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Curse of the wolfen as far as I know has the description on one daemon formation and the new Tzeentchian warlord trait table.

I would disagree about WoM not being competitive. Rubrics certainly won't be, but I suspect a Pandaemoniad detachment with a Rehati War Sect will prove to be a powerhouse. Take this list for instance:

Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's Host
The blue scribes
3 x 11 blue horrors

Heralds anarchic
Herald, ML1, warlord
Herald, ML1, paradox artifact
Herald, ML1

WoM formation: Rehati war sect

Magnus the Red
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar


That's almost 2k points. The list produces 26 warp charges, has magnus and his flying circus. Circus casts on a 3+ with rerolls. Daemons have 4++ and I also get access to the new warpstorm table. The horrors cap the backfield objectives and feed warp charges to the flying circus, the Circus puts the dice to good use.

And for people that have been missing this part: Magnus knows TWO str D powers, not just one.

So the Favoured of Tzeentch bonus in the War Cabal is cruel joke or tease from GW's part right?

You can fit it in at 2000 pts if you run everything almost completely naked (not advisable), and even at 2500 pts it just looks...meh.

I made this list for "fun", but I only ended up depressed;

War Cabal;

Ahriman

Sorcerer /w MoT, +2 ML, Aura of Dark Glory.
Sorcerer /w MoT, +2 ML, Aura of Dark Glory.
Sorcerer /w MoT, +2 ML, Aura of Dark Glory.

5x Rubric Marines + Rhino.
5x Rubric Marines + Rhino.
5x Rubric Marines + Rhino.

5x Scarab Occult Terminators /w Soulreaper Cannon and Helfyre Missile Rack.
5x Scarab Occult Terminators /w Soulreaper Cannon and Helfyre Missile Rack.
5x Scarab Occult Terminators /w Soulreaper Cannon and Helfyre Missile Rack.

Auxilliaries;

1x Forgefiend /w Hades Autocannons.
1x Helbrute /w Multimelta.
1x Chaos Vindicator.

2500 pts on the nose.
34 infantry models
6 vehicles.
22 ML's (the only remotely impressive thing in the list.)

Now honestly, I'm not a competetive player, and this list can probably be tweaked abit, but even I enjoy winning once and awhile, and quite frankly, I cant see myself winning against any other (normal) 2500 pts list with this.

With that said, I'll probably field a War Cabal from time to time, but only for Oracular Guidance and so I can field a War Coven.

So what are the thoughts of a Exalted/Sorc heavy list? Too prone to sniping? Or would the potential of a psychic tool box be worth the risk? I'm thinking a combo of the War cabal and coven, utilising Ahriman, 1-2 squads of rubrics, a squad of Termies and 4-5 Sorcs. Twos sorcs would be with the rubrics and termies, while the others zooming around on discs or behind cover slinging spells. I'm also debating on if I should get a second box of rubrics or go with more Exalted sorcs.

CaptainSomas wrote:
So what are the thoughts of a Exalted/Sorc heavy list? Too prone to sniping? Or would the potential of a psychic tool box be worth the risk? I'm thinking a combo of the War cabal and coven, utilising Ahriman, 1-2 squads of rubrics, a squad of Termies and 4-5 Sorcs. Twos sorcs would be with the rubrics and termies, while the others zooming around on discs or behind cover slinging spells. I'm also debating on if I should get a second box of rubrics or go with more Exalted sorcs.

Exalted all the way. I already had 3 full squad of rubrics before the book, and I'm leaving all of them on the shelf. I am actually building a list with Ahriman's exiles all on discs flying as one unit. Screw the rubrics. Get some blue horrors instead. 5 pts per model with 4++. 55 pts for 2 warp charges and 11 wounds that split upon dying. Put me in a dress and call me Sally. And exalted sorcerers of course. They are such beasts! For 60 pts more than a fully dressed sorcerer you get +1 to BS, ini, attacks and wounds, fearless, inferno bolts, access to divination and telekinesis and the Lord of the silver tower (for some reason I always picture Rainbow singing "I'm the loooord of the siiilver toweeeer"). Can't get a sweeter deal than this.

