Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Everyone,

A friend and I are starting up 40k for the first time. Neither of us have any units, paints, or any hobby tools. We ain't got nothin'.

He's going to play Chaos Space Marines, and I'm going to play Space Marines.

Trying to decide what the better value is:

1. We both buy a "Start collecting!" box.
here's a list of CSM: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/start-collecting-chaos-space-marines
here's a list of SM: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Start-Collecting-Space-Marines

2. We buy and split "Dark Vengeance" box:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Vengeance-EN?_requestid=10020622

So the dark vengeance box is considerably cheaper. Honestly the cost delta isn't an issue to me. I'd rather get a better overall starting force, even if it costs a little more.

If we end up going the route of "Start Collecting!" i'll probably buy space wolves instead though, as wolves in space is both incredibly legit and seems to refuse to quit. And I might buy a dreadnought, because, "I have come to destroy you."

Thanks!

M

Start Collecting boxes are a great start. They're pretty evenly matched.

DV is also a great set, but a bit wonkier, as the points aren't exactly even (SM gets a bit better value than CSM)

 jreilly89 wrote:
Start Collecting boxes are a great start. They're pretty evenly matched.

DV is also a great set, but a bit wonkier, as the points aren't exactly even (SM gets a bit better value than CSM)

Do the start collecting boxes have enough in terms of rulesets to get going? I actually lied i do have a ton of dice from my D&D/ White Wolf days. So i don't need dice.

I'm thinking of doing both. Start collecting! + DV. that way we have options, and just set the point total at like 500 or something.

The Dark Vengeance space marines have a lot of Dark Angels symbols on them. These are difficult to take off. You can run them as Dark Angels, or a successor chapter or whatever you want, but just know they'll have legion/chapter specific icons everywhere.

However, you get bikes, terminators, and tactical squads, which gives you a variety of toys. I REALLY like the details on the Chaos Chosen, just not the weapons they have. I use them as Champions in other Chaos squads.


On the plus side, the Dark Vengeance set comes with a mini rule book. With 8th edition due out next summer (according to rumors), that will save you some money on buying a full rule book that will be obsolete in 6 months.

 kronk wrote:
The Dark Vengeance space marines have a lot of Dark Angels symbols on them. These are difficult to take off. You can run them as Dark Angels, or a successor chapter or whatever you want, but just know they'll have legion/chapter specific icons everywhere.

However, you get bikes, terminators, and tactical squads, which gives you a variety of toys. I REALLY like the details on the Chaos Chosen, just not the weapons they have. I use them as Champions in other Chaos squads.


On the plus side, the Dark Vengeance set comes with a mini rule book. With 8th edition due out next summer (according to rumors), that will save you some money on buying a full rule book that will be obsolete in 6 months.

That's exactly what i figured. Investing in miniatures is not a big deal, but I wouldn't buy a D&D manual for an edition a month before a new edition would be coming out, would be a terrible waste. So it makes sense to do DV from a rules perspective, i'm all for it.

Regarding the Dark Angels - can i play them with any other space marine faction? For instance, DA + SW/BA/vanilla space marines?

As Dark Angels, yes. But they are a separate faction so your lists will have a dark angels faction + the other faction or factions. Space Wolves, Vanilla Space Marines, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels are all separate factions.

You could take a CAD of Dark Angels and add a formation from one of the others, or even a CAD of Dark Angels and a CAD of something else. I don't have time to go into all of the options, but it's covered in the rule books, and I am pretty sure that formations are here to stay when 8th edition comes.

Also note that Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, and Space Wolves each have their own codex.

All that said, if you want to paint your Dark Angels yellow and call them a Vanilla Space Marine successor chapter, that is 100% fine.

If I had to do over again, I would skip the DV box.

This is of course from my perspective though.

I purchased a Tactical Marine squad box. That was my first purchase about 6 months ago. I painted them up with my own custom chapter colors, and was ready to get a small army going.

I was talked into the DV set by the guy at my local GW. Said the value is great! You get all this stuff!!! Which is correct....kind of. The rulebook I did need. But I was going SM so the Chaos was not *needed*. Again I was told to sell off the Chaos if I dont need them, or paint them up for something different later. Ok....I bought it.

Now, using my own chapter and being anal about icons, I spend a ton of time shaving, scraping, and filing off all the DA icons. Thats not an easy task. But I did get Terminators, Bikes, a Librarian, and some bikes.....but so much work to get them un Dark Angle-ed.

