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The problem with tzaangors and horrors is with the high high cost of getting the re-rolls. Once you have the minimum units, you're hardpressed to add any options, let alone add chaff units. And yet that would be were they are the most valuable.
I really only see it as an upgrade in case you're playing apocalypse.

I feel that TS Sorcerers and Exalted sorcerers aren’t really that good/efficient compared to standard unmark ones.

1. You are forced to roll on the Tz discipline one time which limits your chance on getting other most desired powers. So a lvl 3 is pretty much a lvl2 in terms of trying to fish for that invis, warp fate and etc.

2. Pretty much can't be psychic focussed on any discipline besides Tz.

3. Exalted sorcerers can only take a disk?? I rather have a bike or jump pack for cheap.

Honestly I rather just run a standard black legion cabal and just attach Ahriman and one-two exalted sorcerers(with relics ofc) to it.

Depends, from what I hear they have a lord statline, and with that daemon weapon they can pack quite a punch. Though other than the extra melee punch, they don't seem to offer a whole lot. I could see myself using one or two in certain lists as beatsticks and to provide that +1 invulnerable. Remember that they also add fearless, as opposed to normal sorcerors.
Perhaps add one with the weapon and pick up prescience for the unit and whatever they get from tzeentch, they get.

If you just need somebody to cast invisibility though, then yea, pretty meh in that role.

 Roknar wrote:
Depends, from what I hear they have a lord statline, and with that daemon weapon they can pack quite a punch. Though other than the extra melee punch, they don't seem to offer a whole lot. I could see myself using one or two in certain lists as beatsticks and to provide that +1 invulnerable. Remember that they also add fearless, as opposed to normal sorcerors.
Perhaps add one with the weapon and pick up prescience for the unit and whatever they get from tzeentch, they get.

If you just need somebody to cast invisibility though, then yea, pretty meh in that role.

Pretty much they are not worth taking in 3s or 4s, whats the point having 3+ WC harness when you don't even have the spells you need.

A 3++ TS deathstar will still get shred to pieces by Warp spiders and scatter bikes if you don't get invis or warp fate up.

Edit: Or worse Iron Priests on Thunder wolves, S10 hammer attacks with hatred against TS, good night sweet baby .

I think the rerolling of 1s on invulns is just expensive gravy. On its own not maxed the cabal look great.

2 sorc, 1 rubric marine unit and 1 occult unit and If I cast a spell my unit can reroll ones until next psychic phase. That is awesome. Combined in a War Coven which allow each psycher to manifest 1 extra spell, reroll perils of warp and warlord traits I think that is great base for a force. Throw in the auxiliary and optional command and your war coven is now open for you to customize to maybe 1500 an up.

I think that if they never put in the Favored of Tzeentch to begin with we would not even notice because of the other cool stuff. rerolling 1s on saves when you all ready can get 3++ constantly is OP IMO and we should pay out the nose.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I see folks bemoaning the cost of the 1kson marines, but with the hordes of tzaangors and pink horrors kicking around I think they'll be able to take the pressure off the expensive SOT and Rubrics who'll shred anything not sporting a 2+ while sorcs use psychic powers to bring down those big nasties. Just my initial thoughts after looking at everything.

I feel like the formations are kinda a raw deal that could have been so much better if you didn't need max units, it just makes it impractical points wise and upsets the balance of units that it seems like 1ksons want to be a TAC. I'm by no means a competitive player but I do see this as a boost in power to csm (I know, that's not a very high bar) but it seems like 1kson are going to favor plans upon plans in a very tzeentchian fashion and will reward the player that knows them in and out.

Who's gona shoot at horrors when they can shoot at 1000 sons early on and than when the threats are down, slowly grind through endless horrors. The game will end turn 2 or 3 in like 5 hours after you've proxied your horrors with all the bottlecaps you were able to find in a mile's radius.

Anyone have a list somewhere of the current known pt costs? Going to try to put together a list =D

 Skerr wrote:
I think the rerolling of 1s on invulns is just expensive gravy. On its own not maxed the cabal look great.

2 sorc, 1 rubric marine unit and 1 occult unit and If I cast a spell my unit can reroll ones until next psychic phase. That is awesome. Combined in a War Coven which allow each psycher to manifest 1 extra spell, reroll perils of warp and warlord traits I think that is great base for a force. Throw in the auxiliary and optional command and your war coven is now open for you to customize to maybe 1500 an up.

I think that if they never put in the Favored of Tzeentch to begin with we would not even notice because of the other cool stuff. rerolling 1s on saves when you all ready can get 3++ constantly is OP IMO and we should pay out the nose.

When you find yourself removing an entire 150 point squad when 1 squad of of Fire Warriors opens fire with an Ethereal nearby you will be thinking twice. Not to mention if your firing first you wont even wipe a full squad but end up leaving 5ish guys.

Math! TSons have a 3+ Armour, or 3+ Invuln. Doesn't matter, Pulse Rifles are AP5.

A 150 point squad is 5 men, for 5 wounds. Times 3 for a 3+ save, for 15. Wounding on 3s, so times 1.5, for 22.5. Hitting on 4s, so double it for 45. That is 15 Warriors rapid-firing with the Ethereal bonus, so slightly more than a full squad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Math! TSons have a 3+ Armour, or 3+ Invuln. Doesn't matter, Pulse Rifles are AP5.

A 150 point squad is 5 men, for 5 wounds. Times 3 for a 3+ save, for 15. Wounding on 3s, so times 1.5, for 22.5. Hitting on 4s, so double it for 45. That is 15 Warriors rapid-firing with the Ethereal bonus, so slightly more than a full squad.

You're not taking into account marker lights which i forgot to mention.

