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So here is where I am getting this information.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/26/war-zone-fenris-wrath-of-magnus-review-dataslates-and-special-rules/

Now since we have something a bit more concrete, we should start analyzing what is going on here with the new Rubricae.

First we see that they are the same points cost, but have a few new "upgrades" which we will get into in a moment. Then we see that they get some special rules, +1 to invul save if they have a blessing, and others that are borderline useless, and one that, arguably, benefits the enemy it affects more than TS. Finally we have the sorcerer which is still ML1 costs the same and is still shackled to the Tzeentch table. So what spells will actually help us achieve the goal of adding 1 to our invul save? Here's a quick list by Discipline.

Bio-1 Endurance

Div-2 Prescience, Perfect Timing

San-1 Sanctuary (caveat)

Kin-1 Levitation

Path-2 Invis, Shrouding (caveat)

Ecto-1 Soul Switch

Geo-1 Earthly Anathema

Here-1 Fleshmetal Hide

Now you may be counting these and saying that's not enough? And you would be right I left out the Disciplines that have no blessings that affect entire units, and left out blessings that would not benefit Rubricae in any real way. (E.G. Fire Shield adds a 4+ cover save, and is in no way useful to a unit that already has a 4+ invul save.) You also might be noticing the Tzeentch discipline is absent you would also be correct, since of the two blessings that are now in that discipline neither affect the unit, neither can be used to get the +1 invul save bonus, remember it must affect the UNIT, anything that affects a single model does not affect the unit and, as such, does not activate the special rule.

So now we are at an impasse we have paid for a Sorcerer (who still has a 33% chance of getting a useless spell), which has no reasonable way to activate this special rule that we are supposed to be able to use. This means we need to purchase another Sorcerer, which isn't all that big a deal since its TS and TS are all about mind bullets. But because of Chaos Psychic Focus rule you can't just roll everything on on a particular

So let's get into some of the more interesting combos.

Sanctuary can only be gotten by the normal sorcerer, which isn't all that bad, and helps keep the price down. Now with this if you take a Skyshield Landing Pad you are actually able to get a 2++ with any unit in a TS army, So Havocs, can have a 2++, BUT its only ranged attacks so keep that in mind.

Shrouding is another situation where you can create a good save, albeit a cover save, what you're going to do here is bring anything that has a 4+ cover save and stick three units rather tightly together, that's not news right? Well the Favored of Tzeentch special rule lets you reroll ALL failed saves of 1 so the only things that will be able to kill you will be stupid amounts of small arms, or ignores cover stuff, but even then you will still have a 3++ rerolling 1s. On this topic if you really like the idea of Rubricae with flamers you can take promethean pipelines, which will give torrent to your flamers. The big difference between this and the above entry is that this one will affect multiple units 2-3 at a time, depending on unit size, which means you only have to get 1 shrouding to have a very durable army.

At this point some of you are pulling your hair out saying "FORCE AFFECTS THE UNIT" and your right it does, what you're not taking into account is the fact that if you want to have a decent enough chance of getting that spell off you're going to have to throw 3 dice at it, which will drain your dice pool and give you no real benefit, or your other option is get a separate psyker, and cast Prescience on the unit you are much better off throwing 3 dice at prescience, then you are casting force.

And now we come to the disappointing part since the "reroll 1s for saves" is part of a formation and that requires you to max out the units in the formation to get that benefit, your looking at a hefty price tag, even a small force of 2 units of Rubric Marines, 1 Unit of Scarab Occult Terminators, and 1 Exalted Sorcerer the bare minimum which is 16 Models comes out to 715 points, keep in mind something that small will probably not be available, and that is without any upgrades.

All in all there is no way to consider a PURE TS army viable, for 1000 points having less than 20 models on the table (even if there are 4 sorcerers) you will simply not be able to do anything against an enemy that can kill most of your models with weight of fire tactics.

Keep in mind we still do not know what the Icon of Flame does now, and there may be some options that allow you to cast additional spells that are blessings, but since we haven't seen anything like that I doubt it will happen.

