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 oldzoggy wrote:
Yes there are girls.

Citation needed

 Zewrath wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

No, I don't think your fiancee is being overly dramatic at all for describing the reaction she got that way. Also you should add the second e to fiancee, it's kinda important there.

Ever have a room full of 30-40 men currently engaged in gaming, at the moment you enter the room and are the only woman present, stop everything they are doing and just stare at you, in unison, for a good 5 seconds?

I haven't, but that's probably because I'm a guy so I've been on the other end of that. And I have enough self-awareness to realize how I'm acting probably appears most of the time.

Oh, never realised that there was a difference until I googled it. Sorry, English is not my native language but hey, at least I learned something new!

It's fine.

In most English words, adding an extra vowel doesn't change the meaning like that.

However, in English, accents aren't generally a thing at all. Fiancee has one on the first e. Even in English, fiancee has an accent.

That's the kind of thing you're gonna be in for as you learn English.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IGtR= wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Yes there are girls.

Citation needed

Uhh, well, there's a woman who runs my local GW. I'm pretty sure she's been doing it because she likes wargaming since she's been working for the local GW for quite a long time.

And my mom likes tabletop strategy gaming enough that the strategy gaming club at their college is where my parents first met. She likes WH40k enough that most of my WH40k games ever have been against my mom. And she's good enough at it that she can quite easily table me with 7e Orks being her army with 0 Allies of any sort.

So that's two. Two grown women I have met IRL who are clearly into wargaming. Is that a good enough citation to prove "Yes there are girls" if you take "girls" to be a wide enough term to include women?

Actually it's been a long time since I won a game against my mom. I think the last one I won, the difference between winning and being tabled was that my last model on the board was a Scout who somehow found himself in the perfect spot behind 2+ cover save terrain from the entire Ork army , while also just barely being in range of the objective worth 4 points that gave me a total score at the end of the game 1 higher than my mom got, the bare minimum needed to win the game. Also that Scout weathered an impressive amount of incoming fire from Lootas. That was back in 5th edition, I think. Maybe the start of 6th.

 Zewrath wrote:
Oh, never realised that there was a difference until I googled it. Sorry, English is not my native language but hey, at least I learned something new!

It's because fiancé and fiancée are actually French words following the normal French rules, English burrowed them .

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Oh, never realised that there was a difference until I googled it. Sorry, English is not my native language but hey, at least I learned something new!

It's because fiancé and fiancée are actually French words following the normal French rules, English burrowed them .

Yeah, I know. I did live in Quebec for over 20 years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, uh, to explain why so few women play 40k, let me ask you something.

Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/708821.page#9038618

Yes. Yes that does happen. Here's a guy talking about it happening from the previous page in this thread.

My wife enjoys painting my models, so she's had to go to a local store to pick up paints on occasion. She's had the same experience in almost every store, where she is usually unison stared at by whatever games are ongoing for a few awkward seconds, then awkwardly asked by the manager/clerk if she's lost and/or needs help. Now I've been to most of the same stores on my own separately, and I know the manager/clerk doesn't so much as even nod in your general direction if you're a man, let alone get up, walk over to you, and ask if you need anything.

So she ends up running in, grabbing her paints, and running out as quickly as possible.

All that said, one game store I used to frequent back in school was partially managed by a very pleasant woman who participated in and ran many of the stores' events. That store also seemed to have a higher concentration of female gamers (mostly RPG nights though) and was generally less creepy. It was still a basement store location, which didn't help, but it was clean, open, and well ventilated.

At my local GW, the manager is very friendly, always greets people coming in (either with a "What's up, [name]?" if he knows them or "Good afternoon, how can I help you?" for new people) and most people tend not to look when people walk in. A few do, but never everybody.

And the same happens for women when they walk in too. We're generally pretty good about that.

 JNAProductions wrote:
At my local GW, the manager is very friendly, always greets people coming in (either with a "What's up, [name]?" if he knows them or "Good afternoon, how can I help you?" for new people) and most people tend not to look when people walk in. A few do, but never everybody.

And the same happens for women when they walk in too. We're generally pretty good about that.

I'm betting you have a higher proportion of women in your store's regulars than the places where everyone stops and stares does.

