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So, just a shower thought on the topic, so you know take it as you want.

What if you gave them an armor save of 1+?

That way, they cant get taken out by AP2 weapons, but AP one weapons will still ignore armor, and even with a 1+ they still need a two to save since a roll of 1 is always a fail.

Still at risk to get obliterated by just buckets of bullets, but still give them more suitability from AP2 weapons.

Maybe if you got rid of the invuln.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe if you got rid of the invuln.

I would say keep it, since its still a 5+ and again, the weakness of terminators is not the high AP weapons, its getting buried under buckets of High AP attacks. I mean, if you get blasted at with enough shottas your gonna roll some ones reguardless.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe if you got rid of the invuln.

I would say keep it, since its still a 5+ and again, the weakness of terminators is not the high AP weapons, its getting buried under buckets of High AP attacks. I mean, if you get blasted at with enough shottas your gonna roll some ones reguardless.

I think that if you are gonna make terminators proof vs grav, plasma, and smash, then they shouldn't get a save at all vs AP 1.

Termiantors are weak verse every weapon type in the game currently and ap2 makes them a liability to ever feild. Make their counter melta. I don't know why we are concerned about this...were talking about a game where 2++/ reroll is a thing.

Here's what I'd do:

• 2+ rerollable (and keep the 5++). Makes them much more resilient to massed small arms fire, but if you shoot them with something that'll reliably blow a hole in a tank, it'll still hurt them badly. Which seems to me how it should be. Also has the advantage of making more of a distinction between Term. armour and artificer armour, which means there's a reason to take it on characters who get an invul. save already.

• Make Storm Bolters Assault 4, 18" range. Since the advent of Rapid Fire double shots on the move, there's less distinction between a regular bolter and a storm. Make them kick out a crazy amount of fire at short range; that was their original vibe when they first appeared.

• Let Terminator armour allow you to use a Storm Bolter as an additional CCW. Obviously doesn't affect the powerfist guys, but gives characters and sergeants an extra attack at initiative, making a squad marginally less susceptible to getting walloped before they get to do any fighting.

• Bring back the grenade harnesses they used to get (i.e. give them assault grenades)

• Let them take two heavy weapons in a 5-man squad.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is Assault 4 for Storm Bolters mad? It's basically giving Terminators 2 2/3 hits each per round of shooting, as opposed to 1 1/2. Assault 3 would put them on 2. Hmm. I definitely feel like they need something to make them shootier than a regular bolter; used to be that got twice as many shots. No qualms about them having a slightly reduced max range though – they're supposed to be a close-quarters weapon, right?

My group has tried several different House Rules for Terminators...

-- We started with making them AP1 (rolls of 1 still fail, but AP2 weapons can't ignore their armour), and it was deemed too good because you still get a 2+ save on pretty much everything (even AP2 weapons).

*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-- Then we tried a re-rollable (Invulnerable) save.
Models in Terminator Armor have a re-rollable Invulnerable save; the second roll can only ever be taken on the basic armor (5++) despite any pieces of wargear or powers that may otherwise provide an Invulnerable save.

Better, still rather weak though and it could get confusing sometimes... we were giving the second roll regardless of whether your first roll was armour or invulnerable, which ultimately felt weird, and then with Feel No Pain (Dark Angels) it was also weird. In a game with 3 Terminator squads on one side and 2 on the other, nearly all of which eventually died, it helped just twice per side, but at least it felt like you had a better chance.

*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-- Next we are tying the old (Rogue Trader) Refractor Shield rule/variation. Here is the original rule:
Terminators equipped with Refractor Fields receive a separate saving throw of 5 or 6 which is taken before the normal armour save. Refractor Fields do not suffer any modification on the saving throw due to weapon or other saving throw modifiers.

So this is basically like a "Feel No Pain" roll that happens before the normal save, taken regardless of various weapon types or AP... though clearly D-type weapons/attacks should be an exception. Against AP2 you still have a 5+ chance to negate the shot before making invulnerable saves (but not a 2+!) and against other shooting it reflects just how tough this armour is meant to be. This one still needs playtesting in our group...

