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I know Humans and Eldar have Warp Presence

Orks don't know what they have

Tau and Necrons lack Psyker ability

so what about Nids, what is their relation to Chaos

I'd always believed that the Shadow in the Warp was created by the constant psychic chattering of billions upon billions of Tyranid minds, basically blotting out the warp with static.

First of all Tau don't lack psychic influence in the way necrons do, they're just badely attuned with the warp.

The Tyranids have zoaphrones. They use psychic powers.

Tyranids are drawn to Terra because of the Astronomican so clearly they can sence warp things on a galaxy wide scale. They don't travel through the warp.

Best theory I've seen is that the Tyranids use the warp as we do radiation. Internet signals travel through solar radiation to their server destination and then back. Apply the same logic to tyranid thoughts in the warp. Overwhelming any and all other recievers is what causes the shadow in the warp.

Yeah that works as an explanation

And the terminology for Tau is that they're psychically 'Blunt'. Minimal warp presence.

so your saying the Tau do have some warp connection but very small?

LightKing wrote:
so your saying the Tau do have some warp connection but very small?

Yep

I think the Dawn of War games describe it quite well.

During the campaign, the Chaos Lord (I forget his name) psychically projects a speech/threat to your army as it attacks.

If you play as Tau, your commander doesn't receive this vision, but does report some odd static he's experiencing.

OT:

I've always loved the idea of a chaos possessed tyranid army.

Somehow Nurgle or Slannesh got in there and either made them into disease ridden space bugs or wendigo/slannesh themed tyranids.

They are competing predators for the same prey.

LightKing wrote:
I know Humans and Eldar have Warp Presence

Orks don't know what they have

Tau and Necrons lack Psyker ability

so what about Nids, what is their relation to Chaos

Relationship between the two? Not a good one. The Ruinous Powers and the Hive Mind have had very nasty clashes on occasion.

From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

Chaos doesn't have any interest in the Tyranids. Chaos is founded on the emotions and beliefs of sentient beings, Tyranids are single minded and emotionless. They don't even use the warp, ever. All they're gonna do is eat up all life and the Chaos gods don't want that.....at all. So I would imagine Chaos wants the nids dead just as bad as everyone else....well, except those dumb orks.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

Source for that?

Their relationship is pretty bad, they're going through lots of councelling.

 Formosa wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

You're referring to the Tarsis Ultra incident. The war was lost in space and lost on the ground; the only way the Ultramarines pulled a win was by having an Inquisitor concost a one-shot bioweapon and delivering said weapon into the Norn Queen at the heart of the last Hive Ship in the system.

As for "the largest tendril", hardly. The tendril that attacked the Cryptus system was millions of Hive Ships strong. The combined forces of Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Cadians, Sisters and Necrons couldn't pull a win without blowing up the local gas giant to deny the Tyranids their feast and try to cripple the fleet in space. Even then, plenty of Tyranids survived (in space and on the ground) and within a couple of weeks it was ready to move on to the Baal system.

You're really under-selling the strength of Hive Fleet Leviathan (cannot really blame people for that; the commonly accessible lore is all about Behemoth and Kraken, with focus on their major defeats - all the stuff about Leviathan's rampage is hidden in more recent campaign books and not very well known).

 Formosa wrote:

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

Largest so far.

There's no telling how many they number. The 'nids have only just arrived.

Chaos can't get pass Cadia, they can't do nothing to the Nids until they deal with the IoM first.

krakentendrilswarm wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

You're referring to the Tarsis Ultra incident. The war was lost in space and lost on the ground; the only way the Ultramarines pulled a win was by having an Inquisitor concost a one-shot bioweapon and delivering said weapon into the Norn Queen at the heart of the last Hive Ship in the system.

As for "the largest tendril", hardly. The tendril that attacked the Cryptus system was millions of Hive Ships strong. The combined forces of Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Cadians, Sisters and Necrons couldn't pull a win without blowing up the local gas giant to deny the Tyranids their feast and try to cripple the fleet in space. Even then, plenty of Tyranids survived (in space and on the ground) and within a couple of weeks it was ready to move on to the Baal system.

You're really under-selling the strength of Hive Fleet Leviathan (cannot really blame people for that; the commonly accessible lore is all about Behemoth and Kraken, with focus on their major defeats - all the stuff about Leviathan's rampage is hidden in more recent campaign books and not very well known).

I actually pride myself on knowing all the lore, but that slipped past me, thanks for correcting me (not sarcasm), I wasn't aware of the cyptus tendril, just the well known right and left tendrils of leviathan, one of which was stopped at tarsis ultra and the other sent into the orks.

As to why I think if chaos decided to kill the nids they would lose, its simple really, the gods have shown the ability to rupture real space if they want to, so again if they wanted to attack em mass, they would rip open real space near the nids (I very much doubt the shadow would even bother the gods themselves) and attack them, and while the nids are near limitless, Deamons are limitless in number, But! I hear you say, the nids can close warp portals and have done so before, and yes that true, they stopped a warp incursion, but that was very minor, how would nids deal with a Full deamon world, where the very land itself is attacking them, Hordes of mutants, traitor guard etc. are swarming them, and before you even factor in the legions and renegades.