This probably belongs in 40k tactics

Hey Man,

While this isn't a set in stone rule, there are usually not tactics threads until after the actual release. This helps cutdown on misinformation.

The main thread is also still open, until the release so it is generally frowned upon to create new threads.

We get it, you're disappointed, TS didn't turned out The way you would have liked them. Let this grudge of yours rest for a few days and then come back. Seriously you're looking rather unfriendly.

I'm more worried about what's going to be left out of the rules due to the no model/no rule thing.

Do we see 1KSons have no rules for HQ Sorcerers in Terminator Armour because there's technically no miniature for it (there's a Terminator Sorcerer Lord sure, and a Scarab Occult Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, but no 1KSons Sorcerer Lord in Terminator Armour).

I happened with Deathwatch (no Termy Chaplains for you!), and again with Genestealer Cult (your Primus can only ever have a Needle Pistol, so sayeth the miniatures!), so I can see it happening here as well.

 Ir0njack wrote:
This probably belongs in 40k tactics

Yes it was supposed to be in Tactics I'll contact a MOD to ask them to move this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
Hey Man,

While this isn't a set in stone rule, there are usually not tactics threads until after the actual release. This helps cutdown on misinformation.

The main thread is also still open, until the release so it is generally frowned upon to create new threads.

The things in here are from Front Line Gaming and on Bell of the Lost Souls the correlating information is the exact same. I even specifically said that the things we don't know about are options but that doesn't change what I said as a whole. Lastly this was supposed to be in tactics not News and Rumors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seneca wrote:
We get it, you're disappointed, TS didn't turned out The way you would have liked them. Let this grudge of yours rest for a few days and then come back. Seriously you're looking rather unfriendly.

If you had actually read this it wasn't a condemnation it was "the units are good but there still overpriced which is the problem from my perspective and here are some ways to mitigate that"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm more worried about what's going to be left out of the rules due to the no model/no rule thing.

Do we see 1KSons have no rules for HQ Sorcerers in Terminator Armour because there's technically no miniature for it (there's a Terminator Sorcerer Lord sure, and a Scarab Occult Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, but no 1KSons Sorcerer Lord in Terminator Armour).

I happened with Deathwatch (no Termy Chaplains for you!), and again with Genestealer Cult (your Primus can only ever have a Needle Pistol, so sayeth the miniatures!), so I can see it happening here as well.

Don't think that's a problem since you can still get Sorcerers from the CSM Codex, Plus at 165 points adding just Terminator Armor will bump you up to 190 points, which is a lot of points for a single model.

What about Force? That's a unit-wide buff. And hell, the stock TSons Sorcerer knows it too!

 JNAProductions wrote:
What about Force? That's a unit-wide buff. And hell, the stock TSons Sorcerer knows it too!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
At this point some of you are pulling your hair out saying "FORCE AFFECTS THE UNIT" and your right it does, what you're not taking into account is the fact that if you want to have a decent enough chance of getting that spell off you're going to have to throw 3 dice at it, which will drain your dice pool and give you no real benefit, or your other option is get a separate psyker, and cast Prescience on the unit you are much better off throwing 3 dice at prescience, then you are casting force.

I addressed that.

any unit with VotLW that is affected by a blessing has their invul save improved by 1

Does this mean that Boon of Mutation or Siphon Magic will trigger the improved Invul?

Do we know 100% that it has to be a unit-wide blessing?

Do we know that you can't take Spell Familiars for a 3+ rerollable?

Yoyoyo wrote:

any unit with VotLW that is affected by a blessing has their invul save improved by 1

Does this mean that Boon of Mutation or Siphon Magic will trigger the improved Invul?

Do we know 100% that it has to be a unit-wide blessing?

Do we know that you can't take Spell Familiars for a 3+ rerollable?

The boon "affects a character" and Siphon Magic "affects the psyker" neither affect the unit.

not any model in the unit, the unit as a whole. And even if you did that only the model would benefit, since they are the only one being affected by said spell. Spell Familiars don't reduce the number only allow a reroll. And now your paying for a Spell Familiar on a ML 1 psyker.