Terminators equipped with a Storm bolter may fire the SB twice, that goes for overwatch aswell

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Terminators equipped with a Storm bolter may fire the SB twice, that goes for overwatch aswell

This is probably the best suggestion I've heard. This plus 2 heavies per 5 models.

Make them 35 points, 1 extra Heavy weapon per 5 men (so 2 total). HQ with Terminator Armour unlocks Tactical Terminators as troops. Let them take Power Weapons, not just fists.

Job done. A sturdy line unit right there. Not amazing, not game breaking.

Edit: Also allow combi-weapons for 10 ppm for versatility.

Drop the 5++; instead a rule that all TDA gets to mostly ignore AP(similar to the 1+ save idea), gets to re-roll failed saves vs AP 6 and -(or just AP-), does not ignore AP on Graviton weapons.

This fits the fluff for being nigh-invulnerable, and already being cumbersome(ish) and heavy.

Storm bolters should be assault 3, but that has little to do with termies in general. A Twin-linked bolter is better than a storm bolter at half range and that is just silly. Then you have IG pintle mounts where you would always choose a heavy stubber over the storm bolter(longer range, more shots, same strength, and only drawback is a lower AP which does not matter since anything that the stormbolter would ignore is already going to be hugging better cover, and everything else would still be getting a save). Sacking range for AP would at least make stubber vs storm bolter a choice.

Get rid of the sweeping advance restriction as well. It makes no sense that terminators are the only unit that can't sweep advance when bigger and bulkier units, like Centurions and Riptides, can. Plus it's just more rules bloat that we really don't need in a game that begs simplification.

Centurions can't.

Ah, forgot they were slow and purposeful. I keep thinking they're relentless.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

I would also introduce something similar for the Assault Terminators if anyone can think of an equivalent for them.

Back mounted astardes grenade launchers (str6 ap4 rapid fire, str4 ap small blast rapid fire), utilizing the automated fire special rule. Fires at bs 2 gives the unit assault grenades, and a ranged option that isn't garbage. Let's say 5 points per model. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

I would also introduce something similar for the Assault Terminators if anyone can think of an equivalent for them.

Automated fire Astardes Grenade Launchers, fires at bs 2 (str 6 ap 4 rapid fire, str 4 ap 6 rapid fire small blast) 5 points per model, gives the unit assault grenades. Thoughts?

BloodPigeons89B wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

I would also introduce something similar for the Assault Terminators if anyone can think of an equivalent for them.

Back mounted astardes grenade launchers (str6 ap4 rapid fire, str4 ap small blast rapid fire), utilizing the automated fire special rule. Fires at bs 2 gives the unit assault grenades, and a ranged option that isn't garbage. Let's say 5 points per model. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

I would also introduce something similar for the Assault Terminators if anyone can think of an equivalent for them.

Automated fire Astardes Grenade Launchers, fires at bs 2 (str 6 ap 4 rapid fire, str 4 ap 6 rapid fire small blast) 5 points per model, gives the unit assault grenades. Thoughts?

Double post? Anyways...
I think what Assault Terminators really need is something to set them out from the pack at this point. Time was, being able to pack a ton of S8 AP2 was rare, and being able to pack a bunch of S8 AP2 with good armor saves on top of it was really, really rare. (Even simply getting 4 attacks per model on the charge with power weapons and re-rolls to wound wasn't bad.) Now, though, getting access to S8+ with AP2 is pretty darn easy, and most guys who can get it have more than two attacks per model, or some other way to distinguish themselves. Centurions get S9 and Armorbane, making them especially good against certain targets. Wulfen either get S10 or can hit at initiative if they charge, on top of the fact that they have twice the attacks that Terminators can get. Centurions only have S6, sure, but they too have twice the attacks, and strike at I4 all the time.
A special melee weapon or ranged boost like a grenade launcher could work (I mean, Cataphractii Terminators actually get one,) but it feels like a half measure.

