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Also, no one has really mentioned it but there really isn't too much taxing in the detachment If you take the War Cabal and use, let's say a Heldrake as an Auxillary. Infact, I think this is the first CSM detachment (from any book) to not tax Heldrakes at all, which is nice.

 buddha wrote:
What are people's thoughts on what maximizing means for the purposes of the blessings of tzeentch rule? That is, do I just need to take the max number of units or max number of units + max sizes for those units?

So to get the blessing rule for say the war coven what does that look like model wise?

you have to max number of units.

A war coven? 10 Sorcerers min at 600 points.


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 Bach wrote:
Also, no one has really mentioned it but there really isn't too much taxing in the detachment If you take the War Cabal and use, let's say a Heldrake as an Auxillary. Infact, I think this is the first CSM detachment (from any book) to not tax Heldrakes at all, which is nice.

That's because the units themselves are a tax.

You can just take two helldrakes as a formation, why worry.



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People have been pretty quiet about the daemon formations, but from whats been said they look pretty Damn awesome


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Just realised they've completely and utterly failed to allow you to make a legion of rubricae in this detachment, you need 3 tax units for every 3 rubrics. Gah.

Nvm that, there is only a single formation for actual rubricae lol. Looking at the aux and command formations, it's like all exalted sorcerers or daemon princes XD.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You can just take two helldrakes as a formation, why worry.



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People have been pretty quiet about the daemon formations, but from whats been said they look pretty Damn awesome


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Just realised they've completely and utterly failed to allow you to make a legion of rubricae in this detachment, you need 3 tax units for every 3 rubrics. Gah.

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.


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 Roknar wrote:
Nvm that, there is only a single formation for actual rubricae lol. Looking at the aux and command formations, it's like all exalted sorcerers or daemon princes XD.

LOL but the SOT have 2 both of which are core choices. Im just hoping that Traitors Legions has 1 or 2 more formations that are more Thousand Sons and less everything else.

Some incorrect information in here. Blessing of Tzeentch is universal to all detachments that are classified as TS.



This means it can be easily applied to CAD units. For example:

Tzeentch-marked CSM with Warp Fate will be rerolling a 3+/5++.
Marked Bikers with Shrouded have a 5++ in case of Ignores Cover.
Any unit with the Daemon USR under a blessing will improve to a 3++.
TK dome gives Mark/VotLW units a 3++ against shooting.
Aura/Mark/VotLW now compare favourably against a Sigil.

As far as Rubricae themselves go, they are pretty easy to access in a CAD as they're troops. Likewise with Tzaangors. So it's probably worthwhile weighing CAD flexibility and Obsec against the formations.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

You can make a nice CAD with normal CSM classified as Thousand Sons.

Like:

1 Socerer, MoT, Votlw, Jumpinfantary artifact, Spellfamiliar, ML3 maybe Terminator amour or give him a Aura for a 3++ if you get a blessing on him

Than take 3-9 Terminators with Combiweapons and mixed cc weapons with MoT, Votlw and cast a blessing on them for a sweet 3++

As tax you take 2x10 Cultists with MoT (or one unit for an allied detachment)

It's cheap, packs a lot of punch and special weapons in a Unit of Terminators with Stormshield equivalents and they move 12" per turn.

You can combine this with a lot of other good things and i think that the normal csm terminators are not worse than the new rubric terminators.

 Bach wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

Your comparing A generic unit type to a specific unit type. To me Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and Cult troops are all variations of CSM. TS are a subset of CSM, if there was 1 Formation that was mostly TS and some Tzzangors, and Sorcerers that would be fine, but when you have 1 Core that is half TS half SOT and another core that is all SOT, and not a single Aux choice with any TS, then your not doing a TS Formations your doing SOT Formations.


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 Darksider wrote:
You can make a nice CAD with normal CSM classified as Thousand Sons.

Like:

1 Socerer, MoT, Votlw, Jumpinfantary artifact, Spellfamiliar, ML3 maybe Terminator amour or give him a Aura for a 3++ if you get a blessing on him

Than take 3-9 Terminators with Combiweapons and mixed cc weapons with MoT, Votlw and cast a blessing on them for a sweet 3++

As tax you take 2x10 Cultists with MoT (or one unit for an allied detachment)

It's cheap, packs a lot of punch and special weapons in a Unit of Terminators with Stormshield equivalents and they move 12" per turn.