Not only that, but Tactical Marines in the box are not as high quality of the newer SM Tacts. And you can tell. The Librarian....with some work....is one of my favorite models...again once you customize him a bit.

If I could do it over, I would grab the Start Collecting box, and then a-la-carte what I wanted next. Especially if price isnt a huge issue. You get better quality models, and more customization with separate purchases, and save yourself plenty of time of cutting/shaving off emblems if you dont want to play DA's.

Just my 2 cents.

Hmmm that is interesting.

Painting and collecting the models is a big part of it for me. So if they are noticeably lower quality, I would probably skip them. That is a very good observation and thank you for sharing.

That also opens it up to go down the path of BA or FW rather than just vanilla SM. Rather a difficult decision for me, since I like wolves in space but not getting a dreadnought makes me a sad panda, and I like blood angels but not getting a dreadnought, and getting another vehicle instead, makes me a lachrymose panda.

one comment: "you could just paint them yellow and call them space marines" - does the color matter? Like if i got blood angels, could i paint them blue?

The main perk of the DV set is the cheap-ish rulebook (technically it's more expensive, but you get some models to go along with it). Model-wise, unless you want those exact models, it's often better to just buy what you need rather than try to get a discount and work around it. Coming from someone who had to start with second-hand armies, it's far less fun to have to build around what models you got, rather than build the ideal army you planned yourself.

One major drawback with the DV sets is that those models are pretty set in their poses. They're snap-fit models and, to accommodate all that detail with a minimum of parts, those models are really not conversion friendly. You need very advanced modelling skills to change their loadouts or even just to repose them, which is not an issue with the Start Collecting Sets (which come with the full sprues for models with options and whatnot).

Also non wargear modifications (like banners, armor molding and such) do not have any effect in-game. You can paint your models periwinkle and as long as they're the same shape and on generally the right base, no one cares.

Unfortunately neither of you are planning to play Tau, but normally my recommendation would be buying the Killteam box-set to get the min rule book as you get a full Tactical Squad, a Firewarrior squad, and the mini rule for only +$25 over what a Tac Squad costs by itself.

Plus, while I'm biased because skirmish style 40k is my preference, the included Killteam rules are not bad for two people just starting 40k with not as many models.

None of my friends are playing Tau.

I went ahead and ordered Start Collecting! Space Marines & Chaos Space Marines for me and my lady friend.

Another friend is going Orks, another is going Eldar, and one more undecided.

I got them on Amazon prime for ~$146 total, with 2 day shipping. I had a couple gift cards from previous employers so I threw those on there, and surprise surprise, it was $50, so i ended up paying less than $100 for both start collecting kits. Score!

My plan is to get some brushes at Michael's. As far as paints go, I am still investigating deals. We're also considering buying a cheap airbrush. I like gradient style colors, like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHelmDAUeZc&t=1s that is such a sick paint job.

When i'm done painting i'll post some pictures.

Awesome!

I am excited to see your first mini's!

Best of luck man!

~Mikey

I think start collecting is better if you don't need rulebook. Dark vengeance of you need it and want to play DA and CSM. DA part is better IMO. You can convert the librarion ride on bike.

 Marmatag wrote:
Hmmm that is interesting.

Painting and collecting the models is a big part of it for me. So if they are noticeably lower quality, I would probably skip them. That is a very good observation and thank you for sharing.

That also opens it up to go down the path of BA or FW rather than just vanilla SM. Rather a difficult decision for me, since I like wolves in space but not getting a dreadnought makes me a sad panda, and I like blood angels but not getting a dreadnought, and getting another vehicle instead, makes me a lachrymose panda.

one comment: "you could just paint them yellow and call them space marines" - does the color matter? Like if i got blood angels, could i paint them blue?

Don't forget the generic start collecting space marines set. This can be used to portray Blood Angels or Space Wolves and comes with a Dreadnought. All you would need to do is put the necessary transfers on the shoulder pads for your chosen chapter

The quality of Dark Vengeance is very high, no company can macht that quality at those prices, the ammount of miniatures, dices and rulebook make the box an excellent purchase. Even if you don´t want to play Dar Angels you cant build them as allies for other Imperial force.

But If you really want Space Wolves, go for the Start Collecting, and maybe later buy the Dark Vengeance.

Any suggestions on paint kits? The "Get started painting marines" kit is kinda neat in that it comes with marines. but, that wouldn't help S paint her Chaos Marines. It would be nice to get a kit that could cover both armies.

