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Just the term "Dakka" is orky. Orks literally scream Dakka when they shoot things. So here is the question; Why do orks lack Dakka?

Don't get me wrong, certain units do have enough dakka. Warbikers spring to mind. However, a lot of other Ork units completely lack any noticeable dakka or useful dakka.

a Unit of Shoota Boyz (10) can put out 20 S4 shots at 18in range. But those 20 shots are BS2 so only 6-7 hits and against T4 models that is 3 wounds. against a 3+ save thats 1 dead model.

A unit of Tankbustas (9) can put out 9 S8 AP3 rokkitz at 24in range. but again only 3 of those will hit. But even worse for these guys is that they aren't cheap and have no armor so they die in droves.

Big shootas, Supa Shootas and shootas in general need a buff to stay relevant in this edition. So with that in mind, without a point increase would it make a difference, make no difference or make Ork units OPish if they got 1 extra shot per weapon for most of their ranged weapons.
IE: Shootas would be Assault 3, Big shootas assault 4, Rokkitz either gain TL or assault 2.

I think it would at least add more flavor to the codex and make it more worthwhile to purchase that ridiculous Shoota on boyz.

The Ork Codex has a LOT of issues. Lacking Dakka is one of them, though admittedly, they are a more CC oriented army.

I don't think a blanket quick-fix like that is going to make Orks good. You need to go more in-depth than that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Ork Codex has a LOT of issues. Lacking Dakka is one of them, though admittedly, they are a more CC oriented army.

I don't think a blanket quick-fix like that is going to make Orks good. You need to go more in-depth than that.

OHh trust me I am well aware What I am asking is whether or not it would fix a bit of the problems, none of the problems or annoy most players and make them think Orks are OP. Personally I think it would be a step in the right direction. Big shootas are never taken atm in any situation where you can take a Rokkit because of bad BS, S and lack of AP but if you added an extra shot or even possibly DOUBLED there shots they might see some action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I Disagree about the CC aspect though. Orks are not even good at CC anymore. No armor, no invuls, hard to access FNP, Average WS, horrible initiative, Mob Rule. The game is literally built against orks in CC right now.

I suppose. Considering the Ork's terrible Ballistic Skill and generally slip-shod state at the moment, I wouldn't object to playing Orks with most guns having +1 Shot (though I do think Rokkits should be TL, unless they were already TL, in which case they can be 2 shots non-TL (which is a bit conservative, I know, but I feel it's appropriate to be conservative when working on brew rather than too much (in stark contrast to what I've done before, but hey ))).

SemperMortis wrote:
a Unit of Shoota Boyz (10) can put out 20 S4 shots at 18in range. But those 20 shots are BS2 so only 6-7 hits and against T4 models that is 3 wounds. against a 3+ save thats 1 dead model.

Do you think marines have enough dakka?

a Unit of Tac Marines (10) can put out 10 S4 shots at 18in range. Those 10 shots are BS4 so only 6-7 hits and against T4 models that is 3 wounds. against a 3+ save thats 1 dead model.

The difference is, you shouldn't be taking 10 boyz. Take 20 boyz, then you're killing twice as many models as a Tac squad would, and for fewer points.

Orks don't lack dakka. The whole idea of Orks is that they just spray bullets randomly, hence the low BS. Bring enough boyz, fire enough bullets, job done.

I'm not saying Orks aren't under-powered and don't need a buff. But your comparison isn't fair.

The previous ork codex didn't lack dakka at all in the context of the other codexes in that time.
It is the new codex that is bad it was actually a nerf from the old one, and the other codexes that made it worse by nearly killing off the game with their power creep.

As a reference. Orks do not only lack dakka, they also suck in close combat. Just look at Wulfen (~ Nob point cost), or Genestealers (~ork boy point cost). : \

I think this goes right back to your Loota thread.
I'm for the extra shots for all Ork weapons. I'm also for extra, extra shots when Da WAAAGH is called. (Not all weapons though)Which I think isn't too OP for Orks at all given BS2. I'd be happy with BS3 Orks and all their weapons staying the same as well. To me and with out any math hammer to support it, I would think the hits would even out as the same as extra shots. Failing any of the above being ano option I'd be well pleased with more big shootas available to my mob of boys. I don't agree that Rockits should become assault two. That would in my opinion make Tankbustas too good.
For me it's about making boys mobs able to do more.
Being the Weedy git I am, I'd be thrilled for a big Shoota mob. as an elite choice. how cool would that be!

