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he would of gave us the option to choose

an option for democracy, an option if we really wanted him to be our leader...

he did not give the Imperium that choice

Humanity had, without the Emperor's rule, become a fractured and endangered species amidst the stars whilst turning Earth into a nuclear wasteland where barbarians waged constant war.

Suffice it to say that humanity sort of lost the right to choose. Without the Emperor (largely) uniting humanity, humans never would have amounted to anything.

In 40k, democracies almost inevitably fall from within to Tzeentchian cults, and then become daemon-infested with ritual sacrifice and rampant mutations.

If you give humans a choice, they will almost certainly make the wrong one... one need only look at the election results in the US as evidence of that.

 Psienesis wrote:
In 40k, democracies almost inevitably fall from within to Tzeentchian cults, and then become daemon-infested with ritual sacrifice and rampant mutations.

If you give humans a choice, they will almost certainly make the wrong one... one need only look at the election results in the US as evidence of that.

I'm waiting for the bolt of lightning the signals the arrival of the Trump supporters..

Democracy sounds good, but it's very ineficient. The Imperium lives in a state of constant war and a democratic government would not be able to rule. Besides who would elect it? How would stone-age peofle on feral worlds fit into that system?Should the votes of a planet count if it was exterminated a few days after voting? Human rights, non-government organizations, LGBT activists... Very inefficient. The best examplein our history how a country should react is the Soviet Union during WW II - almost total mobilisation, throwing all resorces at sustaining the army and manufecturing weapons. That's prety much what Big E did. Therefor he did most things right,no need to question him, heretic!

Imagine EVERYONE's God runs for Leader. Who's gonna win that election?

Nurgle, of course. He's the jolly diseased Santa Claus! What's not to love?

LightKing wrote:
he would of gave us the option to choose

an option for democracy, an option if we really wanted him to be our leader...

he did not give the Imperium that choice

The Imperium isn't supposed to be an ideal society - not even the Emperor's version from when he was still kicking around. The whole setting is a satirical caricature laden with dark humor and tragedy. The Emperor isn't supposed to be a heroic role model any more than the forces of Chaos are, really - he's betrayed and murdered and committed genocide, just as they have.

The difference is that, in-setting, the Imperium is less likely to do something horrible to you than its enemies.

(And before someone says Tau, remember that they've probably got a post for Official New Friend Greeter and have tried to be best buddies with Orks, Necrons, and Dark Eldar.)

you know Guilliman is suppose to be a genius so why didn't he transition the Empire after The Emperor was wounded and he took charge of the Imperium....why didn't he transition to a democracy

LightKing wrote:
you know Guilliman is suppose to be a genius so why didn't he transition the Empire after The Emperor was wounded and he took charge of the Imperium....why didn't he transition to a democracy

Did you not read what people just posted? Democracy, especially on such a galactic-wide scale, is not realistically feasible or reasonable to represent the myriad parts of the Imperium that are being reconquered or discovered or lost. The bureaucracy in the Imperium is already bad enough currently without democracy that regiments can be destroyed but not get recorded as such and be posthumously executed to death when they don't show up to wherever they're assigned. If Ultramar wasn't a democracy, why would you think Guilliman would bother to try and make the Imperium democratic?

The Imperium isn't the government of all it's planets. The planets run pretty much independently. All the Imperium requires is tithes, personnel, worship the Emperor, and purge the heretic/xenos/mutant.

 Gobbla wrote:
The Imperium isn't the government of all it's planets. The planets run pretty much independently. All the Imperium requires is tithes, personnel, worship the Emperor, and purge the heretic/xenos/mutant.

The Imperium is basically 'Protection' racket?

Makes sense when they say The Emperor Protects, I guess

It's a protection racket like every Empire on Earth has ever been, where the majority of the little people keeping things running with their blood and sweat are below the notice of the ruling body. They are only noticed if the tithes dry up, and most of the protection they get is usually incidental, not on purpose.

The Emperor has been around since medieval times hasn't he?

Who's to say he hasn't already given us that choice?

 General Kroll wrote:
The Emperor has been around since medieval times hasn't he?

Who's to say he hasn't already given us that choice?

There was probably a referendum, which at the time got the majority vote and subsequent generations will just have to live with regardless of what they want.

LightKing wrote:
you know Guilliman is suppose to be a genius so why didn't he transition the Empire after The Emperor was wounded and he took charge of the Imperium....why didn't he transition to a democracy

He tried to start up the Imperium 2: Macragge Boogaloo before that and it failed.