Oh FFS.

I guess you'll have to figure out a different strategy than walking into the enemy's guns with your invincible units.

This is an army that revolves around successful psychic phases. Why not figure out what might work against Tau?

Yeah, but that's yet more points. A squad of 12 Fire Warriors (which is, I think, around 100 points) within 15" and undamaged, an Ethereal (another 50 or so points) AND Markerlights (let's assume from Drones, since they're superior to Pathfinders, so that's another 28 points) is sitting higher than the cost of your TSons.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Oh FFS.

I guess you'll have to figure out a different strategy than walking into the enemy's guns with your invincible units.

The irony of you calling the unit invincible when pointing out that there not invincible.

It was sarcasm, I believe.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, but that's yet more points. A squad of 12 Fire Warriors (which is, I think, around 100 points) within 15" and undamaged, an Ethereal (another 50 or so points) AND Markerlights (let's assume from Drones, since they're superior to Pathfinders, so that's another 28 points) is sitting higher than the cost of your TSons.

Okay a 12 man squad of Fire Warriors and 1 Fireblade 168 points will get 24 shots per turn at max range, 2 turns the unit is down and you will have lost maybe 2, and that's without any ML support.

24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

 JNAProductions wrote:
24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

2.33*2= 4.66 which means out of 10 attempts they will kill the entire unit 6-7 times.

Yeah with your 4 shots 3 hits 2 wounds 1 loss you lose 46 points he loses 9 points.

How's the psychic phase work out for those Fire Warriors + Ethereal?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

2.33*2= 4.66 which means out of 10 attempts they will kill the entire unit 6-7 times.

Yeah with your 4 shots 3 hits 2 wounds 1 loss you lose 46 points he loses 9 points.

You're missing the Fire Blade's shots: 2 shots, 10/6 hit, 20/18 wounds, 10/27 unsaved wounds.

That makes it over 5 wounds in 2 rounds, I believe.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How's the psychic phase work out for those Fire Warriors + Ethereal?

IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

Count how many shots you need to kill the pink horrors.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

Why not?

1) I advance in the movement phase.
2) I kill some dudes with Witchfires.
3) I run out of LOS instead of shooting.

If you are really lucky, you can snipe out the Ethereal with Devolution.

If you have nothing special, you can try your luck with Tzeentch's Firestorm.

Why are you insisting on taking a 3+ psychic unit with a great Invul directly against massed AP- shooting? This is literally the worst possible use of this unit!

If getting shot at is your jam, you should be using Decurion Warriors or Horrors.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

1) I advance in the movement phase.
2) I kill some dudes with Witchfires.
3) I run out of LOS instead of shooting.

"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you are really lucky, you can snipe out the Ethereal with Devolution.

If you're relying on luck to win a shoot out you're going to lose.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you have nothing special, you can try your luck with Tzeentch's Firestorm.

Same as above. Keep in mind you have to put the Sorcerer at the very front to do that which means 4+ look out sirs or die, you will fail sooner or later and lose the sorc.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why are you insisting you take 3+ psychic unit with a great Invul directly against massed AP- shooting? This is literally the worst possible use of this unit

It's not that I am insisting on doing that its that the opponent will insist on making it happen, and with so few units on the board I'm not going to be able to stop that from happening.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If getting shot at is your jam, you should be using Decurion Warriors or Horrors.

I don't get to choose who the enemy shoots at he does.

You do get to choose what you bring, and what tactics you use. You should have a mix of TSons and, say, Tzangors. Send the Tzangors after the little gribblies, and use your TSons as hammers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do get to choose what you bring, and what tactics you use. You should have a mix of TSons and, say, Tzangors. Send the Tzangors after the little gribblies, and use your TSons as hammers.

That would be ideal. Problem is if you take all the units to get the rerollable 1s on saves you have like 350 points left which is not enough to do anything. Which is why I am considering dropping 2 units of OST which will free up 500 points.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Hmm... what if we put them in a Rhino?

Can we shoot a witchfire and then scram?

In fact, can't we actually drive them into their target with a bunch of S4 AP4 Flamers?

Or just shoot them to death with a hijacked Stormsurge?

Point is, you are smart enough to know trying to overmatch markerlight, Ethereal supported Tau in the shooting phase is probably a losing battle. So why not come at the problem from a different direction? Can we build a list to shift our offense into the psychic phase?

So what are the actual advantages of taking scarab occult terminators over normal' thousand sons' Mark of tzeemtch terminatots?
You can buy a sorcerer separately(could even be unmarked).
You can add an icon or a Lord if you want fearless.
You lose the ap3 bolters but gain access to chainfists which in my mind is essential for a terminator unit.
Then make them jump infantry and off you go.

Probably formation bonuses to make them very durable. regular termies will end quickly without rerolls.

True , but those rerolls are almost ludicrously difficult to get at a sensible points level. Same thing can be achieved through psychic powers(although far from guaranteed.. losing a power to tzeentch is so annoying)

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Hmm... what if we put them in a Rhino?

Can we shoot a witchfire and then scram?

In fact, can't we actually drive them into their target with a bunch of S4 AP4 Flamers?

Or just shoot them to death with a hijacked Stormsurge?

Point is, you are smart enough to know trying to overmatch markerlight, Ethereal supported Tau in the shooting phase is probably a losing battle. So why not come at the problem from a different direction? Can we build a list to shift our offense into the psychic phase?

What you would be better off doing is putting them in a rhino, move forward 6 disembark 6, mind bullets, actual bullets, flatout rhino to block LOS. You can take out quite a few squads that way just have to do a lot of thinking ahead.

The flamers might work but will be a massive cost increase.