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No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

 koooaei wrote:
And how are you going to keep those sorcs alive? Blos dance all day?

That's why I wanted to take the Termies, for a 2+/4++(3++) T5 gun boat that can move 12" with astral grimoire, but he isn't wrong: they are pretty expensive.

The list you have there Topaxy is rather tasty and I hope you won't mind if I use it with a few modifications; I really don't want my termies to be shelved for another year so I want to get something to work around them.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

Hmm. They by the same virtue I cannot have Ahriman's Exiles either? Or is it something I am missing here?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

Hmm. They by the same virtue I cannot have Ahriman's Exiles either? Or is it something I am missing here?

It is simply that for a command option you can take one of the formations or you can take a simple 'lord of the legion' model because it gives you permition to. Outside of this detachment he is still a single model and not a formation.

Ahrimans exiles has its own formation dataslate, so that can be taken by anyone. I just wish it let you have normal sorcerors.

 mrhappyface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

Hmm. They by the same virtue I cannot have Ahriman's Exiles either? Or is it something I am missing here?

It is simply that for a command option you can take one of the formations or you can take a simple 'lord of the legion' model because it gives you permition to. Outside of this detachment he is still a single model and not a formation.

Didn't get that. Why is Ahriman's Exiles considered a formation and can be picked in any list, but a "Lord of the Legion" is not considered a formation?

Ahrimans exiles has its own formation dataslate, so that can be taken by anyone. I just wish it let you have normal sorcerors.

Ok I get it now. So it looks like to do this I would have to make the cad into Thousand Sons, which means 2 troops and MoT on everyone, which would take the list out of the 2k point limit. Unless I can have Magnus as a LoW in a normal CSM CAD. (Can I?) If it's the first case, then one can substitute Ahriman's exiles for 3x ML3 DP with spell familiars and go for a Rahati instead. I don't like it that much, because it knows less spells and you need to perform multiple blessings in order to protect all your units, and also you are paying points for close combat stats yet still are most often than not just flying. But it does give you more threats and increases the survivability of the list. Hmmmmmm.

A standalone formation will have a formation dataslate.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

Hmm. They by the same virtue I cannot have Ahriman's Exiles either? Or is it something I am missing here?

It is simply that for a command option you can take one of the formations or you can take a simple 'lord of the legion' model because it gives you permition to. Outside of this detachment he is still a single model and not a formation.

Didn't get that. Why is Ahriman's Exiles considered a formation and can be picked in any list, but a "Lord of the Legion" is not considered a formation?

See -->

Captyn_Bob wrote:Ahrimans exiles has its own formation dataslate, so that can be taken by anyone. I just wish it let you have normal sorcerors.

 mrhappyface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No there isn't. There's a Lord of the legion auxiliary choice in the grand coven detachment, but to take that you need a core choice, all of which are a lot of points.

Hmm. They by the same virtue I cannot have Ahriman's Exiles either? Or is it something I am missing here?

It is simply that for a command option you can take one of the formations or you can take a simple 'lord of the legion' model because it gives you permition to. Outside of this detachment he is still a single model and not a formation.

Didn't get that. Why is Ahriman's Exiles considered a formation and can be picked in any list, but a "Lord of the Legion" is not considered a formation?

See -->

Captyn_Bob wrote:Ahrimans exiles has its own formation dataslate, so that can be taken by anyone. I just wish it let you have normal sorcerors.

Ok I get it now. So it looks like to do this I would have to make the cad into Thousand Sons, which means 2 troops and MoT on everyone, which would take the list out of the 2k point limit. Unless I can have Magnus as a LoW in a normal CSM CAD. (Can I?) If it's the first case, then one can substitute Ahriman's exiles for 3x ML3 DP with spell familiars and go for a Rahati instead. I don't like it that much, because it knows less spells and you need to perform multiple blessings in order to protect all your units, and also you are paying points for close combat stats yet still are most often than not just flying. But it does give you more threats and increases the survivability of the list. Hmmmmmm.

Rehati don't have to be DP they can be exalted sorcerors exactly like you already have.


(You can take Magnus in a non TS detachment, but he wouldn't get the blessing bonus)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Rehati don't have to be DP they can be exalted sorcerors exactly like you already have.


(You can take Magnus in a non TS detachment, but he wouldn't get the blessing bonus)

Yeah but then you would have to keep them close to magnus to get their 3+ to cast. Damn I feel it is so close but I don't seem to be able to get it perfectly. At any point, magnus + Ahriman + 30 warp charges really can equate the damage output of competitive lists. Gotta be careful of that turn 1 tho.

