to assault consolidation was something I wish was still a thing.
Mind you, I was playing Nids under rules they thrived on.

I'm talking 2nd edition overwatch (That's right I 'veplayed since 2nd some thing most people here haven't even read about so here's an education)

2nd edition overwatch consisted of firiing overwatch in your opponents movement phase at the cost of your own shooting phase. That worked and felt sold.

Then in the errata for 3rd they got rid of it entirely.

Only to bring it back in 6th as the pile of crap we have now.

And of course we didn't have interceptor before deep strike. that would almost be as dumb as playing as current edition vanilla space marines and trying convincing people that you won for any other reason than what cod3x you put. on the table.

Wow, passionate posts from all sides

I personally own a Dreadclaw, but have only used it twice. It Munched Kharn as he left :( So that was faq'd I believe.

But I'd kill for a regular Drop Pod for 35 pts. The Dreadclaw is what... 100pts now? And it can still deepstrike mishap cause it doesn't have the rules of the 35pt model, but instead has some crap flame effect that has never worked for me as yet.

And have you SEEN the Karabydis? It's what, 350pts and probably the same in £'s to buy? THATs why it has awesome rules. It's HUGE!

I'd far rather my Nightlords had access to a regular drop pod to get them actually over the table, than relying on the dreadclaw not being blown up the turn it lands.

Tbh I think DSing needs to change in the new rules. But purely to benefit some of the assault armies out there (Not deathstars as earlier mentioned), but for armys who're meant to represent the fury from above that jump packs used to represent. They're very dated now.

Look at Nightlords, Blood Angels and the Raven Guard. All armies who are very jumpy, but I think only the CSM formations now allow them to do a disorganised charge from deepstrike.

My group have heard me banging on for years on how unfair it is that all of IoM get to deploy half their reserves turn one in my face. Planting SW Dreadnaughts and Drop pods directly in line of my deployment roads. Land Raiders and other things then basically being pinned into the roads that the scenery had left out for them. Not to mention they can contain AP3 vets or Lotd. Hey, their decurion gives them free vehicles too doesn't it?

It's a cool way of playing and I don't think it should be removed. Tbh all armies should have the option opened up for them, rather than removing it. Very thematic & I know my CSM armies used to struggle to get halfway over the board in the past.

They would sure as hell sell more models.

Gonna quote my post I made on the same subject thats under the proposed rules section, change no ranged to, no ranged other then pistols and or grenades

 Backspacehacker wrote:
How about we just say this and make this whole thread boil down and be solved.

Lightning Strike: If a unit has deep strike, or disembarks from a transport of anykind and is a dedicated melee class (No ranged weapons, HQs do not factor in) They my assault on the turn the disembark or deep strike, but do so as if is a disordered charge.

You can then apply this rule to units as needed.

Banshees, assault terminators, Deathwing knights, assault marines, ect ect.

BOOM! problem solved you can now deep strike your melee units into combat and have them actually do something reather then sit there for a turn looking like dick heads. This also would make howling banshees playable again. Terminators a bit more scare, and you can assault outta a drop pod if you are assault maries, or of the like.

It also makes it so for things like terminators they cant deep strike, open fire AND charge you.

Overwatch: Dont change a thing, shooting is already way to strong is this ed, and overwatch in 2nd and 3rd was crazy OP and result in in games where no one would actually move anywhere because it was not worth it.

No, no, no. Chaos does not need ISM drop pods.

What we need ISM drop pods to stop being a broken outright filthy cheating option. It's Codex ISM that needs to stop being an embarrassing instant wiin by proxy piles of crap.

If all armies had risk free first turn deep strike. then there'd be no deployment zones, no designated boardd edges, no reserves, the first turn would become the set up were ever the hell you wan't phase.

Only a complete moron would advocate sutch idiotic game braking rubbish.

Turn one drop pods are hardly game breaking, and they definitely are not cheating lol.

First of all its their most iconic form of deployment, second only half your drop pods rounding up show up automatically, the rest need to be rolled for which this may come as a surprise is not a garuntee. So you could end up going half the game with only 3/4th on your army on the board.

If you think drop pods and turn one Deep strike is the problem, you are looking in the wrong place.

See: overpowered formation, grav.