That's the exact point here. When you DON'T act like that, women stay and become part of the group.

What is this "girl" thing you speak of?

 master of ordinance wrote:
What is this "girl" thing you speak of?

I'm gonna guess you're not actually saying you grew up without knowing that humans have two sexes and not one.

At my local GW store we have 15-20 regular gamers and modellers in store weekly, of them 4 are female.a
At my local gaming club it's around 50 people and 10 girls, note that a lot of the girls play skirmish game at this venue.
My wife regularly plays both 40k and Relic knights, she prefers Relic knights because it's faster paced and a quicker game. But plays 40k mostly for the narrative play Andy because space clowns are amazing.
I would say that more women are involved in the industry as a lot of the teen ladies have other prioritys and women tend to come in to the industry later in life than the average man.

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
What is this "girl" thing you speak of?

I'm gonna guess you're not actually saying you grew up without knowing that humans have two sexes and not one.

S-e-x-'s?

We've got one woman who comes in Saturdays, always. Outside that, not really.

 balazra wrote:
I would say that more women are involved in the industry as a lot of the teen ladies have other prioritys and women tend to come in to the industry later in life than the average man.

Um, yeah, a better guess would be that teenage girls don't want to deal with the stereotypical teenage boys common to the stores; or because since many of the teenage girls are percieved as single, the creepiness escalates. How wierd and creepy games stores can be towards women is also played upon often in modern culture, and why would anyone even want to go if that weirdness is always going to be there? It's threatening, and with how women are taught that they are ultimately responsible for what happens to them, why go to a place you know is going to be full of only guys (potentially ill-adjusted too)?

And the "older" ladies are more common often because they usually have someone (e.g. a husband or boyfriend) to go with them, which causes *most* of the creepiness to go away and/or offers some semblance of protection.

Seriously, not all teenage girls are only concerned with make-up and boys.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
What is this "girl" thing you speak of?

I'm gonna guess you're not actually saying you grew up without knowing that humans have two sexes and not one.

S-e-x-'s?

You, um, might want to look into what contractions are for in the English language.

 Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/708821.page#9038618

Yes. Yes that does happen. Here's a guy talking about it happening from the previous page in this thread.

There's still perception vs reality.

As I said...

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

I'm sure it might happen somewhere from time to time, but I question how frequent actual "staring" occurs. If anything I'd say it's a rarity when you can walk in to a room without most of the people in that room looking over at you, which I understand can be unpleasant if you're an outsider (and that post you linked even specifically stated she tends to be overly dramatic when describing something unpleasant ).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's still perception vs reality.

As I said...

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

I'm sure it might happen somewhere from time to time, but I question how frequent actual "staring" occurs. If anything I'd say it's a rarity when you can walk in to a room without most of the people in that room looking over at you, which I understand can be unpleasant if you're an outsider (and that post you linked even specifically stated she tends to be overly dramatic when describing something unpleasant ).

Why do you think perception doesn't matter when it comes to what people decide to do?

Also, no. Guys do NOT get reactions like that. We DON'T.

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
What is this "girl" thing you speak of?

I'm gonna guess you're not actually saying you grew up without knowing that humans have two sexes and not one.

S-e-x-'s?

You, um, might want to look into what contractions are for in the English language.

Ohh, so a sex is a contradiction!

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ohh, so a sex is a contradiction!

I have a ball. Maybe you'd like to bounce it.

:: hands him a tennis ball ::

:: pat pat on the head ::

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

Yes, it does. "Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

And it happens to women regardless of the clothes we wear.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ohh, so a sex is a contradiction!

I have a ball. Maybe you'd like to bounce it.

:: hands him a tennis ball ::

:: pat pat on the head ::

WOOF!

 amazingturtles wrote:
Yes, it does. "Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

And it happens to women regardless of the clothes we wear.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

You, uh, probably should explain objectification 101. They appear to need the explanation since they don't see the problem.

I game at 4 different stores. Women game at all of them. Men game at them too.

Yes I know this IS an issue (stop drooling at the back) but it really shouldn't be.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/708821.page#9038618

Yes. Yes that does happen. Here's a guy talking about it happening from the previous page in this thread.

There's still perception vs reality.

As I said...