18" is still a sizable distance, spread at full distance apart with Magnus in the middle you cover almost the entire board.

I'm thinking of taking your list but bumping it up to a 3000pt list (yes I play at 2000, 2500 and 3000) and sticking the scarab formation in there. I can fill one of the occult termie units with as much fire power I can and then stick the sorcerors in it. Grimoire + psychic buffs will give me a 2+/3++/4+++ T5/6 12" moving gun boat with potential invis. 30 WC casting on 3+ and re-rolling on the exalted sorcerors will mean I am almost unstoppable. I can also use Ahriman's warlord trait to infiltrate the gun boat forward along with a second termie squad to keep the +1T.

And there you have it, 3000pts 2x psychic gunboats (termie unit + sorcerors and Magnus) with a Tzeentch WC battery and points to spare.

Yes if you upgrade your points above 2000 the lists become much less constricted and you can breathe easier. But no matter what, I think that a msu pandaemoniad is necessary. 381 pts for 3 units saving on 4++ and duplicating, and pooling 12 WC is way too good to pass.

Honestly though, if it went to 3000 pts I would most probably go strict grand coven with a maxed war coven inside. I think 2+ rerollable terminators are better than toughness 5 terminators, and rerolling 1's to hit can be a big thing for both helyfires and cannons.

Also mind you that you need 3 units of termies close to each other in order to get your toughness bonus, not 2. And that's where it hurts for me. It constricts the list too much. Makes everything have to move together. If it was "+1 toughness if another unit in range" or the range itself was 12" it would be much better.

Or, you know, screw it and go 4000 points and bring a maxed Sekhmet. 9 units of scarabs + magnus plus auxiliaries. Yay for T5, 2+ rerollable terminators. Lose to almost everything at that points range. Still worth it.

Oh I will still take the Pandaemoniad, it is such a nasty detachment for it's points.

The War Coven maxxed out gives you a lot of warp charge but no bodies to have the sorcerors hide behind, yes you could take them as their own unit and buff the **** out of it but that means for every casuality you will lose 1-3WC plus you have no shooting power if your opponent brings something like SoS or an Assassin. 2+ re-rollable is nice but there are psychic powers for that, and well, that is our speciality.

That is a sad fact however you can still make it work if your two mobile units revolve around the one which is a bit slow (or use astral grimoire on them every other turn to make them keep up), if you get turn 1 you can infiltrate the two termie units as far forward as possible and then just fly Magnus up to meet them. It isn't ideal but hey, there has to be some kind of short coming to this list.

How about taking out Magnus and purchasing a Cult of destruction with astral grimoire?

12 WC Pandaemoniad (381)

Thousand Sons allied cad:

Sorc ML1, MoT
15 x cultists, MoT

Ahriman's exiles with discs and spell familiars (950)

Cult of destruction
Warpsmith, MoT, Astral Grimoire
3 x Oblits, MoT (warpsmith joins here)
Oblit, MoT
Oblit, MoT

This way your second big unit becomes a swiss army knife that is good in every situation. They have 12" move due to grimoire, they can shoot twice in the shooting phase, they become a serious close combat threat due to warpsmith's 5 attacks with ap2 and the oblits' power fists. They are still part of the TS cad so they can get 3++ by getting a blessing cast on them. The two extra oblits can deepstrike and try to harass some weak target or go for multimelta business.

By tweaking points we can add the seer's bane on one of the exalted sorcs in the Ahriman's exiled and get ourselves two units that are good in multiple phases of the game.

This could be a thing against more friendly lists, where you don't want to pick magnus and make your gaming buddy miserable.

Problem is I love the Magnus model and want to use him if I can.

But as far as none Magnus lists the cult of distruction isn't a bad idea, the only problem is that the astral grimoire is something that everyone is going to want so 'wasting' it on giving a warpsmith 12" might be counter preductive.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Problem is I love the Magnus model and want to use him if I can.

But as far as none Magnus lists the cult of distruction isn't a bad idea, the only problem is that the astral grimoire is something that everyone is going to want so 'wasting' it on giving a warpsmith 12" might be counter preductive.