Noctem wrote:
Why would you need Curse of the Wulfen? I got WoM and one of each of the new boxes (except I got two Rubric boxes)! I know Thousand Sons will probably not be super competitive so I'm going to stay fluffy with it. My competitive army will probably stay Tau.

Well I pm'ed veteran Noob who said Wulfen had some additional rules if I wanted to run demons also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was planning on just buying traitor legions and was not sure what I was missing by not buying wrath of magnus except the fluff book and laser focus on Tzeentch.

Concerned I might have buyers remorse getting both.

Cursed of the Wulfen contains all the Daemon formations, psychic powers, artifacts and a detachment. If you are playing Daemons you really need to get this book.

Wrath of Magnus has rules for the new horrors, some daemon formations and Magnus himself which TL doesn't have.

Wow no Magnus in Traitor's? Good to know.

from GW's site:
Description
The Traitor Legions of the Chaos Space Marines have waged terrible wars of hate and vengeance upon the Imperium of Mankind for ten thousand years. From the Daemon worlds of the Eye of Terror, they plot the destruction of the empire they once helped to build. They have neither forgotten nor forgiven the loyalists, nor the False Emperor whom they serve. These warriors will not rest until the galaxy is burning, and the Emperor’s putrid carcass is cast down from the Golden Throne into the filth where it belongs.

Codex Supplement: Traitor Legions is a 136-page, full-colour softback supplement to Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It contains a wealth of additional content and rules that any Chaos Space Marines army can use, with a huge array of rules for all nine of the Traitor Legions.

In The Book

- Datasheets for the following models:
- Kharn the Betrayer
- Ahriman
- Exalted Sorcerer
- Tzaangors
- Rubric Marines
- Scarab Occult Terminators
- Khorne Lord of Skulls
- Magnus the Red

Magnus is in there alright

Strange, I thought they were going to leave him out to give people a reason to buy WoM, I will never understand GW's marketing decisions.

So basically just missing demon formations and new horror rule. Not sure I want the book just for the horrors. Does wom also have the fateweaver/ LoC formation?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Curse of the wolfen as far as I know has the description on one daemon formation and the new Tzeentchian warlord trait table.

I would disagree about WoM not being competitive. Rubrics certainly won't be, but I suspect a Pandaemoniad detachment with a Rehati War Sect will prove to be a powerhouse. Take this list for instance:

Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's Host
The blue scribes
3 x 11 blue horrors

Heralds anarchic
Herald, ML1, warlord
Herald, ML1, paradox artifact
Herald, ML1

WoM formation: Rehati war sect

Magnus the Red
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar


That's almost 2k points. The list produces 26 warp charges, has magnus and his flying circus. Circus casts on a 3+ with rerolls. Daemons have 4++ and I also get access to the new warpstorm table. The horrors cap the backfield objectives and feed warp charges to the flying circus, the Circus puts the dice to good use.

And for people that have been missing this part: Magnus knows TWO str D powers, not just one.

I never said WoM wasn't competitive, just Thousand Sons =P

Skerr, Wrath of Magnus has the Fateweaver+Lord of Change formation, yes. One thing I didn't see mentioned in the above exchanges, Curse of the Wulfen has the Change Discipline, which Wrath of Magnus does not. So without it or a sneak peak pic from google or whatever, any Tzeentch daemons will be at a bit of a disadvantage, just rolling on the original D3 table.

Thanks for tips guys.

CaptainSomas wrote:
So what are the thoughts of a Exalted/Sorc heavy list?

You probably want layered defensive buffs on a cheap, fast T4 unit. This is basically Cabal + Flesh Hounds, but Grimoire will let you use infantry models.