You can combine this with a lot of other good things and i think that the normal csm terminators are not worse than the new rubric terminators.

What I will probably end up doing is going 2 unist of TS with 3 units of Tzaangors since it will keep the cost down and still give me 5 Ob. Sec. units.

Does Chaos Knight of Tzeentch get a 2++ against shooting and a 3++ against melee if a cursed earth is cast? Yippee!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Your comparing A generic unit type to a specific unit type. To me Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and Cult troops are all variations of CSM. TS are a subset of CSM, if there was 1 Formation that was mostly TS and some Tzzangors, and Sorcerers that would be fine, but when you have 1 Core that is half TS half SOT and another core that is all SOT, and not a single Aux choice with any TS, then your not doing a TS Formations your doing SOT Formations.

A Space Marine squad is a specific type of unit (pg 36 & pg 95 from CSM codex) , just like Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and yes, Thousand Sons are a specific unit in the CSM codex (pg 45 and pg. 98).

From what I'm understanding from you is that you're not crazy about terminators, much less terminators that will cost 250 points per squad. I'm not either but I will reserve judgement until I can play them. But the take away from Wrath of Magnus is that the Thousand Sons theme goes across several units now and and not just limited to the original 4++, can't run, chaos space marine unit with the foot slogging sorceror. All I'm saying is don't count out the SOT just yet, they may be quite fun if using some of the new stuff like the jump pack artifact.

If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

peirceg wrote:
Does Chaos Knight of Tzeentch get a 2++ against shooting and a 3++ against melee if a cursed earth is cast? Yippee!

Vehicles can't benefit from the improved invulnerable from being in a TSons detachment by virtue of not having the Veterans of the Long War special rule.

 Bach wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

Agreed, 1k sons is really about sorcerers.


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Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

I would like to know this also.

Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

So it would seem. You couldn't take the maelstrom of gore, for example, because it violates the no marks but tzeentch rule but chaos warband to terminator annihilation force all seem eligible.

As above I think unless you plan to go heavy psyker the traitors hate formations seem the better bet. But if you want to go psyker heavy, damn they've made it appealing.

There is a thread for that in YMDC. Although it's a little speculative at the moment.

 buddha wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

So it would seem. You couldn't take the maelstrom of gore, for example, because it violates the no marks but tzeentch rule but chaos warband to terminator annihilation force all seem eligible.

As above I think unless you plan to go heavy psyker the traitors hate formations seem the better bet. But if you want to go psyker heavy, damn they've made it appealing.

You wanted to run thousand son berserkers? Dust for the dust god!

I mean, there /Are/ thousand sons black legion. It's not a fluff abomination to have a thousand sons Cylopea cabal.
But I feel tolerating mixing supplements is a dark path.

I'm thinking Fateweaver might help offset some of the TS randomness.

Table Results - Modifying first D6

Table Results - Modifying second D6
.

Analysis of the Boon table:

Observations :

- Spawnhood risk is reduced to 0.9% (from 5.6%).
- Dark Apotheosis risk is decreased to 0.9%. Or increased to 12.1%.
- Boon of Mutation will improve any DP to a 4++ (Blessing of Tzeentch). If so, it's always worthwhile.
- Fateweaver has some solid psychic shooting, including an AP1 D attack.
- You could also use his reroll to help fish on the BRB using the Scrolls of Magnus.

I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

You trade higher toughness for a better Invul (better versus Grav, weaker versus Scatpacks).

You trade the Archon + Webway Portal ally combo for "movement" Psyker powers (Ghoststorm looks potentially hilarious with them).

You trade the mini-d in exchange for being cheaper by a decent amount of points.

There is one thing though that looks potentially entertaining with them however. If Warpflamers are treated as Flamer Weapons for as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook (the way Skorchas, the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, etc, are), that means you can hook them up to a Promethium Fuel Relay.

Think about that for a moment.

Thousand Sons are S&P and thus can move-and-fire Heavy Weapons. The Promethium Relay/Fuel Tanks from a Munitorium Armored Crate allow any non-vehicle Flamer Weapon within 2" of it to become a Heavy Torrent weapon.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this looks like Chaos got Heldrake infantry.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Ah. Well, that idea burned out quickly.

