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Genestealer Cults have enough tools to cover pretty much any base, but they have no good way to plonk Flyers - Leman Russ Eradicators are the best they can do, and while they're not a horrible answer, they're not great either.

I'm guessing there are probably better tools in the Tyranids or AM books. Problem is, nobody plays those round here and I don't know much about either army - so if any Nids or AM players can offer some advice I'd appreciate it. Is the basic Codex enough to get some anti-air into my GSC? If not, what are the best supplements to go for?

Also, specifically for Nids players - would it be feasible to run a Cult Ambush army alongside Flyrants? Specifically, are the Flyrants tough enough to survive two turns of abuse on their own while the rest of my army sits in Reserve and Ambushes stuff?

Thanks!

Flyrants are definitely your best bet for anti-air, just remember that a standard Flyrant with 2x TWLDevourers is 235pts. As for durability, sure, as long as your opponent hasn't kitted themselves out specifically to deal with them you'll certainly last that first turn with a pair of FLyrants on the board.

 Imateria wrote:
Flyrants are definitely your best bet for anti-air, just remember that a standard Flyrant with 2x TWLDevourers is 235pts. As for durability, sure, as long as your opponent hasn't kitted themselves out specifically to deal with them you'll certainly last that first turn with a pair of FLyrants on the board.

Good stuff, thanks! Is the basic Nids Codex enough to able to run Flyrants effectively, or are there supplements I should be looking at? Point cost isn't really an issue - GSC units are disgustingly cheap and cheerful, I can probably fit a good Cult Ambush army around 700-1000pts of allied Nids at 1850pts.

The flyrant with two twin-linked devourers is actually 230, not 235 - though a lot of people tend to take electroshock grubs for a haywire flamer at only 10 more pts. The codex is all you'll need to run them in a CAD or allies, but if you wanna use 15pt mucolid spores as troops make sure to pick up the free dataslate from black library.

There are other options for AA though, an aegis with a quad-gun isn't a terrible bet as it ensures your cultists can hide behind it t1 for a 2+ cover. There also the guard AA vehicle whose name escapes me...

Benlisted wrote:
There also the guard AA vehicle whose name escapes me...

The Hydra? I was looking at those - I think there's a formation that allows me to bring those alongside some Russes without bothering with Guard infantry, which would be great (not that Guard infantry are necessarily a bad idea, it's just I'm already committed to painting 160 GSC infantry models and I'd rather not add more because I'm lazy). The only issue I'd have with them is they're perma-Skyfire, which I don't know if I like. The Flyrant seems like a more general purpose option. Plus the Flyrant is far more awesome than some boring old tanks. I might look into the Fortifications though.

3 Vendettas from the Emperor’s Spear Aerial Company, (although dont use DftS). And if you want to cover all your bases throw in some Sisters of silence in them.

Without a doubt flyrants are the answer here. Take two in a CAD with 2 Mucolids as troops for 510 points. All that requires is the codex and free Mucolid dataslate off of BL. At 1850 that gives you plenty of points for a Cult Insurrection, which I highly reccomend as it lets you infiltrate and therefore cult ambush turn 1 instead of waiting on reserves.

 jifel wrote:
At 1850 that gives you plenty of points for a Cult Insurrection, which I highly reccomend as it lets you infiltrate and therefore cult ambush turn 1 instead of waiting on reserves.

That's what I'm buying towards; all infantry with a Brood Cycle, a couple of Uprisings, three Patriarchs (for bubbles, one in the Insurrection and two in a CAD) and a Primus to draw fire/ provide Hatred when the Ambush comes in.

My thinking is, leave a couple of tough units on the board, enough to survive a turn of abuse from Scatbikes or whatever, then Reserve everything else and let it Ambush as and when it arrives. Seems to be working reasonably well so far. I'm rolling 20-odd Reserves dice on turn 2 so I'm all but assured of getting a fair chunk of my army in, and it solves the problem of trying to deploy stuff so it doesn't get hosed during the first turn if you go second/ get Seized.

Fair. What I've been doing is just deploying the whole army in cover with shrouded and far away from the enemy out of range/LOS, then going into the shadows turn 1 so I don't have to roll reserves.

2 flyrants + 2 spores in a CAD isn't bad.

If later on you decide you need more flyrants per detachment, then tyranids have the Hive Fleet Detachment in the 'Shield of Baal - Leviathan' campaign book.

It's similar to a CAD, with the main difference being 1 - 3 HQs, and 3 - 9 Troops. So you can get 3 flyrants + 3 spores per detachment.
Plus it trades Objective Secured for re-rolls of instinctive behaviour results. Objective Secured is better, but if you're only using the detachment for mucolids and flyrants then you're not losing anything.