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

I'm sure it might happen somewhere from time to time, but I question how frequent actual "staring" occurs. If anything I'd say it's a rarity when you can walk in to a room without most of the people in that room looking over at you, which I understand can be unpleasant if you're an outsider (and that post you linked even specifically stated she tends to be overly dramatic when describing something unpleasant ).

It happens frequently enough to be an actual meme within gaming communities, whether that's 40k, D&D, or MtG. It's one of those things that so many gamers, regardless of gender, have witnessed that the event can be referenced in a short-hand version and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about. Does it happen in every store and every gaming community? No, of course not... but it happens in enough of them to be considered the "norm".

My last FLGS was a 100% dude-fest.
Not sure why that is relevant though?

I'm not sure it can be blamed squarely on the stares and silence. My FLGS has a fair number of the female kind but only two play 40k and they're both WAGs funded by the significant other. Mostly the ladies in the shop play RPGs and card games like MtG.
I think the expensive plastic 'toys' are the big turn off.

Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's still perception vs reality.

As I said...

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

I'm sure it might happen somewhere from time to time, but I question how frequent actual "staring" occurs. If anything I'd say it's a rarity when you can walk in to a room without most of the people in that room looking over at you, which I understand can be unpleasant if you're an outsider (and that post you linked even specifically stated she tends to be overly dramatic when describing something unpleasant ).

Why do you think perception doesn't matter when it comes to what people decide to do?

Also, no. Guys do NOT get reactions like that. We DON'T.

I never said perception doesn't matter. But I don't think you can lay blame at people for looking at over at who walked in the room and that person then feeling uncomfortable.

amazingturtles wrote:Yes, it does.

So have you timed how long wargamers from a variety of groups look at people as they walk in and categorised it by gender?

I never said it never happens, I questioned how frequently it happens. I questioned how frequently it happens because it's not something I've observed since I was a kid and the local GW was frequented by a bunch of pubescent boys.

These days the local GW is mostly filled with adults who I don't think care remotely whether you're male, female or wearing a cape with your underwear on the outside.

"Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

I know the difference between staring and looking but thanks for pointing it out.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

I know what objectification is, someone looking at you is not automatically objectification.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's still perception vs reality.

As I said...

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

I'm sure it might happen somewhere from time to time, but I question how frequent actual "staring" occurs. If anything I'd say it's a rarity when you can walk in to a room without most of the people in that room looking over at you, which I understand can be unpleasant if you're an outsider (and that post you linked even specifically stated she tends to be overly dramatic when describing something unpleasant ).

Why do you think perception doesn't matter when it comes to what people decide to do?

Also, no. Guys do NOT get reactions like that. We DON'T.

I never said perception doesn't matter. But I don't think you can lay blame at people for looking at over at who walked in the room and that person then feeling uncomfortable.

amazingturtles wrote:Yes, it does.

So have you timed how long wargamers from a variety of groups look at people as they walk in and categorised it by gender?

I never said it never happens, I questioned how frequently it happens. I questioned how frequently it happens because it's not something I've observed since I was a kid and the local GW was frequented by a bunch of pubescent boys.

These days the local GW is mostly filled with adults who I don't think care remotely whether you're male, female or wearing a cape with your underwear on the outside.

"Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

I know the difference between staring and looking but thanks for pointing it out.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

I know what objectification is, someone looking at you is not automatically objectification.

To be clear, the problem is not that people glance up when someone walks into the room and then go back to what they're doing.

It's that the entire room stops everything. And stares.

 Psienesis wrote:
It happens frequently enough to be an actual meme within gaming communities, whether that's 40k, D&D, or MtG. It's one of those things that so many gamers, regardless of gender, have witnessed that the event can be referenced in a short-hand version and everyone knows exactly what you're talking about. Does it happen in every store and every gaming community? No, of course not... but it happens in enough of them to be considered the "norm".

I think the stereotype mainly is harking back to a time when such groups were filled with socially awkward pubescent boys.

My observation these days is gaming groups tend to be mid 20's to mid 30's folks who don't actually give a damn either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
It's that the entire room stops everything. And stares.

And again, I simply question how often that *actually* happens vs how much people joke about it happening or how much people perceive it happening when it's really not.