Also you can only fit so much is drop pods, foot slogging marines, dreads, and if you cheese it centurions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you might want to calm it on tossing around "only a complete moron would do X." It's going to quickly loose you creditability and the form will end up nowhere fast

 Grumzimus wrote:

But I'd kill for a regular Drop Pod for 35 pts. The Dreadclaw is what... 100pts now? And it can still deepstrike mishap cause it doesn't have the rules of the 35pt model, but instead has some crap flame effect that has never worked for me as yet.
.

That is the first time it occurred to me that they do not have inertial guidance. That is a game changer right there. Latest 30k rules cranked the dreadclaw to 115, although it could be years before that is reflected in an IA book.

Not letting any deepstrike occur turn 1 is an interesting thought, but it pretty much kills drop pods rather than slightly curbing their power. I think drop pods probably should be about 50-60pts, although with gladius its not like transport costs matter for SM anyway. Having an obsec AV12 box automatically arriving where you need it to is just dramatically more useful than a 35pt rhino. If the rhino gets where you need it too, its still so fragile that the chance of actually hopping back in for a second ride is almost non-existent. Being able to assault from stationary vehicles and from outflank to me seems like a much more reasonable compromise.

I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

Well firsly, you have made a faux assumption. I am not a "CSM" player. My game time is split fairly evenly between my Chaos, Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Eldar Harlequins, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids.

My Chaos Space Marines force is by far the largest of my armies, but thast's not a gaming preference, it's an artistic one. They are by far the most convertable and customisably army in 40K so I've been able to infuse more diversify and charactre into that force.

I also have some Genesteaer Cult sets but Ihaven,t put any together yet. I ran out of display space I will have some shiny new cabinets some time next week. They were suposed to be here already but the store fluft up my order. First they doubled my order. hen when I rang to correct it they cancelled the whole order. Any way they said this coming week for definite.

I do get a lot of infiltraters shooting me up. My brother Adam has lots of Wolf Scouts and they can be a pain from time to time. But hen my Dark Eldar are out using webway portals and mandrakes, Or my 'nids with their Raveners and Lictors. And even my CSM can get in on the fun if I roll Master of Deception (or I'm playing Huron) and I roll a good D3. So I've got no problem with infultrate.

Now as for first turn deep strike. It never happens when I play. Our game group voted and the motion to disallow the rule passed unanimously. We have too much respect for each other and the game than to use such a stupid broken rule,

And ust so you know Adam runs quite a lot of drop pods both with his Space Wolves and Ultra Marines and he always rolls for scatter and mishap. Entirely his own choice. Basically he says he likes to win because he out fought and out manoeuvred his opponent, not because he cheated.

Well at least that's one ISM player with some dignity and self respect. I mean it's a start right?

Again i think you are give drop pods to much credit, remember all you are going to get outta them are either space marines, or dreads both of which on their own, are not that scary.

And secondly, its not like you dont know its going to happen, if you are going up against a player how is bringing 7 drop pods, you know 4 are coming in turn one, and you should be planning accordingly to that.

Again, drop pods are hardly what makes them OP.

If you wanna talk about OP, look at the gladius or lions blade formation, where you can take over 300 points of free transports that all have objective secured.

Drop pods are highly overrated.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

This.

They are only armor 12 with a storm bolter, thats not very scary.

The only time they are really well utilized if you use them in a semi deathstar(?) where you load up one with a dev squad fully kitted with either melta or grav, and attach a cataphractii captain to it, that way they all get slow and purposful.

Drop that next to your opponents deathstar, or what have you, and watch it vanish on the board. But again, thats a death star unit so its going to be cheesy and scary.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Again, i need to stress this, you also need to look at how overpowered the SM codex is currently.

I will say this though, man you put a BA Dread in one with those claws, i had a game once where i was running toward an marker, my opponent dropped taht on it. Asked him, "So how many attacks does that get?....oh wow, S10 yeah? ....wait what? At initiative?!" Turned my bikes around and floored it as far and fast as i could lol.

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Are they powerful? They strand the contents on foot. If the alpha strike fails, they are stranded and likely dead. Skyhammer pods are good because the contents are relentless. Gladius pods are good because they are free and obj sec. Standard old drop pod? I think Rhinos are better.