Take the Levethon Baal? 3 HQ 3 Troop CAD also (Some correct me where this is from)

3 Dakka Flyrants with 3 Mucolids (15pt troop that is actually worth it).

Two Tyrants have been working for me just fine. Seams to make for a very flexible army to play.

 BBAP wrote:

 jifel wrote:
At 1850 that gives you plenty of points for a Cult Insurrection, which I highly reccomend as it lets you infiltrate and therefore cult ambush turn 1 instead of waiting on reserves.

That's what I'm buying towards; all infantry with a Brood Cycle, a couple of Uprisings, three Patriarchs (for bubbles, one in the Insurrection and two in a CAD) and a Primus to draw fire/ provide Hatred when the Ambush comes in.

My thinking is, leave a couple of tough units on the board, enough to survive a turn of abuse from Scatbikes or whatever, then Reserve everything else and let it Ambush as and when it arrives. Seems to be working reasonably well so far. I'm rolling 20-odd Reserves dice on turn 2 so I'm all but assured of getting a fair chunk of my army in, and it solves the problem of trying to deploy stuff so it doesn't get hosed during the first turn if you go second/ get Seized.

You understand that you can cult ambush on the first turn if the unit can infiltrate? Or deploy defensively and return to shadows and you don't need to worry about reserve rolls at all.

Timeshadow wrote:
You understand that you can cult ambush on the first turn if the unit can infiltrate? Or deploy defensively and return to shadows and you don't need to worry about reserve rolls at all.

See, that's not how I read it. It says the unit can choose to **deploy** using the Cult Ambush rules, which suggests to me they should be deployed in the Infiltrate part of the deployment phase using whatever they roll for their Ambush - 1 is anywhere within 6" of my table edge, 2 is anywhere within 6" of whatever board edge you roll up, etc etc. As far as I can see there's nothing cut and dried for either interpretation, and in cases like that I prefer to go for the most conservative reading because it means less arguments.

 BBAP wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
You understand that you can cult ambush on the first turn if the unit can infiltrate? Or deploy defensively and return to shadows and you don't need to worry about reserve rolls at all.

See, that's not how I read it. It says the unit can choose to **deploy** using the Cult Ambush rules, which suggests to me they should be deployed in the Infiltrate part of the deployment phase using whatever they roll for their Ambush - 1 is anywhere within 6" of my table edge, 2 is anywhere within 6" of whatever board edge you roll up, etc etc. As far as I can see there's nothing cut and dried for either interpretation, and in cases like that I prefer to go for the most conservative reading because it means less arguments.

Cult Ambush is an Additional rule that acts like infiltrate but it isn't, you "choose" to Cult Ambush then you follow those rules.

Cult Ambush rules is as follow, "Instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally" "Cult Ambush units move onto the table as describe for other reserves"

To me it ISNT Infiltrate at all is a reserves roll, and it wouldn't make sense too anyways b.c if you are going 2nd and you infiltrate but you rolled a "6" for Cult Ambush how can you charge? Its not your turn.

Edit for grammar and spelling.

"Units that have this special rule that INFILTRATE or arrive by reserves".

This quote from the GSC codex allows any unit that can infiltrate (ie on first turn) to use cult ambush.

Now it is some times more efficient not to do so and play more defensively espushly if you are not going first, but the option is definitly there which is why it's fun to consider adding a small allied Inq for Coteaz to help prevent the opponent from stealing ini and improve your chance to steal.

Timeshadow wrote:
"Units that have this special rule that INFILTRATE or arrive by reserves".

This quote from the GSC codex allows any unit that can infiltrate (ie on first turn) to use cult ambush.

Infiltrate doesn't happen on the first turn. It happens during deployment; Infiltrators are deployed last, after every other unit has been deployed, but it's still during the deployment phase.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Cult Ambush is an Additional rule that acts like infiltrate but it isn't, you "choose" to Cult Ambush then you follow those rules.

Here's what it says in my epub Codex:

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."

With respect to deployment at the start of the game, here's the relevant bits:

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate [...] can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table [..] instead of deploying [...] normally."

Your unit has to Infiltrate. It can roll on the Cult Ambush table when doing so, and deploy using whatever special method the roll dictates, but it has to Infiltrate in the first instance to get that roll. It's a modified Infiltrate, but it's still Infiltrate, so all the usual rules and restrictions apply.

Flyrants and GSC go together like peanut butter and chocolate.

