Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So according to the pictures of the data sheets we saw, a minimum unit of Scarabs can take both an Assault Cannon and ML at the same time.

So that just means we need an HQ with the Jump Pack relic to throw them out into the thick of it. I'm planning on fiddling with this on top of my Infiltrating Zombie list...

 Sasori wrote:
Yes, Rubrics are just too expensive to really justify, beyond the required unit in the War Cabal. I am pretty surprised that GW managed to miss this somehow, they should easily have been about 5 PPM less.

CSM pay a premium for AP3. In GW Studioland nothing is more terrifying than a CSM who denies a SM his armor save.

From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

145 points gets an unmarked Bikesorcerer with ML 3 and Familiar. 235 gets Ahriman, which is equivalent to paying 50 for 2 extra MLs, and 25 for Master of Ambush and the Black Staff.

Incidentally, I can see Biomancy Ahriman being more of a thing. If he gets Iron Arm, he can cast it on himself to be a S9 T8 Smash Jetbike, with a 3++. I don't know about you but there's something a little scary about that.

That said though, things are looking pretty underwhelming otherwise.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

145 points gets an unmarked Bikesorcerer with ML 3 and Familiar. 235 gets Ahriman, which is equivalent to paying 50 for 2 extra MLs, and 25 for Master of Ambush and the Black Staff.

Incidentally, I can see Biomancy Ahriman being more of a thing. If he gets Iron Arm, he can cast it on himself to be a S9 T8 Smash Jetbike, with a 3++. I don't know about you but there's something a little scary about that.

That said though, things are looking pretty underwhelming otherwise.

I'd say the extra attack, WS, and wound are absolutely worth it. They are at almost Lord levels of attacking at that point. The forced roll on the table sucks, but the table is less bad than before so there ya go.

Advantages and disadvantages I guess...

You're also getting access to Divination.

Apparently some people can't connect the dots too well.

Divination is nice, but if I really wanted it, I'd ally in a Herald and call it a day.

For a pure 1k-sons army, chances are you're taking the Coven anyway. You're getting the ability to reroll 1s to-hit after Manifesting. I suppose if you were feeling cheeky you could try to fish for Precognition, hope you Perils, and use the "reroll Perils" ability to attempt to fish for a 6...but otherwise, you don't get much from Prescience, and Geomortis has a better version of Perfect Timing anyway. Screen's Gaze could be useful...if Thousand Sons were a reserves army, but most of their stuff is meant to start on-table, and unfortunately Scarab Terminators have minimum unit sizes of 5.

I could see him being useful if you were trying to make a Deathstar out of other units (a Spawnstar with him could be hilarious) but he's not offering enough for the extra premium you pay.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

Well technically it's a 40 point difference; You didn't add VotLW on the regular Sorcerer, so he'd be 120 points and not 115. Exalted Sorcerers are also Fearless, which can be quite handy if he joins a non-fearless unit or runs around on his own.

I'd say +1 BS, +1W, +1I, +1A, Inferno Bolts, Coruscating Beam, access to more disciplines and Fearless is worth 40 points.

I think the points are alright, for one. The fact ahrimans formation needs 3 is just crushing. I don't think the points can be justified even at the minimum level.

What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

Honestly, it looks like I'll be running a fluffy army with most of the units of the new release. If I want a competitive army it looks like a lot of horrors!

I think the TS are shaping up to be the chaos version of GKs. That is, If you are not playing them for psyker and high warpcharge then it's probably not going to work well. Direct combat army these guys are not.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

Well technically it's a 40 point difference; You didn't add VotLW on the regular Sorcerer, so he'd be 120 points and not 115. Exalted Sorcerers are also Fearless, which can be quite handy if he joins a non-fearless unit or runs around on his own.

I'd say +1 BS, +1W, +1I, +1A, Inferno Bolts, Coruscating Beam, access to more disciplines and Fearless is worth 40 points.

Sorcerers are usually best-joined to Spawn or Daemonkin Hounds, both which are Fearless anyway. A Tzeentch Detachment is mostly fearless otherwise anyway, barring if you take any Tzaangors, so that's also mostly points for something you don't get to use anyway.

If you're running a Tzeentch Detachment, the Sorcerers have to take VoTLW but get it for free anyway so it's still 45 points.

Inferno Bolts don't really matter since it's...one Bolt Pistol shot. Chances are your Psyker wants to Turbo after casting in most cases anyway. The Coruscating Beam is a one-shot small blast, that scatters, that doesn't ignore cover, that doesn't have Barrage, that doesn't ID T5...it's costed like a Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment while being conceivably worse in almost every way.

Another thing I didn't even mention is that the "equivalent Wargear" wasn't a fair comparison since for 10 points more, the Sorcerer can skip taking the Aura altogether and slap on some Terminator Armor instead (or get it for free in a Terminator Annihilation Force...).

 Roknar wrote:
What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

It's a very powerful formation, but you are looking at pretty much 1,000 points for it, without any serious upgrades. It's very hardy, but I don't believe it has the damage output to justify the points sink.

 Roknar wrote:
What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

It seems like a lot of terminators, is that 750 points base just for them? Assuming ML 3 and rolling twice on the Heretech table, you have a 36% chance for Fleshmetal. You have a 100% chance for Prescience from Divination if taking an Exalted Sorcerer. If trying to buff units, there is no contest there, the offensive choice is easier to get and will be generally more useful. If taking a regular sorceror, and assuming ML 3, I would likely take Psychic Shriek, and maybe take a random roll off another table for lulz.