It all comes down to the God Factor, Nids have no answer to the chaos gods, who have destroyed worlds in the fluff on a whim (most notably Caliban)

And yet the gods have not destroyed Terra, as far as the setting is concerned, the gods are to occupied bickering with each other to do anything.

And the mortal followers of Chaos can't do gak, as the Legions are broken at best, and most of them are trapped in the Eye of Terror.

Chaos is such a broad term, It includes the mortals who follow it as well as the many powers that exists within the warp. For instance Gork and Mork are chaos deities and they think the tyranids are fantastic, because they love fighting almost as much as the orks do. Khorne cares not, and Slaanesh is even less interested than Khorne. Tzeentch is probably curious, and has plans to deal with them, but a race with a frozen hierarchy and devoid of learning or secrets would not hold his interest for long. Nurgle is probably the most interested, he could have lots of fun twisting their flesh, sending them plagues, but they seem resistant to his talents, which probably makes him all the more interested in them.

As for the human/mortal chaos forces like marines, heretics, dark mechanicum, etc. they view the Tyranids as another force to weaken the IoM, and as something to be dealt with once the false emperor and his lackeys are put to the sword. At least those that can still plan, and are aware of the tyranids, the rest of those looney bastards are too busy doing things that matter for their respective deities to worry about cockroaches from another galaxy.

The tyranids aren't exactly talking, the norn queens are capable but would you have a conversation with a chicken nugget, because that's how they feel about non tyranid life forms.They probably don't care at all about the chaos powers, once they strip this galaxy of biomass the chaos powers will fade from existence, in the meantime the shadow in the warp keeps them at bay (mostly).

I would say their relationship is one of mutual empathy borne of a sympathetic case of crippled codex syndrome.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Chaos doesn't have any interest in the Tyranids. Chaos is founded on the emotions and beliefs of sentient beings, Tyranids are single minded and emotionless. They don't even use the warp, ever. All they're gonna do is eat up all life and the Chaos gods don't want that.....at all. So I would imagine Chaos wants the nids dead just as bad as everyone else....well, except those dumb orks.

There was a story in the nid codex that had four Greater Daemons finding themselves upon a Tyranid Invasion rather than the humans they were expecting after the artifact that the GK were defending was destroyed in the conflict that opened up a massive warp storm.

The Bloodthirster was displeased because the Nids blood isn't so much blood as some sort of nasty ichor, they do not care for battle or the fight they just consume and consume.

The Keeper of Secrets was pissed because they were mindless, they could not be seduced, they were not to excess, they were boring and not fun to play with.

The Lord of Change saw potential, but overall was mostly annoyed at how mindless they were, they do not plot they do not plan and their presence disrupted the powers of the warp.

The Great unclean one thought them vile because they did not appreciate his plagues, they did not feel despair, they tried to evolve past the plagues and made themselves resistant.

Needless to say, they all wanted them destroyed.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Chaos doesn't have any interest in the Tyranids. Chaos is founded on the emotions and beliefs of sentient beings, Tyranids are single minded and emotionless. They don't even use the warp, ever. All they're gonna do is eat up all life and the Chaos gods don't want that.....at all. So I would imagine Chaos wants the nids dead just as bad as everyone else....well, except those dumb orks.

There was a story in the nid codex that had four Greater Daemons finding themselves upon a Tyranid Invasion rather than the humans they were expecting after the artifact that the GK were defending was destroyed in the conflict that opened up a massive warp storm.

The Bloodthirster was displeased because the Nids blood isn't so much blood as some sort of nasty ichor, they do not care for battle or the fight they just consume and consume.

The Keeper of Secrets was pissed because they were mindless, they could not be seduced, they were not to excess, they were boring and not fun to play with.

The Lord of Change saw potential, but overall was mostly annoyed at how mindless they were, they do not plot they do not plan and their presence disrupted the powers of the warp.

The Great unclean one thought them vile because they did not appreciate his plagues, they did not feel despair, they tried to evolve past the plagues and made themselves resistant.

Needless to say, they all wanted them destroyed.

Direct quote for the Codex on the Fall of Shadowbrink

With one of their number fallen, the remaining lords of the Abominatum realised the
nature of the battle had changed. The Hive Mind was leeching their energies, severing the
Daemons from the sustaining powers of the Empyrean. No real blood flowed for Khorne,
just worthless alien ichor. As each rancid disease was unleashed by the children of
Nurgle, so the next brood of Tyranids had grown resistant to it. Without the fear or
devotion of true mortals to sustain them, the Daemons were foundering fast

Yep that's the one, possibly my favorite short battle story from a codex because of how it fleshes out the sides against each other.

Tyran wrote:
And yet the gods have not destroyed Terra, as far as the setting is concerned, the gods are to occupied bickering with each other to do anything.

And the mortal followers of Chaos can't do gak, as the Legions are broken at best, and most of them are trapped in the Eye of Terror.