To be honest it will probably have to be FAQed

 Seneca wrote:
We get it, you're disappointed, TS didn't turned out The way you would have liked them. Let this grudge of yours rest for a few days and then come back. Seriously you're looking rather unfriendly.

Sorry but looking at the OP's avatar, I think the guy/gal is quite a fan of the XV Legion. If he waited all this time and with pen and paper evaluated the exact content of the codex, counted points and wrote lists, analysed the synergies and the lack of thereof, you cannot just say "go away you are bitter".

You either write something to counter that, or you admit that the codex has been PhilKellied again and refrain from attacking a poster because he posted an analysis.

Also, OP: the profile of the sons remained unchanged? I was expecting they re-introduced the 2 wounds or lowered the costs... al this nostalgia, Jeanstealer Cults and whatnot, and no 2W TS?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Also, OP: the profile of the sons remained unchanged? I was expecting they re-introduced the 2 wounds or lowered the costs... al this nostalgia, Jeanstealer Cults and whatnot, and no 2W TS?

Nope, still 1W, still SnP, and still 23 Points. They added S4 AP4 Flamers for 7 points but on SnP models, its not much of an upgrade. The Soul Reaper Cannon is S5 AP3 Heavy 4 Rending but requires 10 in the squad and costs 25 points.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The Soul Reaper Cannon is S5 AP3 Heavy 4 Rending but requires 10 in the squad and costs 25 points.

It's designed to reap the souls of those who want to field it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm more worried about what's going to be left out of the rules due to the no model/no rule thing.

Is it me or is this one of the worst things that's happened to 40k?

Terrible panic-reaction to IP flouting that'll prove really restricting later down the line.

Why sell me a Sorcerer when you can sell me a Sorceror and give me a nudge to buy a Terminator kit as well so I can mash them together and make a Terminator Sorcerer? Plus, it means that it's easier to make more balanced rules...

I was kind of hoping that that panic reaction was ebbing away after the initial shock...

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Also, OP: the profile of the sons remained unchanged? I was expecting they re-introduced the 2 wounds or lowered the costs... al this nostalgia, Jeanstealer Cults and whatnot, and no 2W TS?

Nope, still 1W, still SnP, and still 23 Points. They added S4 AP4 Flamers for 7 points but on SnP models, its not much of an upgrade. The Soul Reaper Cannon is S5 AP3 Heavy 4 Rending but requires 10 in the squad and costs 25 points.

How many flamers a unit can take, and could one MSU with flamers? Still, is 30 pt/model. The costs are all over the place again.

As stated, PhilKellied.

Most of those rules (sans the horrors insanity) are reasonable. I was not expecting a points decrease for anything so not getting one is not going to sting. The thing I was hoping for but it looks like we didnt get were screamers that dropped the demonic instability rule for fearless (like hounds). Then disc sorcs could be fielded (by me) because I have a big problem putting out high priced sorcs without a body guard unit. Putting them with spawn is OK, but it kills the point of a disc in the first place. Oh well, cant win em all.

I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper. I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

Better to wait for the book then. I have no faith in the designers after a streak of pathetic failures, but we still have not the complete picture. So, far, is bleak.

Nvs wrote:
I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

Where are you getting that you need to "max the formation" to get the +1 benefit for the Blessings? That rule("Blessing of Tzeentch") applies to units with Veterans of the Long War. Since you're required to take VoTLW, at no points cost, it's not really a bad thing.

The rule(called "Favoured of Tzeentch") for maxing out the units in a formation is the ability to reroll all failed saving throws of 1s.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper.

The only real weapon upgrade they got is the Soulreaper Cannon. Which is a slightly better version of an Assault Cannon, on a Slow and Purposeful infantry unit.

As it stands though? The Sorcerer didn't need to be level 2. He's there to cast Blessings on the squad and boost their Invulnerable save.

I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

Yeah...let's be 100% honest here. They didn't give them flamers in the sense of "1 model can take a Special Weapon". They gave the whole unit the option to swap their Inferno Boltguns for an AP4 Flamer on Rubric Marines. Terminators get an AP3 Heavy Flamer.