A warpsmith and the obliterator unit. Oblits are 2 wound power fist terminators if you look at them, and being able to have terminators with 12" move is a huge thing. Also, being that fast can mean a lot once you factor in the fact that they shoot twice. Suddenly they can go from awesome anti tank (move 12" to side armor instead of front and go multimelta + melta or multimelta + lascannon). Also with 12" move they can hit swarms so hard with TL flamers + heavy flamers. It's a unit that is good in all the phases (movement, shooting, close combat).

 koooaei wrote:
Flamers would be decent if they were torrent and ap3. I'd pay 8 pt for that. Even with the warpflame nerf.

I was really hoping for torrent on the heavy flamer at least. Having them on all the flamers would be crazy, lol.
Seems eldritchy...

The warpflame nerf just kills it for me though...

Got a fun game this coming weekend for charity and was concerned with all the rules and new psyker stuff (I dont have much experience with psyker armies).

So what's the best way to use Magnus? I'll have Ahriman, 1 Rubric sorc, 1 exalted sorc, and 1 scarab termie sorc for charges. Which disciplines? It'll be the grand coven as a detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Am I understanding this right? To get the +1 Invuln save while needing a blessing, does use the psyker power "force" count?

"Force is a blessing psychic power that targets the Psyker and his unit. All of the targets’ weapons that have the Force special rule gain the Instant Death special rule until the start of your next Psychic phase."

That targets the Psyker and his unit. Would that count as an easy way to get it without having to gamble on what powers to roll for?

Yes, force gets the job done for the whole unit.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Yes, force gets the job done for the whole unit.

Ok. so last question I have for now then. Does the blessing have to actually target the unit, or can we get by with it saying "target psyker, the psyker and his unit get X"

Actually the wording is if you are affected by a blessing not targeted by it.

Technically speaking then the unit has been affected if the psycker gets buffed within the unit, but we woild have to summon a rules lawyer to be sure...

Ok. I'm just trying to brush up on all the psyker rules I'll need for this Saturday. Used to playing Crons and Salamanders. Now I'll be playing 1k Sons with Magnus, Ahriman and a bunch of psykers.

Yup. In a war cabal, "force" gives you reroll 1s to hit, +1 invulnerable save, and instant death on the sorcerors whopping stick. Not bad for 1 warp charge.

So any ideas on what powers to aim for with Ahriman, a rubric sorc, a termie sorc, and an exalted sorc?

Ahriman definitely wants to roll his powers on telepathy for both psychic shriek spam and a chance for invis. The rest of your psykers want a combination of biomancy/divination, for the buffs, and Telepathy/Heretic (<--that's the one with vehicle curse stuff right?) for some fire power.

Remember though, all of them must roll at least one power on Tzeentch due to mark of Tzeentch BS rules for psykers.

Did I miss anything?

Sounds good Any particular skills I should aim for and/or trade in for primaris?

Biomancy: Relentless is what you want, your big units are gonna love 3++/4+++. Depending on your play style you might want something else from biomancy but relentless is your priority.

Divination: Precience and Perfect timing, ap3 bolters got a whole lot scarier with twin linked and ignores cover. Most of the rest of the powers on div don't really benefit a TS army.

Heretic: I can't even remember the right name how am I supposed to know the powers! Basically anything haywire or anti tank.

Telepathy (the big one): Get psychic shriek on all your sorcerers and watch whatever none vehicle your opponant brought melt before your eyes. Invis is a great way to make your opponant cry when they are hitting on 6s vs a unit with 3++/4+++. Shrouded is nice for anything you have on a disc for a 2+ cover save (re-rollable on daemons or maxxed out formations). Those are three you want on this discipline.

I almost forgot, if you are taking a daemon ally detachment...

Malefic: Summoning, fill the board with horrors! Mwahahaha! Cursed earth, pandemonia with a 3++? Thanks. Magnus with a 2++ re-rollable? Thanks!

Hope this helps. (And someone help me out with the damned anti tank discipline!)

Yes, I was going to add in summoning. I just makes sense the more I think about it and is designed to pump up the numbers of our low body count army if one may choose.

MrHappyFace gives a good run down.

Also I like the Tzeenth discipline save for the primaris and boon and if you get misfortune then your Firestorm rends.

Though I personally will be fishing for Devolution, Treason, siphon and be happy w breath if I get it.

Oops, forgot one,

Tzeentch: Siphon magic, you are gonna be firing off up to 7 powers per turn so this gives you an extra 6WC at the end of the turn to play with (which may or may not carry over to the next phase due to RAW). Doombolt, nice simple tank killer. The spawn one (I don't know something about dedication, it's late), enemy have a character you don't like? Turn it into a spawn, job done.