In the old fluff, the Emperor was around before organized civilizations. He was the psychic amalgamation of a number of ancient sorcerers. Or, some damn thing.

The Imperium maybe divided into a million separate world governments, instead of one overarching Galactic Top-Down government for the same reasons the military forces of the Imperium are fragmented, the Ecclesiarch is restricted, and Inquisition is all pervasive. Firstly, due to logistics. But, mainly due to the requirement to keep power diversified. To protect against another Heresy (in whatever form it takes). In the GrimDark, man's worst enemy is man.

The Emperor cared about humanity's survival, not necessarily their welfare (although it's pretty hard to have a good quality of life while you're a being eaten by 'nids).

Democracy is preferable in a peacetime environment, but autocracy has significant benefits during conflict. Considering that in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, it's pretty much 'sack it up or get eaten/sacrificed/manipulated/processed/enslaved'...

LightKing wrote:
you know Guilliman is suppose to be a genius so why didn't he transition the Empire after The Emperor was wounded and he took charge of the Imperium....why didn't he transition to a democracy

Because Guilliman is a hypocrite who forced other Primarchs to relinquish their authority while setting up a mini empire for his own chapter and its successors. Worked really well too, so he probably actually was a genius.

Why are you assuming these people to be morally good? They're not, they're arseholes, just like everyone in 40K.

 Crimson wrote:

Because Guilliman is a hypocrite who forced other Primarchs to relinquish their authority while setting up a mini empire for his own chapter and its successors. Worked really well too, so he probably actually was a genius.

Yeah this is the thing I like the most about Guilliman if you think about it, he's really a sneaky b*stard, which fits much better into the whole 'no good guys' thing 40k has going on.

He split up the legions, and divided up the Astartes, IG and the Navy so no single person would hold all that power in their hands.

Then, he ensures that Ultramar survives. He groups the majority of his successor chapters close to him, giving them sections of Ultramar to recruit from. Oh, and there's also the Ultramar PDF, which are equipped better than the IG, and also obey the commands of the Ultramarines.

So essentially, he's the only SM chapter master who has the dedicated IG support of 500 worlds.

Also, aren't PDF forces allowed to maintain fleet/aerial forces, unlike the IG?

Hah what if the End Times rolls around, Guilliman wakes up, and completely turns his back on the Imperium choosing to secede his little Ultramar utopia? Would certainly be an interesting twist

No. OP and every single one who's posted on this thread please do me a favor. Pick up any single 40k novel you have lying around that is not a horus heresy book. Open it on it's first page and read it. It should be the same page in every book. Only post on this thread after having read said page.

 Nerak wrote:
No. OP and every single one who's posted on this thread please do me a favor. Pick up any single 40k novel you have lying around that is not a horus heresy book. Open it on it's first page and read it. It should be the same page in every book. Only post on this thread after having read said page.

I don't own any. But I can guess...

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

Or something like that, yis?

"For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the golden throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the dark age of technology. He is the carrion lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, and for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh - the stuff of which the Imperium is made. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. This is the tales of these times. It is a universe you can live today if you dare - for this is a dark and terrible era where you will find little comfort or hope. Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods. But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed"
-this is the original page

40k is where you don't matter. Your voice don't matter. Your opinion don't matter. Where you to die a million is there to take your place. The ones that rule owe nothing to you and all you can do is be thankfull that you are not yet dead. Forget freedom, rights and justice. You are a worthless piece of meat and where you to rebel for a better world the death that would come to you would be far better then much greater people then you have deserved. Whatever happens you will not be missed.

can someone tell me why the imperium could not be an efficient democracy and still fight the xenos and chaos threat?

 Nerak wrote:
No. OP and every single one who's posted on this thread please do me a favor. Pick up any single 40k novel you have lying around that is not a horus heresy book. Open it on it's first page and read it. It should be the same page in every book. Only post on this thread after having read said page.

Spreading out, the necrons had enveloped them. Bolters tracked and fired to compensate, relying on advanced targetting sensors - the mist was so bad that the enemy were litterally appearing as if from nowhere, and in numbers. 'Brother, my flank has been compromised'. It was Atavian through the comfeed in Iulus's helmet.

