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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Via CNN

Pope Francis to grant Catholic priests right to forgive abortion


(CNN) — Pope Francis will allow Catholic priests the power to forgive abortion, he announced in a letter released Monday.

The letter states: "I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life. In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God's mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father."

"May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation," the letter continues. "I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion."

Developing story - more to come


Interesting development from the Vatican there...
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Not that interesting really. Priests have always had the power to forgive sins, and this probably comes as clarification from the Vatican about how to handle this issue when it comes up in confession.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

I think it was reserved to Bishops, if I'm not mistaken?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit:

Looks like it is a power that is reserved to Bishops (because procuring an abortion results in automatic excommunication, which prevents that person from attending confession, and the bishop is the one to remit the excommunication), but it looks like most American bishops have delegated the ability to remit the automatic excommunication in confession.

So this seems to take a practice that was prevalent in North America, and makes it a worldwide practice within the Church.

Looks like Abortion was a big theme during the Year of Mercy, which ended yesterday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
Not that interesting really. Priests have always had the power to forgive sins, and this probably comes as clarification from the Vatican about how to handle this issue when it comes up in confession.


I guess just to respond to this, and to see if I understand it correctly. I'm sure our resident Catholic authority will clarify if I'm wrong.

My understanding is that, North American practice aside, the Priest couldn't forgive abortion in confession because the procurement of the abortion made the person ineligible to participate in confession.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/21 12:29:09


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 LordofHats wrote:
Not that interesting really. Priests have always had the power to forgive sins, and this probably comes as clarification from the Vatican about how to handle this issue when it comes up in confession.


Yea I thought thats what confession was for. We Anglicans do it better though. We just have a collective-"oops, sorry" and pass around the holy whiskey. Then we crank up the karaoke machine and break out the chips and salsa.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Frazzled wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Not that interesting really. Priests have always had the power to forgive sins, and this probably comes as clarification from the Vatican about how to handle this issue when it comes up in confession.


Yea I thought thats what confession was for. We Anglicans do it better though. We just have a collective-"oops, sorry" and pass around the holy whiskey. Then we crank up the karaoke machine and break out the chips and salsa.


Hah, our brand of Lutheran doesn't even have to check the "oops, sorry" part. It's just assumed we're forgiven if we work hard and hopefully die at our post behind the work bench. We also have atrocious karaoke every weekend since no Finn woulld sing sober unless he's on a record label.

Though that does leave us without chips and salsa...
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Spetulhu wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Not that interesting really. Priests have always had the power to forgive sins, and this probably comes as clarification from the Vatican about how to handle this issue when it comes up in confession.


Yea I thought thats what confession was for. We Anglicans do it better though. We just have a collective-"oops, sorry" and pass around the holy whiskey. Then we crank up the karaoke machine and break out the chips and salsa.


Hah, our brand of Lutheran doesn't even have to check the "oops, sorry" part. It's just assumed we're forgiven if we work hard and hopefully die at our post behind the work bench. We also have atrocious karaoke every weekend since no Finn woulld sing sober unless he's on a record label.

Though that does leave us without chips and salsa...


See you're civilized. We can send a few airloads of chips and salsa if needed. We'll need a landing strip though. Air dropping salsa is considered either 1) a war crime; 2) proof of the existence of Dog.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Frazzled wrote:
We can send a few airloads of chips and salsa if needed. We'll need a landing strip though. Air dropping salsa is considered either 1) a war crime; 2) proof of the existence of Dog.


We actually have one of the busiest airports in Europe when it comes to getting somewhere far away from here. ;-)

But in order to stay on topic I express my approval of the Pope's stance on forgiveness. Allowing regular priests instead of bishops and above to handle this many more people will have a chance to get forgiveness, many more people will feel better and the world will simply be a better place. As much as I personally disapprove of organized religion I think Pope Francis is a good example of all those Christian values people like to forget if the needy has the wrong color, nationality or sexual orientation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/21 15:23:57


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Procedurally, are there other sins that can't be absolved via confession?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

 Frazzled wrote:
Procedurally, are there other sins that can't be absolved via confession?

Killing the priest?

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
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Leerstetten, Germany

 Frazzled wrote:
Procedurally, are there other sins that can't be absolved via confession?


