Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Oops, forgot one,

Tzeentch: Siphon magic, you are gonna be firing off up to 7 powers per turn so this gives you an extra 6WC at the end of the turn to play with (which may or may not carry over to the next phase due to RAW). Doombolt, nice simple tank killer. The spawn one (I don't know something about dedication, it's late), enemy have a character you don't like? Turn it into a spawn, job done.

Doombolt, that's the one I was forgetting. 4 out of 6 of the powers are strong.

Baleful Devolution is d6 assault Str 6 AP 2 shots. Instant death on a 6 and a chaos spawn places 2 inches from where the model was removed. Might be random but when it goes off it can make for some fun disruption in your enemies ranks.

Makes me want to run the warherd and add in some chaos spawn to sit in front and soak fire while rolling in, in front of the Tzaangors. Having Baleful Devolution go off would be gravy.

I think that relying on rolling the power you want is what leads to weak psychic phases.

In my opinion, Tzeentch is very weak. Mostly because the primaris is really really bad. Also boon sucks and breath doesn't really justify its WC cost. Doombolt, baleful devolution and treason of tzeentch are good though.

I think the sweet spot in a thousand son psychic phase is in two disciplines with excellent primaris powers: telepathy and ectomancy. Telepathy is obvious, shrouded/invis are top level spells and if you don't get them you may always swap for what is perhaps the best witchfire power in the game. The second hidden gem is Ectomancy. First of all, any TS Daemon Prince rolling on empyric shield gets instant god mode (2+ invul save rerollable). Ghostform and soulswitch can save your unit/deathstar and can even get you out of tricky combats you don't want to be in. Coruscating blaze is a nice witchfire with the potential to do great damage to clumped up enemies like zombie hordes. But as I said before, a discipline shines when it has a great primaris, so that no spell goes wasted. And Ectomancy has Warpshock. That's an assault 6, str 5, ap4 witchfire. As potent as they get, all your sorcerers can have the equivalent of two heavy bolters. This is stronger than having your horrors shooting their 2d6 powers. The reasons are plenty: Warpshock doesn't have warpflame. Thousand sons sorcerers have BS 4 or 5 (or 7 hehehe) whereas horrors have a mere 3. CSM sorcerers that are part of formations can cast warpshock on a 3+ and possibly with spell familiar rerolls, which means that they can often 1-dice it. Finally, if your sorcerers are part of a War Coven they immediately get to re-roll 1's to hit upon casting the power. The fact that warpshock is a primaris power can lead to ridiculous amount of mind bullets (an ahriman's exile pack can shoot up to 36 shots at str 5 and ap4 in a single turn, and still have plenty of spells left to go around). Scarab champions can also get it to supplement their units' shooting, even though scream is possibly better.

In other disciplines, heretech has a 50% per roll to give your sorcerer a hull point stripping ability (either 1 or d3). Geomortis can help heal your Ahriman or Magnus if they start getting in the danger zone. Also, Earthly anathema can give your units the sweet combo of ap3 and ignores cover saves, and torturer of worlds is a hidden gem that - if taken on a flying DP- can completely crush assault based armies. Sinistrum has Warp Fate, which also gives god mode status to the scarab occult terminator deathstars and Armour of Hatred is a blessing that affects multiple units and therefore can grace multiple units with a Blessing of Tzeentch in a single cast.

In a lesser extend, pyromancy can be used well against horde armies and divination always has its sweet treats (although I think that - given the war coven bonuses- divination is kind of not really needed).

Well with this army, what would you guys recommend?

Magnus
Ahriman
Exalted Sorc
Rubrics with Sorc, Reaper, 2x Flamer
Scarab Termies with Sorc, Missile and Reaper
Triple Las Pred

The reason for the small army is it's a fun 1850 for charity and I wanted to use what I got from the pre-release

I'm assuming get Psychic Screech on Ahriman for sure, right? I really like the idea of ignores cover as I expect them to be taking advantage of that. Invisibility on Magnus sounds broken as all hell, specially if he can use it to get into combat. And of course, any Blessing to get that better Inv save.

Sounds nice to me. It's also a grand coven so you get all your bonuses. I prefer my predators with auto/las, I think more shots are better against small tanks and I don't see many big tanks around nowdays. But hey, whatever rows your boat.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Sounds nice to me. It's also a grand coven so you get all your bonuses. I prefer my predators with auto/las, I think more shots are better against small tanks and I don't see many big tanks around nowdays. But hey, whatever rows your boat.