Na the game doesn't need to become more killy. What is needed is a nerf on the insane things.
Buffing things like ork shooting would just result in the core units like ork boyz and normal tacicals to be completely useless.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Na the game doesn't need to become more killy. What is needed is a nerf on the insane things.
Buffing things like ork shooting would just result in the core units like ork boyz and normal tacicals to be completely useless.

The genie is already out of the bottle and unless they can go back and undo all the T6 2+ armor MCs, multiple wound T5 mounted units, necrons with super FNP, psychic shiananigans, 3+ rerollable jink-a-palooza, etc. Orks are going to need moar dakka to put those preferential treatment gitz back in their place and set things right with Orks being #1 . With being BS2 nearly across the board, adding more shots is less harmful to the game because 2/3rds of those shots will miss. You could double the shots on a big shoota and end up with the same shooting effectiveness of a space marine (without tactical doctrines) using a heavy bolter.

I don't understand how Boys would become useless I'm advocating that they get to shoot more.

I've faced TAU off and on over this last two years so my reasoning behind more dakka is just that to me it would seem ..balanced. Not to mention how many Eldar are super killy posts and articles I've seen.

I have no idea how to help boys mobs in close combat in any useful manner. Well, nothing that isn't the return of the old choppa rule...

 oldzoggy wrote:
Na the game doesn't need to become more killy. What is needed is a nerf on the insane things.
Buffing things like ork shooting would just result in the core units like ork boyz and normal tacicals to be completely useless.

^^This.

Stop the power creep. Nerf OP units. That's the dream.

Not making anything useless, just making troops useable but not OP for any one faction.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Na the game doesn't need to become more killy. What is needed is a nerf on the insane things.
Buffing things like ork shooting would just result in the core units like ork boyz and normal tacicals to be completely useless.

^^This.

Stop the power creep. Nerf OP units. That's the dream.

Not making anything useless, just making troops useable but not OP for any one faction.

True, but as has been pointed out many times in the past, if GW did nerf things to where Orks are or even halfway to where Orks are you would see a HUUUGE decrease in the hobby as people got mad at GW for making their $200 purchase garbage.

I don't think increasing Ork shooting would ruin Ork boyz. Pretty much the opposite. If Shootas were Assault 3 they would be more likely to be taken.

As far as the person talking about how a Tactical Marine squad is about the same and blah blah blah take twice as many boyz!

Well here is the problem. If I take 20 Shoota Boyz im spending 140pts on a unit that has a max range of 18 (24 if I move) will never be able to get the most out of that range because to many models won't be IN range from the start, and if I move them out of cover they get riddled with bullets and die because T4 with a 6+ save isn't good at all.

Big Shootas should be Assault 4 at the very least, and I would heavily argue for Assault 5.

Supa Shootas should have more shots as well. The DakkaJet is garbage because it does what orks are already good at but it does it for more points and on a crappy platform that either jinks every turn or dies in a fireball (AV10) Making Supa Shootas Assault 5 or 6 means they can actually accomplish something before getting destroyed.

Dakkagunz don't really need a buff that badly though 1 more shot would always be welcome.

In the end, Orks are supposed to be the Dice army. When we shoot we should throw a bucket of dice, and at the moment a number of other armies are beating us in that area :(

The problem is that GW hates orks... Or minimum doesn't care about them. The actual codex (a nerfed version of previous one, that was no op)) and the last joke supplement are a perfect sample of GW hating orks.

The army is fun on lore and have impressive miniatures, but the rules are garbage

SemperMortis wrote:
As far as the person talking about how a Tactical Marine squad is about the same and blah blah blah take twice as many boyz!

Well here is the problem. If I take 20 Shoota Boyz im spending 140pts on a unit that has a max range of 18 (24 if I move) will never be able to get the most out of that range because to many models won't be IN range from the start, and if I move them out of cover they get riddled with bullets and die because T4 with a 6+ save isn't good at all.

Why start a discussion about something if you're going to be this dismissive of someone who doesn't say what you want to hear?

Your complaint was that Orks don't have enough dakka. I pointed out that 10 Orks as you described have exactly as much dakka as 10 marines.

Your original post wasn't complaining about how tough Orks are, or their crappy t-shirt save, it was about their level of dakka. Your suggested change was to increase their dakka, not increase their armour save. Don't move the goalposts.

I never even said I disagreed (ideally I'd prefer a nerf to everything else, but it's not really likely!) - I was literally asking you, do you think marines lack dakka, because they have the same amount of dakka as Orks.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
As far as the person talking about how a Tactical Marine squad is about the same and blah blah blah take twice as many boyz!

Well here is the problem. If I take 20 Shoota Boyz im spending 140pts on a unit that has a max range of 18 (24 if I move) will never be able to get the most out of that range because to many models won't be IN range from the start, and if I move them out of cover they get riddled with bullets and die because T4 with a 6+ save isn't good at all.