My general plan is to try something like, base coat in black, primer. coat in dark blue like macragge blue (sp?), and then airbrush in a softer blue on top. Add some gradient white to give the appearance of sunlight / snow on the top of the miniature, and just for good measure, paint blood spattered on their hands, like they've been ripping out entrails all day. I may even go so far as to craft small sunglasses to put on my miniatures without a helmet, for the luls.

 Marmatag wrote:
Any suggestions on paint kits? The "Get started painting marines" kit is kinda neat in that it comes with marines. but, that wouldn't help S paint her Chaos Marines. It would be nice to get a kit that could cover both armies.

My general plan is to try something like, base coat in black, primer. coat in dark blue like macragge blue (sp?), and then airbrush in a softer blue on top. Add some gradient white to give the appearance of sunlight / snow on the top of the miniature, and just for good measure, paint blood spattered on their hands, like they've been ripping out entrails all day. I may even go so far as to craft small sunglasses to put on my miniatures without a helmet, for the luls.

Depends what you're after. Some people on Dakka disagree with me, but I actually use Krylon matte black primer (because it's cheap) and $.77 acrylic paint bottles. I've painted all of my armies this way and always had them come out to tabletop standard. That would be my suggestion to start with, a can of Krylon matte black and 10 or so colors to match your and hers color schemes.

If you're not too finicky, even dollar store paints will do. They look a tad chalky but not too bad (and really cheap!) Alternatively, look for FolkArt Acrylics. They're still decently cheap (something like 3-4 bucks a bottle, which is three times the size of a GW pot), come in a wide variety of colors and has literally lasted me a full decade (I mean not only painting models for a decade, but also not turning into gunk in the bottle).

I like the Dark Vengeance models. All the Chaos models are nice. The DA Tactical Marines are OK. Mono-pose and easy to build. But, decent looking. The DA Terminators are real nice. Yes, it would be a pain to de-DA the DA figs.

To prime and base coat my models, I use a Krylon (or similar manufacture's) satin or semi-gloss paint in the intended base color of the army (yes, I have been known to spray them on the sprue, I'm a Cretan). Note, this is enamel paint and will serve the purpose of primer. I match that with a paint pot for any clean up. If the primer is too glossy, I spray with a Matt coat and then paint over that. You can highlight or ink wash too taste.

Typically, I finish off with a Matt Coat.

OR

I have discovered that a can of Minwax water-based wood-stain makes a handy dip/ink wash. "What?" you say! That's nothing new. Or, is it? Through experimentation and neglect, I learned THE secret. Let if be! DO NOT shake or stir the wood stain. Let it sit. Let most of the pigment sink to the bottom. Then, "dip" your model in the pure essence that is the clear-ish base liquid. Then, don't fling the model about, just hold it upside down over the can and maybe shake off drops of excess satin. I also use a large brush to wipe the excess stain back into the can. Set aside to dry. Check the model after a bit to make sure there is no pooling of the stain in big creases like robe folds. This has a few significant advantages. It's cheap. It's easy. And, the stain will settle into every recess. I swear it. It looks like you actually gave a damn. Plus, without so much pigment, the stain will not darken the rest of the model overmuch. That's the big problem with oil-based stain, or freshly shaken water-based stain. You have to paint them in garishly bright colors, because the typical wood-stain will darken them. Finally, you can pant over the stain, because in it's diluted state, it dries with a matt finish. Who knew, right?

The Problem with DV is that the chaos side is hot garbage. True you get cultists which are always useful but thats about it. The chosen, while great looking, have a horrible load out which can hamper games when your opponent is a stickler for the WYSIWYG rule. Helbrutes are meh unless you are planning to take one of their formations and the chaos lord, while awesome looking, is a near total waste as you will never want to run him on foot outside of terminator armor and maybe, if you are masochistic, a Maelstrom of Gore formation form Traitors Hate, If you like the models I am sure you can find a way to make it work, esp if you dont play vs sticklers for WYSIWYG or competitive lists. So its good you didnt go DV, Id also stay away from buying any more marines for your chaos list as you dont need to run more than 5 man squads in most lists. Start looking at non bundle purchases from here on out.

If you're starting out look for the cheap acrylics from craft stores or Walmart (or whatever you have for Walmart if you don't have one). I highly recommend Apple Barrel paints from Walmart myself, they're $.50 a bottle USD and their flow compares well to GW (you're going to have to thin anything you use for best use though). I have a lot of folk art paint too but out of the bottle it requires a lot more thinning then Apple Barrel and it's more expensive ($1 USD at Walmart). The added work to use it is probably not something I would recommend if you're just getting started, Folk Art Metallics are really decent though.

the DV set can be very useful in the hands of a good modeller though. All of the non-bolter wielding chosen can either be converted into Dark Apostles or sorcerors (and with a bit of a flying base stand, you can turn them into sorcerors on discs). The helbrute can be made into a Daemon Prince with some tinkering. However, most of these modifications assume you already have some bitz lying around...which would imply you already have an army of sorts and would kinda render this as a "starter army" moot.