Lol fair enough, but it's already built from my glory days in the Black Legion

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I think that relying on rolling the power you want is what leads to weak psychic phases.

In my opinion, Tzeentch is very weak. Mostly because the primaris is really really bad. Also boon sucks and breath doesn't really justify its WC cost. Doombolt, baleful devolution and treason of tzeentch are good though.

I think the sweet spot in a thousand son psychic phase is in two disciplines with excellent primaris powers: telepathy and ectomancy. Telepathy is obvious, shrouded/invis are top level spells and if you don't get them you may always swap for what is perhaps the best witchfire power in the game. The second hidden gem is Ectomancy. First of all, any TS Daemon Prince rolling on empyric shield gets instant god mode (2+ invul save rerollable). Ghostform and soulswitch can save your unit/deathstar and can even get you out of tricky combats you don't want to be in. Coruscating blaze is a nice witchfire with the potential to do great damage to clumped up enemies like zombie hordes. But as I said before, a discipline shines when it has a great primaris, so that no spell goes wasted. And Ectomancy has Warpshock. That's an assault 6, str 5, ap4 witchfire. As potent as they get, all your sorcerers can have the equivalent of two heavy bolters. This is stronger than having your horrors shooting their 2d6 powers. The reasons are plenty: Warpshock doesn't have warpflame. Thousand sons sorcerers have BS 4 or 5 (or 7 hehehe) whereas horrors have a mere 3. CSM sorcerers that are part of formations can cast warpshock on a 3+ and possibly with spell familiar rerolls, which means that they can often 1-dice it. Finally, if your sorcerers are part of a War Coven they immediately get to re-roll 1's to hit upon casting the power. The fact that warpshock is a primaris power can lead to ridiculous amount of mind bullets (an ahriman's exile pack can shoot up to 36 shots at str 5 and ap4 in a single turn, and still have plenty of spells left to go around). Scarab champions can also get it to supplement their units' shooting, even though scream is possibly better.

In other disciplines, heretech has a 50% per roll to give your sorcerer a hull point stripping ability (either 1 or d3). Geomortis can help heal your Ahriman or Magnus if they start getting in the danger zone. Also, Earthly anathema can give your units the sweet combo of ap3 and ignores cover saves, and torturer of worlds is a hidden gem that - if taken on a flying DP- can completely crush assault based armies. Sinistrum has Warp Fate, which also gives god mode status to the scarab occult terminator deathstars and Armour of Hatred is a blessing that affects multiple units and therefore can grace multiple units with a Blessing of Tzeentch in a single cast.

In a lesser extend, pyromancy can be used well against horde armies and divination always has its sweet treats (although I think that - given the war coven bonuses- divination is kind of not really needed).

Well yeah, everyone has to adapt their strategy to what they roll... Hoping you get the powers you want is a poor strategy.

You bring up great a great point by the primaris. Out of the armies that I have the Primaris is good. Harlies, Tyranids and I forgot the Eldar Primaris (Is it guide?) I think so. The Firestorm is something that needs to be amended. I would even take the random STR if it had an AP 4 or even 5.

What pages were the leaked photos on in the other thread? I have the book obviously, but I want to make my own dataslates so I don't miss simple rules like flying monstrous creatures, etc. However I'm at work and didn't bring my book with me like an idiot.

@Nintura, don't forget you also get the entire "Discipline of Change" through Magnus.

He'll probably eat most of your Warp Charge so get familiar with that table.

Yoyoyo wrote:
@Nintura, don't forget you also get the entire "Discipline of Change" through Magnus.

He'll probably eat most of your Warp Charge so get familiar with that table.

Will do. Making some of my own custom dataslates so I can remember all this stuff when it comes time Just wish I hadn't left my book at home.

So I have managed to secure a 4000pt game against two of my friends, Ork and Imperial guard each taking 2000pts vs me. Oooo the possibilities.

Here is my general list that I am working with now that I have freedom of points.

TS detachment

Command -
Ahriman's exiles:
Ahriman
3x Exalted sorcerors

Core -
Sehkmet Conclave:
Magnus
3x Occult Termies

Aux -
War Coven:
Daemon Prince
3x sorcerors


Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's Host:
The blue scribes
3x Blue horrors

Heralds anarchic:
3xHeralds

Heldrake Terror pack
2xHeldrakes

By my calculations that brings me around about in the 4000pt region, with upgrades. I should have in the region of 40+WC to cast with.