 Andross wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Andross wrote:
I am in absolute agreement that "moron" is an unacceptable turm as it's origin lies in a derogatory name for a mentally disabled person and I apologise wholey to you and by extension the entire dakka comunity.

That said I can't agree with your argument.

Firstly try to understand the position I am coming from.

Firstly I am a veteran of this game having played every edition other than rogue trader, wich I still watched my cousin play when i was very young. Although at the time I was just mesmerised by the figures, the character sheets and dice and thinking how much cooler it was than snakes and ladders and monopoly. Insidently this is same uber cool cousin who taught me how to have play hero quest (Which I still have). Garry you're a legend.

Secondly I'm not some player who stabs at ISM cause they always beat me. I was the most dedicated Imperial Space Marines player you could have but they've been getting so many buffs and bull crap bonus rules they can now pretty much break any rule they want.

I'm not saying skilled players couldn't play at tactical game with them, it's just no one would notice that's what they were doing. They would just see another ISM army going through their auto win protocols.

There's no satisfaction or sense of achievement in winning with Imperial Space Marines anymore.

It's like beating a roid boss in Borderlands 2 with Guage's shield glitch active, You didn't beat them the glitch did.

As for deep strike it is a huge benefit to deep strike turn one.

Half your reserve units straight in your opponent's face d is overly unfair saying they genuinely believe outherwise is making themselves look very silly.

But the real blow bellow the belt is no scatter or mishaps. That's basically saying ISM get to set up half their army anywhere they want because "Bluuurh".

No one playing ISM since 6th edition has won a single game on their own merit. And I defy anyone who claims otherwise. I'm not saying they couldn't win fairly. I'm sure most ISM players could. I'm just saying wth Imperial Cheat Marines they don't have the chance to.

Remember I love Imperial Space Marines. I just hate the fact they've been ruined.

Out of curiosity for a CSM player, what are your thoughts when your units get deleted before you get to touch them by a unit sitting snugly in the corner eight or so feet away? I'm sure the feeling isn't that foreign to you.

Well firsly, you have made a faux assumption. I am not a "CSM" player. My game time is split fairly evenly between my Chaos, Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Eldar Harlequins, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids.

My Chaos Space Marines force is by far the largest of my armies, but thast's not a gaming preference, it's an artistic one. They are by far the most convertable and customisably army in 40K so I've been able to infuse more diversify and charactre into that force.

I also have some Genesteaer Cult sets but Ihaven,t put any together yet. I ran out of display space I will have some shiny new cabinets some time next week. They were suposed to be here already but the store fluft up my order. First they doubled my order. hen when I rang to correct it they cancelled the whole order. Any way they said this coming week for definite.

I do get a lot of infiltraters shooting me up. My brother Adam has lots of Wolf Scouts and they can be a pain from time to time. But hen my Dark Eldar are out using webway portals and mandrakes, Or my 'nids with their Raveners and Lictors. And even my CSM can get in on the fun if I roll Master of Deception (or I'm playing Huron) and I roll a good D3. So I've got no problem with infultrate.

Now as for first turn deep strike. It never happens when I play. Our game group voted and the motion to disallow the rule passed unanimously. We have too much respect for each other and the game than to use such a stupid broken rule,

And ust so you know Adam runs quite a lot of drop pods both with his Space Wolves and Ultra Marines and he always rolls for scatter and mishap. Entirely his own choice. Basically he says he likes to win because he out fought and out manoeuvred his opponent, not because he cheated.

Well at least that's one ISM player with some dignity and self respect. I mean it's a start right?

I didn't falsly assume anything, you own a CSM army and play them, you are a CSM player.
Getting shot up by an Infiltrating unit at 36' is hardly having units removed by something at the other end of the board.
Does your brother use Wulfen+TWC combinations?

Martel732 wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods are highly overrated.

I'm not so sure. They're incredibly powerful for how many points they cost and in my jealous opinion are probably the best transport in the game (points-to-utility-wise). They might not be great for BA but they sure are amazing for Codex: Space Marines and every other faction would probably very much like to have something similar that cost so few points.