Hound/Cabal Star - 1015pts

KDK Herald, Locus of Wrath
Sorcerer, L3, spell familiar, bike, Black Mace
Sorcerer, L3, spell familiar, bike, force axe
Sorcerer, L3, spell familiar, bike, force stave
Sorcerer, L3, spell familiar, JP, force stave
15x Flesh Hounds

Tzangoor/Exiles Star - 1110pts

Ahriman, ML4, Disc
Exalted Sorc, ML3, Familiar, Grimoire
Exalted Sorc, ML3, Familiar
Exalted Sorc, ML3, Familiar
30x Tzaangor, character

Flesh Hounds are probably a better CC unit, Tzaangors are Obsec. Black Legion has cheaper WC generation, Thousand Sons channel on a 3+ and have Siphon for a more efficient psychic phase. Exalted Sorcs are BS5/I5/3W and have their blast Lascannon, Cabalstar gets a KDK Herald for challenges. Cabal gets more rulebook powers, Thousand Sons get Divination. I have no idea who's better, honestly.

I'm hoping we see some bat reps for 1000 sons soon.

I am still putting my army together as I am needing more kits though has anyone gotten a game in with the new rules?

Some guy on another forum reported playing war cabal with a houserule that they can get to 2++. Was a 2k game vs Gladius. Said it was quite resilient but also slow, so he lost on maelstorm (unsurprisingly) but kept a good chunk of his models alive.

That's an army that relies on mages. Others are basically overpriced meetshields that can't do much on their own. I'm talking about 1k son tacticals and termies cause there wasn't anything else that could fit in a list with a full war cabal below 2k.

For competitive play, go daemons and sorcs. For casual it's fine but writes the list for you.

Noctem wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Curse of the wolfen as far as I know has the description on one daemon formation and the new Tzeentchian warlord trait table.

I would disagree about WoM not being competitive. Rubrics certainly won't be, but I suspect a Pandaemoniad detachment with a Rehati War Sect will prove to be a powerhouse. Take this list for instance:

Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's Host
The blue scribes
3 x 11 blue horrors

Heralds anarchic
Herald, ML1, warlord
Herald, ML1, paradox artifact
Herald, ML1

WoM formation: Rehati war sect

Magnus the Red
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar
DP, MoT, ML3, Wings, Power Armor, Spell familiar


That's almost 2k points. The list produces 26 warp charges, has magnus and his flying circus. Circus casts on a 3+ with rerolls. Daemons have 4++ and I also get access to the new warpstorm table. The horrors cap the backfield objectives and feed warp charges to the flying circus, the Circus puts the dice to good use.

And for people that have been missing this part: Magnus knows TWO str D powers, not just one.

I never said WoM wasn't competitive, just Thousand Sons =P

Ah well... I still have hopes for the scarabs. If nothing else, for the fact that they can deep strike + psychic scream. Rubrics are a lost cause though. And it's a shame, because it would be SO easy to make them decent in just two steps, without even touching the point costs. First, give them 1 cannon per 5 models, not 10. If eldar can have 1:1 ratio on their cannons, I shouldn't need 9 ablative wounds to do so. Second, let the champion take ML(2) for 25 pts. Bam, that's it. Suddenly you can create a unit of 10 with 2 cannons in a rhino and a champion that can warpshock. The unit will cost a lot, sure, but it will be a great dakka providing platform in a kinda mobile/durable shell. The way TS were supposed to be. But nope, we need to have 7 pt flamers on SnP models, almost zero options and still the most stupid/expensive unit champion ever created. Congrats GW.

hashtag still salty :(

Flamers would be decent if they were torrent and ap3. I'd pay 8 pt for that. Even with the warpflame nerf.

I have a quandry:

Ahriman on disc - 260 points
ML4, 3 of the same witchfire a turn, D3 units infiltrating

Exalted sorcerer on disc, with spell familiar and seer's bane - 270 points
ML3, re-roll failed psychic tests (so more efficient with dice), AP2 at initiative weapon with between 7 and 11 attacks on the charge that wound on a 4+ or better with potential ID.