Picking up DV AFTER you have already got your starters is something I would recommend. As a CSM player, this is what I did. I sold the SM models for a nice profit, got a free rulebook, some neat models that I also use as aspiring champions, and a buncha cultists, which are great gap fillers for chaos. Really, the cultists are the best part of the box for chaos. Helbrutes got a buff from the FAQ, and can pack a bit more punch if you can get them into melee (helps if you run their formation). The neat thing about cultists is nobody is going to care if they look bad, as they're just cannon fodder. This makes them a great work surface for learning how to paint. I encourage you to get several friends together and have a paint night. A few beers in and you'll have free paint slaves, and they'll likely at least play a few low point games with the models.

If you've already ordered the starter sets, you don't really need Dark Vengeance. And, as previously observed, the Dark Angels are covered in their iconography and idiosyncratic garb. The amount of time you'd put into un-DAing them isn't really worth the effort. On the Chaos side, the Lord is okay, the Helbrute can be fun, and the Cultists are definitely worth having. Cultists are all kinds of useful as cheap objective-holders and bubble wrap for more important units. As for the Chosen, they're not an ideal unit, but you can break them up and use them as Aspiring Champions for CSM units.

Following up!

I have the getting started kits.

All of our units are assembled. It took about 7 hours, counting google time, for the various options in my kit.

For example, my specialist marine had the option of a flamethrower, grav gun, plasma cannon, etc, and the sergeant had a sword, chainsword, power fist. I had to google what all of these were, based on their image, because they don't tell you which one is which. And if you don't know what you're looking at, a grav gun is indistinguishable from a plasma cannon.

In regards to actual assembly, i had the following tools which really helped:

1. Model cement (glue). It goes on wet and goopy but dries into a plastic style cement fairly quickly, within 20 minutes. This allowed me to apply liberally to a cardboard sheet (the box, flattened) and then wand it precisely into the areas i needed.

2. Glue wands. Little plastic, disposable wands with a very tiny head with bristles. Perfect for scooping up a little bit of glue, and then painting it onto the exact area that needs glue. It also made it so i didn't have any glue sticking out of the edges. You won't see any glue on my miniatures thanks to these. Epic value.

3. Tweezers. Needed these far less than I thought I would. I used them to apply grenades to my marines' belts, because I didn't do it until after the arms were attached.

4. Snipping tool. For removing units from the plastic grid. Very useful. Some pieces are really solidly attached to the plastic, and you can't twist them free. These were essential to me. Well worth the $7.

5. (edited, forgot it) Sandpaper. I bought some fine sand paper which was helpful for sanding down some spots. Probably could have done without it, but it was still nice to have. And cheap.

I got all of my assembly stuff from HobbyLobby for pretty cheap. I think roughly ~$25 in total (counting 2 bottles of glue, brushes, and the other stuff.)

There are a few units that deserve a caveat. I couldn't decide what I wanted to do with my dreadnought's second arm. He can have a Twin Linked Laser Cannon, a Plasma Cannon, and a Minigun. Because the arms go on snug enough, I am not going to glue it, which means i can swap them out and try different options. I will be painting them separately. Some of my other units I will be painting in pieces because of the nature of the assembly covering up a lot of the finer points that are still exposed.

I have begun priming. I am doing this by hand, and applying 2 coats per unit. I've done everything except my dreadnought, rocket launcher marine, and bolter/powerfist commander guy.

It's a time consuming process versus spray paint, but I like the idea of putting as thin of a layer on as possible. There are a ton of tiny details I don't want to fill up with paint, and also I want to paint in pieces so i have options (ala Dreadnought).

The next stage is to decide on a color scheme.

I'm thinking of going for a scheme basically:

1. abaddon black over the entire miniature (over the primer).
2. silver (leadbelcher?) dry brush over most of it to create a metallic look.
3. paint some spots with white base, and layer on one of the bone/screaming skull colors.
4. highlight with green & gold depending on the feature.

Because I decided not to go airbursh on my first minis (totes expense) I changed the scheme slightly.

Also I meant to click "edit" and clicked "exalt." Wurps.

Start Collecting.