You get the point, but feel free to remove your head from your butt when you're ready.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LightKing wrote:
can someone tell me why the imperium could not be an efficient democracy and still fight the xenos and chaos threat?

It's too big and running mostly on a 10k year old system, full of corruption. Where political power and position is passed down through families and held onto very tightly as they try to backstab each other for more power.

Haha, guess I deserve it. Was an overly dramatic way of saying 40k with a democracy would not be 40k anymore.

I agree, it loses part of itself when they remove stuff like bureaucrats being able to threaten others with red tape to gain leverage over them.

LightKing wrote:
can someone tell me why the imperium could not be an efficient democracy and still fight the xenos and chaos threat?

'cause that's not the point of the setting

They're supposed to be a dying empire, a bloated, inefficient carcass of a government running on a mishmash of theocracy, fascism, and the feudal system. The Imperium's ability to govern benevolently is only matched by the Mechanicum's ability to understand technology. If every planet gets a voice in government, and every official is a duly elected representative of the people...well, first off, the fact that they have to communicate via Astropathic signal would play havoc with that, and second, it would lose a good chunk of the underlying theme.

Individual planets can certainly have democracies. They just tend not to do all that well and have to answer to the Imperium at large.

 Spinner wrote:

LightKing wrote:
can someone tell me why the imperium could not be an efficient democracy and still fight the xenos and chaos threat?

'cause that's not the point of the setting

They're supposed to be a dying empire, a bloated, inefficient carcass of a government running on a mishmash of theocracy, fascism, and the feudal system. The Imperium's ability to govern benevolently is only matched by the Mechanicum's ability to understand technology. If every planet gets a voice in government, and every official is a duly elected representative of the people...well, first off, the fact that they have to communicate via Astropathic signal would play havoc with that, and second, it would lose a good chunk of the underlying theme.

Individual planets can certainly have democracies. They just tend not to do all that well and have to answer to the Imperium at large.

Interstellar communication is unreliable and can result in information distortion or loss, and it can also take time. Astropaths are usually employed by planetary governments, noble houses, or large commercial enterprises/corporations. They are not used for sending frivolous messages.

While theoretically the Imperium might allow a planet to set up some form of democratic rule, there may be other factors that in effect lead to the Imperium preferring nobility, dictators, or oligarchies. Namely, the Imperium wants reliability in government (instead of one switching every few years) and steady tithes. These tithes may not be directly in the interests of the world that pays them, and may seem like unfair taxes imposed by a distant uncaring overlord. The level of tithes seems also to be set to extract maximum resources from the people so would be likely to breed hostility or resentment. The people of a world may not be educated enough to appreciate the consequences of paying or not paying their tithes. If they voted someone in that refused to pay tithes, the Imperium would eventually act to remove them, and in the process might topple any democratic system of government entirely in favor of a more reliable system.

In fact, one of the Dark Heresy RPG antagonists I seem to recall was a humane popular Imperial Governor. The Imperium then decided his world could be more productive and increased the taxes. Realizing that the only way to meet these increased demands was by oppressing his people (as well as devastating the ecosystem), the Imperial Governor rebelled to spare his people that suffering. The PCs mission was to kill or topple that governor so that a more pliable one could be set up that would do the oppressing and extract the needed resources.


People need to realize the Imperium (and that includes the Space Marines) are not "good guys".

Iracundus wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

LightKing wrote:
can someone tell me why the imperium could not be an efficient democracy and still fight the xenos and chaos threat?

'cause that's not the point of the setting

They're supposed to be a dying empire, a bloated, inefficient carcass of a government running on a mishmash of theocracy, fascism, and the feudal system. The Imperium's ability to govern benevolently is only matched by the Mechanicum's ability to understand technology. If every planet gets a voice in government, and every official is a duly elected representative of the people...well, first off, the fact that they have to communicate via Astropathic signal would play havoc with that, and second, it would lose a good chunk of the underlying theme.

Individual planets can certainly have democracies. They just tend not to do all that well and have to answer to the Imperium at large.

Interstellar communication is unreliable and can result in information distortion or loss, and it can also take time. Astropaths are usually employed by planetary governments, noble houses, or large commercial enterprises/corporations. They are not used for sending frivolous messages.

That's my point exactly. Not sure where you got 'frivolous messages' from, but if the Imperium was an elected government, can you imagine the confusion? Votes delayed, votes distorted by daemonic influence, Astropathic officials burning themselves out recounting, votes popping in from the past or future...