If anything, though, I think that both Assault and Regular Terminators just need something fitting of their 'Veteran' status. Make them not just a tough unit, but a real icon of glory on the field. After all, they're supposed to be wearing plating imbued with actual little bits of the Emperor's own suit of armor. You don't get to be a Terminator without being the best of the best. Power creep has really undercut that specialness, though, since 2+ armor isn't uncommon and isn't hard to get through, getting two Bolter shots before charging isn't hard to get either, and two S8 AP2 attacks isn't bad, but isn't anything to write home about either. I hesitate to say that their stats should just be straight-up better, and giving re-rolls like Preferred Enemy would rather undercut the already middling need for Lightning Claws. Maybe give them all Crusader (For fluff and quicker running more than anything, since they can't sweep) and some kind of rule that lets them tap into their heroic aura and presence? Something like 'Once per game, they may re-roll all failed armor saves and to-hit rolls for a single player turn' or something?

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-2 wounds

I reckon increasing their Toughness Characteristic to 5 and leaving their Wounds Characteristic at 1 is more representative of Terminators since all they are is essentially Tactical Marines in Terminator Armour.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-Shunt teleporter like grey knight interceptors

I'm not familiar with this feature so I have no comment on it (perks of not playing GK's ever).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-Strength 5 Storm Bolters

I've always been a bit iffy about this, but it's the lesser of the evils in terms of "Fixing" Storm Bolters.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

I would also introduce something similar for the Assault Terminators if anyone can think of an equivalent for them.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Adjust cost appropriately.

With the above changes: 40 - 45 Points per Model would be reasonable.

How about back mounted astardes grenade launchers (same as on scout bikes), automated fire at bs 2. For 5 points per model. So long as someone with one an astardes grenade launcher is alive the unit counts as having assault grenades

I'd just use the 30k version of a grenade harness rather than trying to make something new.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
They need

-2 wounds
-Shunt teleporter like grey knight interceptors
-Strength 5 Storm Bolters
-1 in 3 terminators can take a heavy weapon

Adjust cost appropriately.

This is IMHO the simple and best proposal so far. 2W is needed to resist small arms fire. Was needed by Thousand Sons, too, BTW.
At least, 2 wounds and specials 1 in 3. No more than 35 pts. with these two. Even 30, is an elite slot.

Chaos (and wolves too IIRC) would keep their combis. Better not increase the Storm bolter, other lighter weapons, especially xenos', should be toned down.

Also, burn grav in a big fire.

You guys keep adjusting toughness without considering how it affects other units with Terminator Armor.

Do Paladins get 3 wounds at that point?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys keep adjusting toughness without considering how it affects other units with Terminator Armor.

Do Paladins get 3 wounds at that point?

Up toughness is dangerous and redundant, imho.

I can conceive 3 wound paladin but IMHO they should just get better options or be considered redundants.

No, the best solution I've seen on here is letting them fire stormbolters twice. Although its amusing that Wulfen have 2 wounds but terminators have one.

Martel732 wrote:
No, the best solution I've seen on here is letting them fire stormbolters twice. Although its amusing that Wulfen have 2 wounds but terminators have one.

Wulfen look designed by a 8 years old.
"you are dead"
"no I have super-strike-before-death! I WIN!"

because feth units that pay points for Initiative, right?

More seriously, I like the 2W idea because it mitigates the small fire problems.

For the fifth or six time, 2 wounds steps on manz toes way too much.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You guys keep adjusting toughness without considering how it affects other units with Terminator Armor.

Do Paladins get 3 wounds at that point?

Up toughness is dangerous and redundant, imho.

I can conceive 3 wound paladin but IMHO they should just get better options or be considered redundants.

And that's the issue. How much different can you make them compared to the regular Grey Knight Terminator?

Ok - so what do you propose to mitigate small arms fire?

If step into MANZ is bad, well, let's just drop dramatically the cost and increase the weapon options.

Also, let the storm shield give a 3++ only for termies, other units get a 4++.

T5 mitigates small arms fire doesn't it?

pm713 wrote:
T5 mitigates small arms fire doesn't it?

So nurgle termies would be T6?

Also, does it mitigates massed poison, rending orders, similar stuff?

What if they could take Astardes Grenade Launchers? Or alternatively, mounted on the back with the automated fire special rule?

They need more offense. Period. 7th ed is mostly about offense. There is no mathematical niche for more defenses for them. Every suggestion for defenses is fatally flawed b/c of other units like manz.