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

They're Terminators with an in-built boost to their Invulnerable Save thanks to "Blessing of Tzeentch", with a ML2 Sorcerer with 2 Wounds as their Blessbot.

Nvs wrote:
I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper. I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

Well that is the inherent evil of supplements and offshoot codex's ( KDK ), you cant monkey with prices because changing the price in one book upsets the balance of others. Its a horrible system and sadly itll probably bleed into our next codex. I would not expect a point decrease until 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment ( a total system reset). The tax is here to stay. Nothing to do about it except accept it and try to find enjoyment where you can.




Edit : I think the big issue here is that people were expecting marines to be elevated to loyalist levels of power. And that was and is never going to happen. Ever. What we do have is a upper tier force ( not the big 5 tier) that may see some tourney play. Demons are just going to get even better than they were before the supplement. For some reaason, GW has it set in stone that CSM cant rise above a certain level of power. Perhaps its fear of another 3.5 codex upsetting loyalist sales? I dont know, but I do know its here to stay.

Table wrote:

Nvs wrote:
I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper. I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

Well that is the inherent evil of supplements and offshoot codex's ( KDK ), you cant monkey with prices because changing the price in one book upsets the balance of others. Its a horrible system and sadly itll probably bleed into our next codex. I would not expect a point decrease until 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment ( a total system reset). The tax is here to stay. Nothing to do about it except accept it and try to find enjoyment where you can.

The same thing can be said about any number of things. Rapid fire weapons, wargear prices, etc etc.

Edit : I think the big issue here is that people were expecting marines to be elevated to loyalist levels of power. And that was and is never going to happen. Ever. What we do have is a upper tier force ( not the big 5 tier) that may see some tourney play. Demons are just going to get even better than they were before the supplement. For some reaason, GW has it set in stone that CSM cant rise above a certain level of power. Perhaps its fear of another 3.5 codex upsetting loyalist sales? I dont know, but I do know its here to stay.

I'm really sick and tired of hearing this crap about "loyalist levels of power". Even within the Loyalist Marines book and its supplements, the power levels vary wildly.

Unless you really want to try to argue that someone taking a Raven Guard Detachment with no CADs is on equal footing with the other Chapter specific Detachments.

Realistically? The thing that always gets whined and whined about is the Loyalists having Grav and easy access to Librarians but Chaos not having something similar. They now have an entire book which is basically Codex: Chaos Marines as Interpreted by Eldar.

Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

 Kanluwen wrote:

The same thing can be said about any number of things. Rapid fire weapons, wargear prices, etc etc.

And this makes it less wrong because.........?
....?

Also, Jeanstealers were changed (5++). When they bother to care, they create fixes/discrepancies. Point being, since the CSM codex was written by you know who, those "basic" CSM rules are considered untouchable and perfect, apparently...

I'm really sick and tired of hearing this crap about "loyalist levels of power". Even within the Loyalist Marines book and its supplements, the power levels vary wildly.

Unless you really want to try to argue that someone taking a Raven Guard Detachment with no CADs is on equal footing with the other Chapter specific Detachments.

Realistically? The thing that always gets whined and whined about is the Loyalists having Grav and easy access to Librarians but Chaos not having something similar. They now have an entire book which is basically Codex: Chaos Marines as Interpreted by Eldar.

They are part of the same problem, really. There are specific subfaction with specific combo/gimmicks that make people assume that a whole faction is OP or at least "usable". In 3rd, I needed one book for a slaanesh army, now I cannot make a decent one with ...? Six?
Let's see legions but the pattern speaks for itself. And even if the legion book suddenly introduces a non-gimmicky EC Slaanesh list, it means the design team finally delivered now what should have delivered on day 1.

But let's wait and see the whole picture, with this book included.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The same thing can be said about any number of things. Rapid fire weapons, wargear prices, etc etc.

And this makes it less wrong because.........?
....?

Also, Jeanstealers were changed (5++). When they bother to care, they create fixes/discrepancies.

Purestrain Genestealers.

They actually made it a separate unit entry.