My limited understanding is that it would be any sin that automatically gets you excommunicated, since excommunication keeps you from being able to participate in confession.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Thats understandable. Why abortion? Is murder the same?

not being critical, this is just interesting.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats understandable. Why abortion? Is murder the same?

not being critical, this is just interesting.

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/apart-from-abortion-are-there-other-sins-that-incur-automatic-excommunication
Full Question

Having an abortion means automatic excommunication from the Church. Are there other sins that carry this penalty?
Answer

Yes. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

Violation of the sacred species is the throwing away the consecrated species of Christ's body or blood or the taking or retaining of them for a sacrilegious purpose (CIC 1367).

Physically attacking the pope is self-explanatory, as are absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin and consecrating a bishop without authorization from the Vatican.

A direct violation of the seal of confession is one in which both the penitent and the penitent's sin can easily be determined by the confessor's words or behavior. Again, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply if no one perceives the disclosure (CIC 1330).

Automatic excommunication for abortion (CIC 1398) applies not only to the woman who has the abortion, but to "all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and [this] includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).

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Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

Why is abortion but not murder? Isn't that the same? Frazzled confused. Frazzled need Chik Fil A to overcome confusion.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Colne, England

I suppose that would require the state to acknowledge the fetus as a person rather than you know, a fetus. Of course if you lived in a non secular country, that definition may change.


Brb learning to play.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
I suppose that would require the state to acknowledge the fetus as a person rather than you know, a fetus. Of course if you lived in a non secular country, that definition may change.



Has nothing to do with the state. Generally abortion is opposed as its murder of an infant. My query is, does murder also equate as a nonconfessionable sin? If not, what is the theological underpinning for the difference?

gain not criticizing, this is a query for information.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Yeah, that's pretty amusing. Have an abortion and "murder the baby" before it's born? Excommunication. Wait until the child is born and then murder it? Just go to your normal confession, god will forgive.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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The Great State of Texas

As I said I think there's a structural argument we are not aware of going on. Where's Manchu when I need him?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Just a guess here (take with a grain of salt, it's been a decade since I got a religious studies degree and I don't use it that often), but I would imagine this is a distinction due to the fact that from the Catholic perspective (fetus is alive and has not been born, thus is innocent and free from sin) there is no justification for that killing whereas sometimes killing a person who has been born can be justified (Augustine and Aquinas wrote plenty on just war theory, for starters). You can still be excommunicated for killing someone that's been born, it's just not automatic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/21 20:48:20


 
   
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Building a blood in water scent

website Whembly cited wrote:was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).


Here's your out. Children are seriously inconweenient. Can't imagine an abortion that isn't excused on these grounds.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

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IMO, on a long enough timeline, the Catholic Church's opposition to birth-control and abortion will be seen as just as embarrassing as its selling of indulgences. The sooner they move past this, the better. This recent news is a small step in the right direction.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
Where's Manchu when I need him?
Been sick of late.

The first thing to understand about excommunication is, we are talking about a legal status. Excommunicated Catholics remain Catholic and remain subject to the requirements of the church's law (e.g., must attend Sunday mass) - but lose the right to participate in the sacraments (e.g., may not recieve communion). The second thing to understand is, the primary aim of excommunication is rehabilitation rather than punishment. Throughout the history of Christianity, excommunication has primarily been used to reconcile people with erroneous beliefs back to orthodox Christianity. Excommunication has therefore historically been applied in the context of ideas rather than acts.

Procurement of completed abortion results in ipso facto excommunication not because it amounts to murder, which is obviously a grave sin, but rather because the presumption is that those who procure completed abortions do so under the insistence that it is not murder at all (the Church seems to give people the benefit of the doubt here; it does not consider them murderers - i.e., having acted in malice, but having instead acted under intellectual and moral error/delusion). So you end up with a two-step process: you have to understand what you have actually done before you can be absolved of having done it. Once the excommunication has been absolved, then the person can go to confession for the absolution of the underlying act (the abortion itself).

Committing murder otherwise does not result in ipso facto excommunication because this sinful act, grave though it clearly is, is usually not bound up with delusions about the nature and motivation of the act. The person already has the correct intellectual and moral framework to understnad the sinfulness of the act and therefore does not require "reintegration" into orthodoxy before confession. Abortion is the only kind of murder that people regularly deny is murder (generally because they deny the personhood of the victim); and of course, the motivation is virtually never malicious.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 09:24:09


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Procurement of completed abortion results in ipso facto excommunication not because it amounts to murder, which is obviously a grave sin, but rather because the presumption is that those who procure completed abortions do so under the insistence that it is not murder at all (the Church seems to give people the benefit of the doubt here; it does not consider them murderers - i.e., having acted in malice, but having instead acted under intellectual and moral error/delusion). So you end up with a two-step process: you have to understand what you have actually done before you can be absolved of having done it. Once the excommunication has been absolved, then the person can go to confession for the absolution of the underlying act (the abortion itself).