Are they powerful? They strand the contents on foot. If the alpha strike fails, they are stranded and likely dead. Skyhammer pods are good because the contents are relentless. Gladius pods are good because they are free and obj sec. Standard old drop pod? I think Rhinos are better.

The Rhino is a good transport for sure but its fairly tame as far as transports go. An AV12 roadblock that almost can't mishap and gets your shooty dudes instantly in range with little opportunity (for most factions) to retaliate is a bit better in my opinion. Sure it's not great for a lot of units and really shines in a couple of detachments/formations, but even without any additional special rules it's amazing for a few units. In a Rhino your guys aren't unlikely to end up on foot and taking casualties before using those expensive shooting weapons, a Drop Pod at least allows you to do what damage you can before (again, most factions) can deal with them. For the price I think they're an absolute steal and a list built around them sorely tempts me to collect SM one of these days.

Which units do you think? Because I've pounded most drop sternguard lists since 5th ed. The bottom line is that the marine list in general has limited firepower, except for a few specific exceptions.

Those Sternguard you mentioned of course benefit greatly, Devastator Centurions, Devastators with certain weapon (Grav-cannons aren't so bad as most because of Salvo, Heavy Flamers if one was inclined toward non-TAC loadouts) and even Tactical Squads get a chance to use that special weapon and perhaps that grav-cannon if they went so deep into the rabbit hole, and a full squad of Rapid-fire Bolters in addition is okay against some things. Now I know that Tac Marines aren't the shootiest thing around but if you've got to or want to take them you're probably giving them a transport and the Pod is a nice option. As you say, SM haven't got the most formidable shooting power around but being able to drop what they do have where it's needed helps to amplify it by reducing the chance you lose your dudes before they shoot the scary stuff.

Against armies like yours and mine, a Drop Pod isn't so bad because it let's you swarm them in melee after they drop and we probably aren't using any hugely expensive or scary single units, but against armies that aren't as proficient in melee (ha!) or are inclined to expensive units they can really do damage.

I'm going on about the 2 main points that make ISM droppods unfair because this is a deep assaults thread and however loosely vanilla drop pods fit this threads theme and subject matter.

Kept telling people to shut up about drop pods but stupid is as stupid does, So I decided to take the bait change tack and tell people exctly how I feel about stupid broken ISM drop pods.

When Istarted this thread I intended dip in. Grab some opinions and take interested parties over to another thread to thrash out some usable rules.

Instead we're here doing what's wrong with drop pods.

I know their not the worst thing wrong with lmperial Space Marines but only a very silly person would use that as an excuse or defence for somthing.

Göring proably wasn't as evil as hitler, but he was still a sick nazi pile of crap who acted as an enabler to some of the worst atrocities against humanity that have ever been perpetrated during the history of this truly messed up planet.

I'll tell you what I'll do. Because we've moved all relevant information to this project, to another thread, I was gonna request they close this one.

But I'll leave it open till someone can give a couple of reasonable arguments as to why Codex: Imperial Space Marines is more fair and balanced than not. And I'll give my reasons why it isn't.

I'm gonna take a leep now and say no was got cack to say about ISM that would stand up to even the lightest level of scrutiny or cross examination.

So there's the invite let us hear the wisdom of the deluded

As for Adam. He has both Wolfen and Thunder Wolf Cavalry. Why?

Does he run them as a combination to get first turn charges?

He hasn't against me. In fact I did nor not know they could do that. Is it a formation buff? Let us know the mechanics behind it.

Oh, and in the Shed of Dread we could make sure he didnt have the legs for it. We've got table enough for 10ft X 10ft, and way, way, way more than enough scenery.

How far can they go, Do they get to infiltrate first?

Hmmm, infiltrate could be problematic.

well if we couldn't find a away to prevent it and it looked like using that tactic was screwing up the ballance, he'd stop using it, that's the kind of guy he is, the kind of guys and gals we all are.

Our group prefers an even playing field and a strong narative. It's about everyone having fun and playing their part in the story, not winning at any cost. Anyone who thinks the latter, is an idiot hwo hasn't bothered reading "the most important rule in Warhmmer 40K" caption.

If someone's clearly bummed out because they can't seem to get into the game, then core rule or not somthing's gotta change. I meen come on if you wouln't do that for a mate then you're no mate at all and a pretty gakky person in my book.