Point being, since the CSM codex was written by you know who, those "basic" CSM rules are considered untouchable and perfect, apparently...

No, I don't know who. Who? Who is it that considers the "basic" CSM rules untouchable and perfect?

I'm really sick and tired of hearing this crap about "loyalist levels of power". Even within the Loyalist Marines book and its supplements, the power levels vary wildly.

Unless you really want to try to argue that someone taking a Raven Guard Detachment with no CADs is on equal footing with the other Chapter specific Detachments.

Realistically? The thing that always gets whined and whined about is the Loyalists having Grav and easy access to Librarians but Chaos not having something similar. They now have an entire book which is basically Codex: Chaos Marines as Interpreted by Eldar.

They are part of the same problem, really. There are specific subfaction with specific combo/gimmicks that make people assume that a whole faction is OP or at least "usable". In 3rd, I needed one book for a slaanesh army, now I cannot make a decent one with ...? Six?
Let's see legions but the pattern speaks for itself. And even if the legion book suddenly introduces a non-gimmicky EC Slaanesh list, it means the design team finally delivered now what should have delivered on day 1.

Let's be honest. You could never make a "non-gimmicky EC Slaanesh list". They, like the Thousand Sons before this upcoming book and list, were just "Lucius, Bile, Noise Marines and Mark of Slaanesh on all the other things" with a bit of "LOLZ DOOMRIDER!" thrown in.

I remain hopeful that Death Guard, EC, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and the other Legions will get some love like Thousand Sons are now. Seeing some distinctly fleshed out Legion stuff.

I think this is a great release. Model wise and rule wise.

Cannot wait to play test.

No they are not invincible and are 23 pts though still very workable if you focus on Sorcery being your strategy and not power armor.

Looking forward to Bat Reps.

From what we currenlty see, I feel there are a few thing we can take away.

One of the first is, that sadly, Rubric Marines still are not very good. Even with all of the buffs, I do not see them being taken besides what is required fro the War Cabal. I beleive that we can make this up with Pink Horrors ad Tzaangors though. The Warheard appears to be a pretty strong formation, and the Tzaangors will provide pretty good Objective secured, and fodder.

One of the hardest aspects to evaluate is how the psychic phase is going to go. There has never been army that is going to dominate this phase so hard, and it may end up tilting the army toward the more competitive side. It is hard to tell at this point in time, but is quite possible. Currently, the biggest issues i see this army dealing with are Heavy Armour and 2+ Saves with high T. We will see if any cohesive lists form together over time.

Overall, I think this release puts the army solidly in the middle. We are much better off than the likes of Orks and others, but are not going to de-throne the Eldar.

 Sasori wrote:
Overall, I think this release puts the army solidly in the middle. We are much better off than the likes of Orks and others, but are not going to de-throne the Eldar.

And thank god for that. Hopefully 8th brings the out of control codex's and rules DOWN and these supplements bring the weaker codexs UP slightly but not to the levels of insanity we are used to seeing.

Purestrain genestealers. And create a unit called "Rubric's Sons" or whatever would have been too difficult?

Moreover, in that codex the "purestrain" is because of the context.

Let's wait and see.

The special snowflake is Kelly. Everything he touches is either dumb (wolves) weak and convoluted (CSM) or OP (eldar).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Table wrote:

Nvs wrote:
I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper. I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

Well that is the inherent evil of supplements and offshoot codex's ( KDK ), you cant monkey with prices because changing the price in one book upsets the balance of others. Its a horrible system and sadly itll probably bleed into our next codex. I would not expect a point decrease until 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment ( a total system reset). The tax is here to stay. Nothing to do about it except accept it and try to find enjoyment where you can.

The same thing can be said about any number of things. Rapid fire weapons, wargear prices, etc etc.

Edit : I think the big issue here is that people were expecting marines to be elevated to loyalist levels of power. And that was and is never going to happen. Ever. What we do have is a upper tier force ( not the big 5 tier) that may see some tourney play. Demons are just going to get even better than they were before the supplement. For some reaason, GW has it set in stone that CSM cant rise above a certain level of power. Perhaps its fear of another 3.5 codex upsetting loyalist sales? I dont know, but I do know its here to stay.