Why start a discussion about something if you're going to be this dismissive of someone who doesn't say what you want to hear?

Your complaint was that Orks don't have enough dakka. I pointed out that 10 Orks as you described have exactly as much dakka as 10 marines.

Your original post wasn't complaining about how tough Orks are, or their crappy t-shirt save, it was about their level of dakka. Your suggested change was to increase their dakka, not increase their armour save. Don't move the goalposts.

I never even said I disagreed (ideally I'd prefer a nerf to everything else, but it's not really likely!) - I was literally asking you, do you think marines lack dakka, because they have the same amount of dakka as Orks.

Without moving the goal posts, there is a lot more to consider when talking about Orks to SM then just number of shots and ballistic skill. Namely your getting more leadership, way better armor, Chapter tactics and a number of other boons which make that S4 AP5 bolter a lot better.

Orks are supposed to throw dice at the problem and that just doesn't happen unless we increase mob size, which we can easily do, but as pointed out they become unwieldy and will never be able to use all those shots because short range and lack of LOS caused by enormous blocks of infantry.

Take the Ork Dakkajet for example. 2 TL Supa Shootas putting out 6 shots at S6 is nice but for the same cost a SM can take a Stormtalon which get a TL Assault Cannon (S6 AP4 Rending) and a TL Heavy bolter. Oh and the Stormtalon can hover, gains +1 to jink and has +2 ballistic skill as well as AV11 to the Dakkajets AV10.

I am ok with Ork vehicles and models being flimsy, but they need to be able to put the hurt out before they go down in flames and as you can see, point for point orks don't have the dakka.

Ork Boys are 6 PPM, yis? So you can afford two Boys for every Space Marine. While they might be less durable, even with double the bodies, they have a lot more offensive potential.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ork Boys are 6 PPM, yis? So you can afford two Boys for every Space Marine. While they might be less durable, even with double the bodies, they have a lot more offensive potential.

Talking about shootas, so 7pts a model

Lets put it this way, against the most annoying unit in the game.

10 SMs take fire from a MSU Scat Bike squad. 12 shots, 8 hits 7 wounds. Against the SMs 3+ armor that is 2 dead Marines

20 Orks take fire from a MSU Scat bike Squad. 12 shots, 8 hits 7 wounds, 7 Dead orks. Mob rule kicks in if LD check is failed. D6 more dead boyz so lets say 2. So now that unit of 20 boyz is down to 11 and the SM squad is down to 8.

So yes, you can afford 2 boyz for every SM but you will on average lose more then 4 boyz to every marine that dies because 3+ armor and better leadership.

To add insult to injury the Shoota is ranged 18. So basically Ork Boyz die in droves before they can even get a chance to unleash their payload of mediocre firepower.

I think the problem is in the list building and expectation department. My friend is playing min/maxed white scars right now. This makes 15 to 20 shootaboys far more durable and fairly competitive against his little squads of 3. However, Orks as a takes all comers..I'm not sure I think that mythical creature exists.
At least it's been working that way for me.

Also, Orks are Ld 7, giving them a 58% chance to pass their Leadership test.

So that's 42% chance to fail, times 3.5 (average of d6) S4 hits is 1.47 hits, is .735 wounds, is .6125 dead Orks with their T-Shirt save.

Not 2.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, Orks are Ld 7, giving them a 58% chance to pass their Leadership test.

So that's 42% chance to fail, times 3.5 (average of d6) S4 hits is 1.47 hits, is .735 wounds, is .6125 dead Orks with their T-Shirt save.

Not 2.

It is AUTO HITS so its 3.5 hits at S4 versus T4 which means 1.75 wounds or rounding up 2 WOUNDS And against 6+ armor that is usually 2 dead orks.

But that is not that important. The important part is that you lose to many ork boyz before you get within range and even when you do get in range your dishing out 2 shots per boy at S4 AP6 on a BS2 platform.

So again I have to ask, Would adding an extra shot to Shootas or hell even DOUBLING their amount of shots really be a big boost?

Also, Orks are Ld 7, giving them a 58% chance to pass their Leadership test.

So that's 42% chance to fail, times 3.5 (average of d6) S4 hits is 1.47 hits, is .735 wounds, is .6125 dead Orks with their T-Shirt save.

Not 2.

Well, no one ever told my boss nobs that. And they're not known for restraint... which means they murder no less than 4 boys just about every time like it's a competition or something.

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, Orks are Ld 7, giving them a 58% chance to pass their Leadership test.

So that's 42% chance to fail, times 3.5 (average of d6) S4 hits is 1.47 hits, is .735 wounds, is .6125 dead Orks with their T-Shirt save.