It seems that unless I want to use Ahriman as a witchfire gunboat and desperately need his warlord trait, the exalted sorcerer is the better option. Great in combat, equivalent casting if not spamming witchfire.

The only reason I hesitate is that sons infantry are very very slow and having them midfield on turn 1 is really handy.

Ericthegreen wrote:
I have a quandry:

Ahriman on disc - 260 points
ML4, 3 of the same witchfire a turn, D3 units infiltrating

Exalted sorcerer on disc, with spell familiar and seer's bane - 270 points
ML3, re-roll failed psychic tests (so more efficient with dice), AP2 at initiative weapon with between 7 and 11 attacks on the charge that wound on a 4+ or better with potential ID.

It seems that unless I want to use Ahriman as a witchfire gunboat and desperately need his warlord trait, the exalted sorcerer is the better option. Great in combat, equivalent casting if not spamming witchfire.

The only reason I hesitate is that sons infantry are very very slow and having them midfield on turn 1 is really handy.

You have astral grimoire to make your infantry faster. Exalted sorc is a badass, and he can actually cast better than Ahriman, since ahriman can't take a spell familiar. Ahriman can 3x scream though. And if you play a grand coven, Ahriman can 5 x witchfire which should prove more than adequate to do critical damage.

The choice really seems to be mass shriek vs combat beast

But would eat up all the wc as he still has no familliar and would probably kill him with perils.

 koooaei wrote:
But would eat up all the wc as he still has no familliar and would probably kill him with perils.

Scream is only WC:1, so no big need for a lot of dice. You can go 3x if you are feeling unsafe and stil lbe mostly ok, and remember that WoM lists generate a LOT of charges nowdays. Also, if you play Ahriman as a part of a Grand Coven, dying to perils should not be that much of a problem. In fact it doesn't happen as often as people think. Even without the grand cove, Ahriman would have to perils 3 times and roll 4 or less on all of them to die, and that's if he or nobody else has any spell to heal him (biomancy, geomortis). If you take the grand coven into consideration, I don't think a 3 wounded model can actually die from rolling perils. It just doesn't happen often enough. If Ahriman is a part of Ahriman's exiles as well, that chance goes down even more, as you don't really have to 3 dice your screams any more.

Yes, that's not really up for consideration. I'm not running a grand coven, but spending 9 dice out of a pool of 15 to make sure whatever i need dead dies isn't a problem (using demon CAD allies), there'll still be enough dice in the pool to spread some buffs around for the invun save.

The exalted just brings a packed combat package to the table that Ahriman doesn't, and is pretty tricky to get elsewhere without allies or Tzeentch Marked Terminators.

I'm wondering if I might pick your collective brains about something.

I am wanting to run a TS list which includes both Ahriman and Magnus (I love the models) and I am aiming for 2000pts+ region. I'm thinking Command: Ahriman's exiles for that sweet 3+ casting, Core: Sekhmet Conclave for T8 Magnus plus I love me some Terminators and Aux: I was going to say War Coven to get my DP in on the action but on second thought it is starting to make the list very expensive even for a TS detachment.
With whatever points I have left I was going to add in a Daemons detachment with some Horrors to bring up the number of bodies or attach the Heralds Anarchic, both of which give me some WC to throw around.

Any suggestions before I go fitting it all together?

 mrhappyface wrote:
I'm wondering if I might pick your collective brains about something.

I am wanting to run a TS list which includes both Ahriman and Magnus (I love the models) and I am aiming for 2000pts+ region. I'm thinking Command: Ahriman's exiles for that sweet 3+ casting, Core: Sekhmet Conclave for T8 Magnus plus I love me some Terminators and Aux: I was going to say War Coven to get my DP in on the action but on second thought it is starting to make the list very expensive even for a TS detachment.
With whatever points I have left I was going to add in a Daemons detachment with some Horrors to bring up the number of bodies or attach the Heralds Anarchic, both of which give me some WC to throw around.