I'm really sick and tired of hearing this crap about "loyalist levels of power". Even within the Loyalist Marines book and its supplements, the power levels vary wildly.

Unless you really want to try to argue that someone taking a Raven Guard Detachment with no CADs is on equal footing with the other Chapter specific Detachments.

Realistically? The thing that always gets whined and whined about is the Loyalists having Grav and easy access to Librarians but Chaos not having something similar. They now have an entire book which is basically Codex: Chaos Marines as Interpreted by Eldar.

I dont think you want to argue that Codex Space Marines has it worse in ANY fashion than Codex Chaos Space Marines. Its not "whining" its the truth. So while you can get sick of the truth it wont change it. Now with our 6 supplements and forgeworld we are certainly not hurting in power level. But as a Loyalist Marine player you would not need 6 books. You have one.

I do feel for Blood Angels players. I welcome them to the fold.

Table wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Table wrote:

Nvs wrote:
I was trying my best to hold out till I had the book in my hand before joining into any critical discussion of the units, but it seems the rules are pretty much confirmed at this point.

I honestly don't understand how they could botch this release so magnificently. Rubric Marines have been borderline useless since 3rd edition. In 15 years word never reached the developer's ears that the unit simply cost too much? Somehow they got the impression the problem was a lack of options only?

Even if we could get the blessing benefit without actually maxing the formation which in and of itself is completely unreasonable, the ++1 isn't going to magically make the unit worth its cost.

The desperately needed to make the sgt a level 2 psyker and the unit either needed to be 5 points cheaper or the unit needed its additional wound and for the weapon upgrades to be cheaper. I also can't for the life of me figure out why they wanted to give them flamers. Why couldn't they just stick to the standard marine troop options?

The terminators are at least a little better thanks to the better sgt, but they're still terminators which are awful across the board. Especially when you're forced into 5 man units instead of 3.

Well that is the inherent evil of supplements and offshoot codex's ( KDK ), you cant monkey with prices because changing the price in one book upsets the balance of others. Its a horrible system and sadly itll probably bleed into our next codex. I would not expect a point decrease until 40k gets the age of sigmar treatment ( a total system reset). The tax is here to stay. Nothing to do about it except accept it and try to find enjoyment where you can.

The same thing can be said about any number of things. Rapid fire weapons, wargear prices, etc etc.

Edit : I think the big issue here is that people were expecting marines to be elevated to loyalist levels of power. And that was and is never going to happen. Ever. What we do have is a upper tier force ( not the big 5 tier) that may see some tourney play. Demons are just going to get even better than they were before the supplement. For some reaason, GW has it set in stone that CSM cant rise above a certain level of power. Perhaps its fear of another 3.5 codex upsetting loyalist sales? I dont know, but I do know its here to stay.

I'm really sick and tired of hearing this crap about "loyalist levels of power". Even within the Loyalist Marines book and its supplements, the power levels vary wildly.

Unless you really want to try to argue that someone taking a Raven Guard Detachment with no CADs is on equal footing with the other Chapter specific Detachments.

Realistically? The thing that always gets whined and whined about is the Loyalists having Grav and easy access to Librarians but Chaos not having something similar. They now have an entire book which is basically Codex: Chaos Marines as Interpreted by Eldar.

I dont think you want to argue that Codex Space Marines has it worse in ANY fashion than Codex Chaos Space Marines. Its not "whining" its the truth. So while you can get sick of the truth it wont change it. Now with our 6 supplements and forgeworld we are certainly not hurting in power level. But as a Loyalist Marine player you would not need 6 books. You have one.

I do feel for Blood Angels players. I welcome them to the fold.

Raven Guard players, using their unique Detachment presented in "Angels of Death", have it worse than Blood Angels did before their recent update.

The Detachment prevents you from taking any Psykers, any Centurions, and to top it off?
Your "Chapter Tactics" apply only to units with Jump Packs or those units that are on the field and not in a transport/building before the second turn.