Not 2.

It is AUTO HITS so its 3.5 hits at S4 versus T4 which means 1.75 wounds or rounding up 2 WOUNDS And against 6+ armor that is usually 2 dead orks.

But that is not that important. The important part is that you lose to many ork boyz before you get within range and even when you do get in range your dishing out 2 shots per boy at S4 AP6 on a BS2 platform.

So again I have to ask, Would adding an extra shot to Shootas or hell even DOUBLING their amount of shots really be a big boost?

42% chance of failing the Leadership test. That's what I'm multiplying 3.5 by.

And I dunno-let's see. That's 4 shots at 18", or 4/3 hits per Boy, for 2/3 wounds against most models, for 2/9 dead Marine per Boy. Or 4.5 Boys per dead Marine, in one round of shooting. At 7 PPM, you can fit in 2 Boys per Marine. Whereas for Space Marines, it's 1 shot at 24" (2 at 12") for 2/3 of a hit, 1/3 of a wound, for 1/3 of a Dead boy per Marine at 24". Or 3 Marines per dead Boy. That's 42 points as compared to 31.5, though the Marines have longer range. (Rapid Fire is negated by the Orks being Assault-a fair trade-off, I think.)

That makes Ork Boys with Shootas shootier than Marines. Which, honestly? I do think is too much. Orks are a CC army, they should be good in CC, not shooting. (Exceptions for certain units, of course, but not basic troops.) Now, they AREN'T good in CC, which should be addressed, but doubling their shoota shots is not a good fix, methinks.

Orks are just way too fragile for the point cost in the current meta of high rate of fire and big nasty fast close combat blobz.
A 42%* chance of losing a unit of loota's etc that runs of the table due to losing 25% of a unit is really bad.
Buffing their shooting attacks or close combat attacks isn't really going to fix that.

But meh we all know this fr years now. So the discussion isn't that interesting. What is however is that we can now buy "looted" ruins for 20 points, making our shooty stuff suddenly a lot more durable and giving us a ton of modelling opportunities. : )

*I did not check the calculations.

 JNAProductions wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, Orks are Ld 7, giving them a 58% chance to pass their Leadership test.

So that's 42% chance to fail, times 3.5 (average of d6) S4 hits is 1.47 hits, is .735 wounds, is .6125 dead Orks with their T-Shirt save.

Not 2.

It is AUTO HITS so its 3.5 hits at S4 versus T4 which means 1.75 wounds or rounding up 2 WOUNDS And against 6+ armor that is usually 2 dead orks.

But that is not that important. The important part is that you lose to many ork boyz before you get within range and even when you do get in range your dishing out 2 shots per boy at S4 AP6 on a BS2 platform.

So again I have to ask, Would adding an extra shot to Shootas or hell even DOUBLING their amount of shots really be a big boost?

42% chance of failing the Leadership test. That's what I'm multiplying 3.5 by.

And I dunno-let's see. That's 4 shots at 18", or 4/3 hits per Boy, for 2/3 wounds against most models, for 2/9 dead Marine per Boy. Or 4.5 Boys per dead Marine, in one round of shooting. At 7 PPM, you can fit in 2 Boys per Marine. Whereas for Space Marines, it's 1 shot at 24" (2 at 12") for 2/3 of a hit, 1/3 of a wound, for 1/3 of a Dead boy per Marine at 24". Or 3 Marines per dead Boy. That's 42 points as compared to 31.5, though the Marines have longer range. (Rapid Fire is negated by the Orks being Assault-a fair trade-off, I think.)

That makes Ork Boys with Shootas shootier than Marines. Which, honestly? I do think is too much. Orks are a CC army, they should be good in CC, not shooting. (Exceptions for certain units, of course, but not basic troops.) Now, they AREN'T good in CC, which should be addressed, but doubling their shoota shots is not a good fix, methinks.

6 Boyz (42pts) put out 12 shots (18), 4 hits, 2 wound. against a 3+ = 2/3rd chance to Kill. Or put another way, 9 boyz to ensure 1 dead Marine.
3 SMs (42pts) put out 3 shots (24in) 2 hits, 1 wound = 1 dead Ork.