Guess they're still a mini-Dark Reaper escort for their Sorcerer then. Bleh.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Wait what? We got ap3 bolters standard but have to pay for ap4 flamers?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Ah. Well, that idea burned out quickly.

Guess they're still a mini-Dark Reaper escort for their Sorcerer then. Bleh.

Yes, Rubrics are just too expensive to really justify, beyond the required unit in the War Cabal. I am pretty surprised that GW managed to miss this somehow, they should easily have been about 5 PPM less.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Wait what? We got ap3 bolters standard but have to pay for ap4 flamers?

Yup, not sure who took the picture but BOLS had some pictures from the armory here. I think Aspiring Sorcerers have the option of buying the Warpflame Pistol if you really want another way to give your opponent Feel No Pain.

It's definitely a strange decision by GW.

Courtesy of Cephalobeard, here's the datasheet for Exalted Sorcerers. Since they have access to Chaos Rewards, you can be rocking a 3+ rerollable with a Spell Familiar.


Tzaangor datasheet. They're obviously the "Troops" board control unit. Given their cost, Rubricae really need to be seen as an Elite who aren't meant to soak up fire.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Courtesy of Cephalobeard, here's the datasheet for Exalted Sorcerers. Since they have access to Chaos Rewards, you can be rocking a 3+ rerollable with a Spell Familiar.

Spoiler:

Tzaangor datasheet. They're obviously the "Troops" board control unit. Given their cost, Rubricae really need to be seen as an Elite who aren't meant to soak up fire.

Spoiler:

Yes but you're going to paying almost 800 points for a minimum War Coven that have the new options.

Wow, a lot of swings and misses.

So the Lord of the Silver Tower ability mentions a beam coming from above...but it's not a Barrage. Fail. Can't take Sanctic, can't take Terminator Armor or a regular Bike, or a Combi-weapon to take advantage of superior BS, and is stuck with a Staff (can't take a Force Axe). Fail.

Tzaangors reroll to-hit **models** equipped with Relics. Since most of those models hide in a unit, and the ability doesn't work like Preferred Enemy (character) post-FAQ, the only way for it to work would be against characters in challenges (you're going to die) or against "solo" characters that are so powerful that they don't care that you reroll to-hit. Fail.

The Run&Charge formation is cute for them, though it seems more like it's for running 6 solo spawn or something like that.

It's not that difficult GW! People don't want to buy boring mono-pose grunts that don't get any cool options or modelling opportunities in-game. I thought you had figured that out with Genestealer Cults!

Okay what about something like this - with all mastery level upgrades and otherwise nothing else.

A War Cabal, A Tzaangor Warherd, a War Coven and then a Heldrake (because why not).

Exalted Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Rubrics
SOT
SOT
Sorcerer
3 units of Tzaangors
Heldrake
Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Sorcerer

53 models, 65 wounds, 20 ML and a handful of points left for upgrades (I think that's 1815 - but not everything has been revealed yet).

Take psychic shriek on everyone (unless there is a better option based on your opponent) and you only need to roll well a couple of times to eat up elite units even with solid invulnerable saves. There are some good options in the Tzeentch discipline as well (although also some which won't help very much).

Its possible you want to ditch the coven, put two sorcerers into the War Cabal and then get another Heldrake at the cost of 4 ML.

You could also ditch the second SOT (2 ML) for a Land Raider (although I feel Land Raiders very rarely do enough damage to justify their cost although this might be a holdover from Dark Eldar thinking.) They are sort of hard to kill - but most people will pack something (grav, haywire, melta, just regular big guns etc) and you just give them something to shoot at. SOT are not an assault unit and its not immediately obvious what advantage you get from jumping into the teeth of the enemy.

So Exalted Sorcerors lose some original Chaos HQ options and force weapons but gain the ability to be artillery once per game? It looks like with available upgrades, they'll be at least 215 pts without chaos rewards or artifacts. For that kind of point cost, I might as well auto take Ahriman w/disc and get Master of Deception.

ALSO Exalted Sorcerors only get Aura of Dark glory, which, when added with Mark of Tzeentch, only gives a 4++. Sigil of Corruption is not currently a chaos reward or an artifact so these guys can't get a 3++ like a basic Tzeentch Sorceror can! Clearly Exalted Sorceors are not meant to get into the thick of things. I guess I'll have to tank some shots with the vanilla Tzeentch Sorceror