Why would the chaos gods want there favourite food source destroyed, the chaos gods don't want to win, or care for that matter, its the mortal followers that want the imperium to fall, and even then they want to rule it, not destroy humanity.

Relationship between Tyranids and Chaos?

Irritants.

Tyranids like to eat, warp material gives them gas.
Chaos wants to be worshipped, not being tasty barely gets them noticed.

They really have no use for each other.

Nurgle feeding one of his minions to them is just an act of trolling.
There is no glory, pleasure, suffering or unbridled change in dealing with Tyranids.

They are the worst opponents they can ever be, almost as much as Tyranids and Orks are the PERFECT opponents.

According to the story involving Nids, Daemons and GKs earlier in this thread, the Nids we largely ignoring the Daemons during the first bit of the battle. As Daemons are not made of matter (or at least not matter from this universe) the Nids did not recognize them as food.
But once the Hive mind recognized them as a "rival predator" their tactics changed and they began to overwhelm the Daemons.

And unless this has been ret-conned, Nids do not tap into the Warp energies, but rather the collective minds of all Nids creates it's own Warp-like energy. That is why is "shadows" the Warp as it is like it's on the same frequency as the Warp, but a completely different radio station.

-

 Formosa wrote:

krakentendrilswarm wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From what we have seen so far, nids see chaos as a rival predator and chaos doesn't seem to see nids as a threat at all, which strikes me as odd. If the chaos God's decided to declare total war on the nids.... they would be extinct.

Would they? If the Chaos Gods' only way of influencing the materium is through sentient beings (which aside from warp rifts is the case), it strikes me that they're in a uniquely vulnerable position when it comes to the 'nids.

It's only really the Necrons and the 'nids that stand a chance of destroying the chaos gods, given that victory for either of them results in the destruction of everything that gives them power...

If chaos goes to town on the nids, then the nids really don't stand a chance, they would send all of there mortal followers, legions, renegade chapters, unlimited deamons, and so on, the largest tendril of the nids was beaten by a single company of ultra marines with some guard support, I doubt they could stand up to a full black crusade or even a single united legion.

You're referring to the Tarsis Ultra incident. The war was lost in space and lost on the ground; the only way the Ultramarines pulled a win was by having an Inquisitor concost a one-shot bioweapon and delivering said weapon into the Norn Queen at the heart of the last Hive Ship in the system.

As for "the largest tendril", hardly. The tendril that attacked the Cryptus system was millions of Hive Ships strong. The combined forces of Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, Cadians, Sisters and Necrons couldn't pull a win without blowing up the local gas giant to deny the Tyranids their feast and try to cripple the fleet in space. Even then, plenty of Tyranids survived (in space and on the ground) and within a couple of weeks it was ready to move on to the Baal system.

You're really under-selling the strength of Hive Fleet Leviathan (cannot really blame people for that; the commonly accessible lore is all about Behemoth and Kraken, with focus on their major defeats - all the stuff about Leviathan's rampage is hidden in more recent campaign books and not very well known).

I actually pride myself on knowing all the lore, but that slipped past me, thanks for correcting me (not sarcasm), I wasn't aware of the cyptus tendril, just the well known right and left tendrils of leviathan, one of which was stopped at tarsis ultra and the other sent into the orks.

As to why I think if chaos decided to kill the nids they would lose, its simple really, the gods have shown the ability to rupture real space if they want to, so again if they wanted to attack em mass, they would rip open real space near the nids (I very much doubt the shadow would even bother the gods themselves) and attack them, and while the nids are near limitless, Deamons are limitless in number, But! I hear you say, the nids can close warp portals and have done so before, and yes that true, they stopped a warp incursion, but that was very minor, how would nids deal with a Full deamon world, where the very land itself is attacking them, Hordes of mutants, traitor guard etc. are swarming them, and before you even factor in the legions and renegades.

It all comes down to the God Factor, Nids have no answer to the chaos gods, who have destroyed worlds in the fluff on a whim (most notably Caliban)

I'm not convinced on the Chaos Gods' omnipotence. There's a big difference between being able to open a Warp rift inside a planet under certain circumstances and being able to do it 'at will'.

Just opening a massive Warp rift on a Hive Fleet isn't always a 100% kill. The whole plot of the Valdedor story is that the Iyanden Farseers sucked a chunk of Hive Fleet Kraken into the Warp in revenge for the decimation of their home-ship. They guessed there could be no worse fate than being sent to 40k hell to be torn apart by Daemons. A few years later, that same chunk of Kraken emerges from the Warp completely untouched. The Hive Fleet just took a nap as it passed through the Warp and was apparently totally unmolested by the locals.

Which makes you wonder about Hive Fleet Behemoth, which was defeated by sucking it into the Warp... perhaps it will be back one day?

Lastly, as for Tyranids vs an entire Daemon World, there's not a whole lot on this but there is one snippet in one of the older books in which a Daemon Prince converts the planet Sondheim into a Daemon World, which is promptly invaded by Hive Fleet Leviathan. Grey Knights show up to take on the Daemons, see the all out war going on below (with no clear victor in sight) and decide the only smart move is to blow up the planet instead. Good times!