Put another way, so long as the SM player liquefies enough orks before they get in range he will be getting his points back on Tacticals, And once they close the distance to 12 Those 3 SMs are killing 2 orks per shooting attack because of Rapid Fire, OR conversely they could be smart and close the distance to 6, fire 3 pistols for 1 more dead Ork boy and then CHARGE. Getting 6 Attacks on the charge, 3 hits, 1 more dead Ork Boy, the handful of orks left are now hitting on 4s and wounding on 5S! ruining there one advantage over Marines, Furious Charge. Lets run this little scenario

9 Marines vs 18 Shoota boyz.

9 marines get 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds = 3 dead orks. Orks close to 18 (at least 4-6 wont be in range yet) with 11 models shoot 22 shots, 7 hits 4 wounds 1 dead Marine. (If all get in range by a miracle thats 30 shots 10 hits 5 wounds about 2 dead Marines)

Marines hose them down again 8 Marines 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds, 2-3 dead Orkz. Orks close again to 12inches, ALL in range now for sure, so 12 Orks = 24 shots ,8 hits 4 wounds 1 dead Marine.

Now the Marines have a choice, go double dakka or try for the charge and deny Orks furious charge. For the purposes of Dakka lets say they stand and shoot. 7 Marines alive now = 14 shots 9 hits, 4-5 Dead Orkz. Lets say 4, So Morale Check, lets say they pass this one. They close the distance to 6, fire 16 shots 5 hits 2.5 wounds about 1 dead Marine. CHARGE OVERWATCH. 6 Marines put out 12 shots 2 hits, 1 more dead Ork boy. So 7 Orks get in CC against 6 Marines. Marines swing first, 6 attacks, 3 hits 1 wound 1 dead Ork. 6 orks on the charge get 18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds = 1-2 dead Space Marines. Marines Pass leadership, next phase. 4 Marines left alive 4 attacks 2 hits 1 wound 1 dead Boy. 5 Orks = 10 attacks 5 hits, now wounding on 5s so 1 wound = NO DEAD MARINES. Orks test leadership at 6, fail, Mob rule doesn't work because no Nob and they run away at Initiative 2, get caught and swept by Marines. YAY!

Of course if they decide to stay at Maximum range of 18 and just trade shots, those 12 Remaining boyz Versus the 7 SMs will continue to whittle each other down and all the Marine player has to do is close the range to 12 to really start dishing out some punishment.

SM Tacticals are not renowned for their dakka, Orks used to be. Orks also don't have chapter tactics which drastically increases the use of bolter in a number of different chapters. Regardless, it is my opinion that orks need more dakka.

And you're proposing to double their shots. Run the math with THAT.

SemperMortis wrote:
mathhammer shoota boyz vs Tacticals...

This is totally irrelevant . It isn't shooting tactical marines that are dominating the current edition. Mathammering boyz to tac marines is a 5th edition mind set ( unless they come with a free rhino).
Its Eldar jetbikes, spiders, Tau suits, necron decurion warriors, Genestealer hybrids, knights, space marine bikes or wulfs on wulfs that you should compare them with since these things are the new backbone of the armies you will face.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And you're proposing to double their shots. Run the math with THAT.

I don't have to, I know they will then be BETTER at shooting then space Marines. But lets put that in perspective. To be good at shooting those ork boyz have to specialize (Buy shootas) in shooting and sacrifice CC ability in order to do so (Lose +1 attack because of CC weapons) They ALSO are still squishy and die to a stiff breeze.

So yes, I think that is fine because again, in that last example I was comparing Ork Shoota Boyz against Tactical Marines, Tac Marines who are considered a TAX unit! LOL

So basic Ork troops-for one point per model, bringing them to half the cost of a Space Marine-should be better than Space Marines at shooting, point for point? No, I don't think that maps out. I'm fine with, say, Flash Gitz being better shooters than Tac Marines, but basic Boys? Should not be.

Especially since Boyz have better attacks-two, as compared to one, which even at S3 is better than one at S4. (Hitting the same, so one S4 hit is .5 wounds on a T4 model, whereas two S3 hits is .66 wounds.)

 JNAProductions wrote:
So basic Ork troops-for one point per model, bringing them to half the cost of a Space Marine-should be better than Space Marines at shooting, point for point? No, I don't think that maps out. I'm fine with, say, Flash Gitz being better shooters than Tac Marines, but basic Boys? Should not be.

Especially since Boyz have better attacks-two, as compared to one, which even at S3 is better than one at S4. (Hitting the same, so one S4 hit is .5 wounds on a T4 model, whereas two S3 hits is .66 wounds.)

So you are against giving Shoota boyz 4 shots per model. How about 3 and increase BS to 3

Tacs are good at everything, hence the term jack of all trades. Ork Shoota boyz with twice as many shots would still only be good, not great at shooting and CC. They still die in droves and LD is still a HUGE concern. So what exactly are you against? the idea that a troop choice might be better at something then a SM?

Better than a Space Marine for half the cost. And again-they're still better (offensively) in CC, even with the Shootas.