Any suggestions before I go fitting it all together?

A barebones Sekhmet is 1400 pts, and you will probably want to make it 1550 to include helyfires and cannons on the scarabs. There is just no way you can include both magnus and ahriman and get casting bonuses. Also, having a T8 magnus would mean ignoring his wings forever and just having him walking 6" per turn. That's how you get your 650 pt model killed by anything. Magnus has wings for a reason. To fly to safety and get good positioning for his beams and novas. I think sekhmet is there for the T5 termies, not for the T8 Magnus.

A fully kitted out Ahriman's Exiles formation would cost 950 pts, give you ML3 exalted sorcs, discs on everybody and spell familiars on your guys. A solo Magnus would take it to 1500, giving you Magnus, Ahriman casting on a 3+. 3 ML3 exalteds casting on 3's with rerolls, 18 warp charges and all the mobility you could wish for. A nice cheap pandaemoniad of tzeentch as primary detachment (blue scribes, 3x11 blue horrors, 3xML1 anarchics) would give you 35 more models with 4++ to hold backfield objectives, 12 more warp charges (to a total 30!), blue scribes shaneninaninaninenigans (screw english) and a nice rerollable roll on the new warpstorm table which is plenty of fun. And that's only 381 pts, getting you to the 1881 mark. Add a tiny allied CSM cad with a barebones HQ and cultists to hide your exiles in the first turn and BAM, you can have it all in 2k. First turn, all your exiles join into a big unit of doom. Cast a blessing on them (preferably invisibility) and enjoy your two pronged terror mobile teams (Magnus + exiles). Keep the daemons on the objectives, use your 30 warp charge pool to decimate the enemy.

gak that looks like it would really work:

Primary Detachment: Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's host:

The blue scribes
11 x blue horrors
11 x blue horrors
11 x blue horrors

Heralds anarchic:

Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch

Ahriman's Exiles formation:

Ahriman, disc
Exalted Sorc ML3, spell familiar, disc
Exalted Sorc ML3, spell familiar, disc
Exalted Sorc ML3, spell familiar, disc

Lord of the Legion formation:

Magnus the Red

Allied CSM CAD

Sorcerer

10 x Cultists
10 x Cultists

I think it hits spot on 2000 pts, maybe 20-30 more, in that case we can remove a spell familiar or a ML on an exalted. You get all of the big guys casting on a 2+ or 3+ with rerolls, 30 warp charges, all the spell powers you would ever need, full mobility, VERY durable backfield objective grabbers (4++ units that split into new 4++ saving units upon dying), tzeentch warpstorm table roll (with reroll), tzeentch warlord trait with reroll that can give all the blue horrors 3++ save (!). I think this is a list that could perform very well in a tournament setting.

And how are you going to keep those sorcs alive? Blos dance all day?

Magnus can't be taken on his own.. but can be the LOW in the CAD. But you wouldn't get to call it a TSons detachment unless you marked all the cultists and the sorcerer. Hmm might be better to put Magnus in a rehati war conclave, drop the exiles and have Ahriman as HQ of the CAD, saving you 60pts, some of which can go on marking the cultists


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or a actually if daemons are primary,downgrade the CAD to an allied detachment

 koooaei wrote:
And how are you going to keep those sorcs alive? Blos dance all day?

A unit of 4, any kind of blessing gives them 3++. They have T5, so pretty resilient to insta killing, and they have 3 wounds each. If I get invisibility they get to immortal status, but also shrouded gives them 2+ cover save when jinking, endurance gives them EW and FnP 4+. Fleshmetal hide gives them Toughness 6 and a 3++. Good luck killing that. Also don't forget that due to jetbikes being able to turbo boost, you can easily use JSJ tactics with them given adequate terrain to hide behind.

Magnus can't be taken on his own

He can, actually. There is a Lord of the Legion command formation in WoM. You can have Magnus alone as such a formation.