Well getting a blessing cast on them isn't an issue since they come with a squad leader with force by default. You don't need an exalted sorcerer either. They can pick up prescience on their own.
They seem like a pretty solid choice. The problem is with the formation. You need 3 + HQ.
That's 750 + at least 60. But I doubt many people would do that. They only have powerswords and Ap3 twin bolters in that form, so they can't really do a whole lot that you couldn't also do with rubricae.
So you go and upgrade the termies with the heavy weapons, which are pretty good, but then you're approaching some 900 points already. So easily half your army is spent on three min sized scarab occult units.
And then you're still footslogging them. It doesn't really seem worth the investment for the formation. Nevermind the re-rollable saves BS.

I'd rather just take one unit with build in prescience and then round out the rest of my list as needed. Plus that one roll on divination might get them ignore cover too, making that ap3 count. Hell even foreboding isn't bad with ap3 bolters plus the assault cannon thingie.

Ok cool, the Scarab Termi Sorceror seems a lot like a regular ML 2, 2 wound sorceror packaged into the unit. I didn't catch that the first time. If Prescience can be spammed by these guys then you can go looking for other powers with your stand a lone sorcs. Do we know if Scarab sorcs can take chaos rewards or artifacts?

They can get a power sword or gift of mutation...period lol. Oddly enough that is exchanging his combi bolter for a powersword, they still have the force stave. I wouldn't say you can spam anyhting with these. They have MoT so must roll on the tzeentch table once. Aka, they don't automatically get prescience, you just get to option to switch to it every time.

Although, wasn't that faqed? I thought you can get the normal primaris as well as the chaos primaris when you roll on one non god discipline.

That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.

I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

The TL is more for the ML, Cannon, and Flamer than anything.

So I did a little number crunching.

In terms of pure durability, here are the results against 200x S6 attacks. Decurion Warriors are included as a benchmark.

1st - Tzaangors with Forewarning (3++, 259pts lost)
2nd - Rubrics with Warp Fate (rerollable 3++, 284pts lost)
3rd - Decurion Warriors (4+/4+++, 361pts lost)
4th - S/O Terminators with Endurance (2+/4+++, 370pts lost)

 Bach wrote:
I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

You mean terminators and not marines, right?

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Bach wrote:
I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

You mean terminators and not marines, right?

I hope he does cause if not that changes everything. Only having to fish for ignores cover would be amazing.

It would make me "dust" off my old rubrics to run along aside the new ones as well if their shooting becomes that much more reliable. They're still pricey, but I'd be able to bite those bullets more easily to run lots of units of them. Feel like that can't be the case though.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
It would make me "dust" off my old rubrics to run along aside the new ones as well if their shooting becomes that much more reliable. They're still pricey, but I'd be able to bite those bullets more easily to run lots of units of them. Feel like that can't be the case though.

Same here since one of the formations allows you to "reroll 1s for shooting" makes no sense to give them TL and then give them a bonus that is half as good.

Pretty sure he meant Terminators.

Modelwise, the Occult Terminators are clearly wearing Combibolters, and the Rubrics are wearing a mixture of Bolters and Warpflamers(?), not Combibolters.

Yes, sorry meant the terminators. But still good, however. I'm still trying to get past the initial sticker shock of the termis knowing that there's sorceror bundled in there is looking like a HQ level unit.

Here's the other Formations compatible with TS in the new codex supplement.

- Chaos Warband (everything Obsec, roll 2x on Boon table and apply either or both)
- The Lost and the Damned (Apostle has 6" Zealot bubble to formation, destroyed Cultist units enter Reserves on a 4+)
- Helforged Warpack (If Warpsmith alive, Formation has unlimited Daemonforge. One Daemon Engine has 4++ and becomes a character)
- Heldrake Terror Pack (LD debuff increases for # of Heldrakes in 12" proximity, Vector Strike bonuses against Pinned/Falling Back/GTG units)
- Cult of Destruction (Oblits/Mutas can be conferred attack bonuses by Warpsmith)
- Fist of the Gods (6+ Invul and bonus to Repair rolls)
- Raptor Talon (Charge from DS, -2LD if charged by multiple units)
- Terminator Annihilation Force (Hatred and can conduct a shooting attack directly after DS)
- Favoured of Chaos (Possessed within 12" of DP get all 3x Mutations)

 Bach wrote:
Yes, sorry meant the terminators. But still good, however. I'm still trying to get past the initial sticker shock of the termis knowing that there's sorceror bundled in there is looking like a HQ level unit.

Really? that's the first thing I noticed about them.

Makes me think that's why people underestimate them.


Scarabs in a filled formation will be nasty as hell. if you can pull one off.


Makes me think 1ksons was never intended for a 1500-1850 game. where they shine is the 2000-2500 games, where you can get a full coven, some helpful auxiliary choice and power it up with a horror battery (who also claim home objectives pretty darn well)

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's the other Formations compatible with TS in the new codex supplement.

- Chaos Warband (everything Obsec, roll 2x on Boon table and apply either or both)
- The Lost and the Damned (Apostle has 6" Zealot bubble to formation, destroyed Cultist units enter Reserves on a 4+)
- Helforged Warpack (If Warpsmith alive, Formation has unlimited Daemonforge. One Daemon Engine has 4++ and becomes a character)
- Heldrake Terror Pack (LD debuff increases for # of Heldrakes in 12" proximity, Vector Strike bonuses against Pinned/Falling Back/GTG units)
- Cult of Destruction (Oblits/Mutas can be conferred attack bonuses by Warpsmith)
- Fist of the Gods (6+ Invul and bonus to Repair rolls)
- Raptor Talon (Charge from DS, -2LD if charged by multiple units)
- Terminator Annihilation Force (Hatred and can conduct a shooting attack directly after DS)
- Favoured of Chaos (Possessed within 12" of DP get all 3x Mutations)

That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.