Though the RAW vs RAI is contentious, the Insurrection probably means improved reserves for the Flyrants, who provide both aerial support as well as Warp Charge for the GSC, whom have an excellent discipline but tend to be starved for Warp Charge.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Though the RAW vs RAI is contentious, the Insurrection probably means improved reserves for the Flyrants, who provide both aerial support as well as Warp Charge for the GSC, whom have an excellent discipline but tend to be starved for Warp Charge.

See, I don't find that. I run 3 ML2 Patriarchs at a minimum and the 6+d6 tends to be enough to see me through games. Again though, my pool of opponents is pretty limited, the most WC I've ever faced was 11 in an IH deathstar list, but even at that I never felt overfaced or anything. I could still get powers off and Deny, I just couldn't rely on it, which is fine because your psychic phase is a bonus rather than an integral part of your strategy.

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Though the RAW vs RAI is contentious, the Insurrection probably means improved reserves for the Flyrants, who provide both aerial support as well as Warp Charge for the GSC, whom have an excellent discipline but tend to be starved for Warp Charge.

See, I don't find that. I run 3 ML2 Patriarchs at a minimum and the 6+d6 tends to be enough to see me through games. Again though, my pool of opponents is pretty limited, the most WC I've ever faced was 11 in an IH deathstar list, but even at that I never felt overfaced or anything. I could still get powers off and Deny, I just couldn't rely on it, which is fine because your psychic phase is a bonus rather than an integral part of your strategy.

I really like to have 8+d6 min if at all possible with any build where I am using psykers. That seems to be the tipping point between reliably using my psychic phase and sputtering out or being denied. Most of my builds have 10-12. I like going for the crouching magus plus 2 others in a separate cad with a few OS neophytes. If I have the points I might upgrade one or both to patriarch but it depends. Then add allied or cad nids for anti air flyrant/s and a zoanthrope or two depending. The summon power is so good it is always something I aim for as my first priority.

The difference between 6 and 8 psychic dice isn't massive though. If you prefer 8 that's grand, but you can run the army just fine on 6 if you're ever looking for points to shave.

 BBAP wrote:
Genestealer Cults have enough tools to cover pretty much any base, but they have no good way to plonk Flyers - Leman Russ Eradicators are the best they can do, and while they're not a horrible answer, they're not great either.

I'm guessing there are probably better tools in the Tyranids or AM books. Problem is, nobody plays those round here and I don't know much about either army - so if any Nids or AM players can offer some advice I'd appreciate it. Is the basic Codex enough to get some anti-air into my GSC? If not, what are the best supplements to go for?

I play AM. And I think I there are a couple of formations that could help out GSC. If your looking specifically to take down flyers there are a couple of ways to do it.

1. Emperor's Shield Platoon (Minimum 315pts)

1 Sentinel (can add more)
5 X 10 man infantry squads* (each squad can take one heavy weapons and one special weapon)

* Before warlord traits are taken/rolled, you can "combined squad" your infantry. Basically you can combine the 10 man units to any other units that have that same rule.
So you can have 2 20 man squads, and a 10 man squad or a 30 man squad and a 20 man squad.

Now if you have heavy weapons in each squad you can group them like 3 lascannons and 3 grenade launchers, 2 Autocannons and 2 grenade launchers.

Now you can give them orders. Lots of different orders but they are situational. Main ones i would focus on is FRFSRF. Essentially your lasguns can fire twice in the shooting phase. (Bonus if there is a unit in Rapid Fire Range). Another one is Bring it down order. This give all weapons in the unit monster hunter and tank hunter. 5pts Grenade Launchers can now take down flyers. So you can boost your special & heavy weapons profiles with the orders you issue.

Add psyker with prescience and your re-rolling misses.

2. Hydra Tank (70 pts) with a Engineseer (40vpts).

Each Hydra Autocannon has a Heavy 2, Skyfire (TL) profile, there are two on this tank so your getting Heavy 4, Skyfire (TL).

If your opponent doesn't have Flyers, your the Enginseer to use POTMS to fire the weapon at regular ground units at full BS.
Also Engineseer can restore hull points, if need be.

3. Vendetta (170 pts)

3 TL Lascannons

I haven't played out the Platoon Squad yet. This was recently introduced to me and I'm gonna give it a go in the near future. It is the most expensive of the 3 but i also think it could be fun and flexible.

I don't think you can PotMS a Skyfire weapon to shoot at ground targets with full BS.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't think you can PotMS a Skyfire weapon to shoot at ground targets with full BS.

hmmm. 2nd opinion?

I made a YMDC Thread about this.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a YMDC Thread about this.

thanks, I appreciate it. I actually just saw a couple minutes ago. I also asked my buddy of mine and he said no as well.