Interesting!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

 LoneLictor wrote:
IMO, on a long enough timeline, the Catholic Church's opposition to birth-control and abortion will be seen as just as embarrassing as its selling of indulgences. The sooner they move past this, the better. This recent news is a small step in the right direction.


Still a lot of work to be done in the eyes of many, to be sure, but this Pope has been doing a lot of small steps in the right direction, i.e. In February, Francis okayed the use of contraceptives for women in South and Central America to curb the spread of the Zika virus. In July 2013, just four months after he was installed the 266th pope of the Roman Catholic Church, he openly acknowledged the rights and privileges of LGBTQ groups and individuals in Brazil. Months later, in December 2013, the Pope called for an evaluation and reformation of the values and customs within the Church. As a Catholic, I love me some Pope Francis!
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

His reign is very much a matter of continuity with that of Benedict XVI. The major difference is media savvy. The Pope Emeritus naively thought the substance of his message mattered more than its style. Francis understands how superficial the global - and especially Western - audience really is. For example, a co-worker of mine, who has strongly anti-Catholic views - insisted with a straight face that he had sanctioned gay marriage ...

   
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 Frazzled wrote:
Procedurally, are there other sins that can't be absolved via confession?



I would assume suicide would be one
   
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The Great State of Texas

Well per Manchu above it sounds like the issue is recognizing its a sin-hence murder being different. Suicide would fall under that too.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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MN (Currently in WY)

 Frazzled wrote:
Well per Manchu above it sounds like the issue is recognizing its a sin-hence murder being different. Suicide would fall under that too.


I think you are overthinking this one Frazz.

Whether you know that suicide is a sin or not, you are not going to be coming back for confession to have it absolved no matter what.

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Solahma






RVA

Assuming I understand him correctly, Frazzled isn't too far off when it comes to suicide. The same argument applies - from the perspective of Catholic teaching, it's irrational or even anti-rational just like willfully killing an unborn child without direct malice. The act speaks for itself, in terms of the actor laboring under an erroneous mindset. Now obviously suicides are not excommunicated (remember the point of excommunication is bringing someone back into communion) and just as obviously no suicide is going to the confessional - but here's what the Church teaches about suicides: we do not cease to pray for anyone, which is to say nothing is beyond God's mercy. And that is what the Pope is concerned to show by extending the capacity to lift the ban of excommunication and absolve the sin of procuring an abortion to every priest rather than reserving it to the bishops and specially delegated priests. With a suicide, one would have to say well it is in God's hands but we still pray for that person, we still believe that they could be with God despite the tragedy of their death.

It's interesting to note that attempting suicide does not result in ipso facto excommunication. I think this is probably because (at least in Western society) suicide is by and large still looked upon as a tragedy, the result of despair. But there is of course a movement to portray suicide as a rational and moral choice. If that movement gains significant ground in the wider culture then I would expect the Church to add attempted suicide to the short list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/23 22:00:36


   
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Earth

so.... what gives him the right to give permission to forgive ... well anything really?
   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I assume you mean "the pope" (although it is more accurate to say "the bishops") by "him" - Catholics believe that Jesus established sacraments, which are directly examples of divine grace - and that one of them was the absolution of sins, which is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Certain sacraments can only be "celebrated" (performed, in the sense of a ritual) by the bishops who are direct successors to Jesus's own apostles or by those delegated by the bishops. Reconciliation is one of those.

Reconcilaition isn't just the same as forgiveness. Obviously it is within the power of every one of us to forgive each other sins. The difference is, Reconciliation is about the wider community of the Catholic Church and not just between individuals. That is what Catholics mean by communion. Any Catholic in a state of grave sin is out of communion and needs to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation to "rejoin." The person needs to be reconciled to the entire Church, hence the name. Being excommunicated is something different, and has to do with the laws of the Church (as opposed to theology strictly).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/23 22:22:53


   
 
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