What relics should I take? I am going to try to fit in the astral grimoire, Seer's bane, Athaenien scroles and paradox, are there any others I should try to bring? Also how about the formations? I am not budging when it comes to Ahriman's formation and the termie formation but the rest I'll take suggestions on.

Basically I am aiming for strong midfield control and utter domination of the psychic phase. Also the two I am facing are well known for their tank gun lines (yes even the ork player) so Magnus and his gaze will be my main tank killer. When it comes to objectives I am hoping to blast my opponants off of objectives and summon new units onto them.

As I said, any input is welcome. Also, if anyone is interested, I could try to right up a battle report for it.

Where can I get a list of the Ectomancy powers? Is that WoM or another book?

 nintura wrote:
Where can I get a list of the Ectomancy powers? Is that WoM or another book?

WoM and Traitor's Hate both have the new Heretic Astartes Powers. You can also find them in a separate card pack along with the other three disciplines.

Traitor Legions also have the new powers.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So I have managed to secure a 4000pt game against two of my friends, Ork and Imperial guard each taking 2000pts vs me. Oooo the possibilities.

Here is my general list that I am working with now that I have freedom of points.

TS detachment

Command -
Ahriman's exiles:
Ahriman
3x Exalted sorcerors

Core -
Sehkmet Conclave:
Magnus
3x Occult Termies

Aux -
War Coven:
Daemon Prince
3x sorcerors


Pandaemoniad of Tzeentch

Lorestealer's Host:
The blue scribes
3x Blue horrors

Heralds anarchic:
3xHeralds

Heldrake Terror pack
2xHeldrakes

By my calculations that brings me around about in the 4000pt region, with upgrades. I should have in the region of 40+WC to cast with.

What relics should I take? I am going to try to fit in the astral grimoire, Seer's bane, Athaenien scroles and paradox, are there any others I should try to bring? Also how about the formations? I am not budging when it comes to Ahriman's formation and the termie formation but the rest I'll take suggestions on.

Basically I am aiming for strong midfield control and utter domination of the psychic phase. Also the two I am facing are well known for their tank gun lines (yes even the ork player) so Magnus and his gaze will be my main tank killer. When it comes to objectives I am hoping to blast my opponants off of objectives and summon new units onto them.

As I said, any input is welcome. Also, if anyone is interested, I could try to right up a battle report for it.

To begin with I would give discs to the Exiles. Witchfires have poor range and you will need the extra mobility. Also, +1 toughness to your big points would not go amiss. Then obviously the mandatory upgrades to the scarabs (helyfire, cannon). I would think that maybe at that high points game having some bodies and some ObSec might do you more good than having a War Coven. With Magnus and the exiles you have adequate magic damage outlets already, and if you go too heavy on that you might get diminishing returns on your values. Mind you, Magnus is going to be casting 6 powers. Supposing 1 dice for a blessing (Siphon Magic) to bless up, then 7 dice for gaze, 4 dice for the change discipline D power, 4 dice for a treason, 2 dice for a doombolt and 2 more for a bolt of change, that's 20 dice Magnus will be swallowing just for himself. The exiles can 1 dice most spells, but even if they go straight WC1 spam, you will need 9-12 dice for the exalted and 10 for Ahriman (to play safe by 2 castting his powers). That's an extra 20ish dice for the exilesm, so 40 dice for them and Magnus already. Of course Magnus with Siphon Magic should be able to generate another 4-5 and maybe you get siphon magic with other sorcerers as well. But you will probably come to a point that your war coven won't really have any dice to use.

That being said, if Magnus gets off 2 str D powers, a treason, 2 ap1 high str beams, then the exiles cast 6 screams and a couple extra witchfires you are in for a terrifying psychic phase, able to decimate any number of opponents (oh the screams against the Orks... oh the humanity).

All in all, I would swap the war coven for another auxiliary and a basic CAD, to get me more bodies and some ObSec. Also I dunno if I would play the helldrake formation, not big fan of them, especially in a Thousand Son army. I think they are best in the Night Lord detachment to benefit from all those stacking morale penalties. Maybe you can add 1 helldrake as your mandatory auxiliary for the Grand Coven and then you should have about 1000 pts available to spend on a CAD. Maybe play Be'Lakor as an extra HQ. Be'Lakor will give you extra fighting power due to his badass sword and stats, and you could have invisibility on demand for your Ahriman's Exiles. As for artifacts, I would certainly add the Seer's Bane on an exalted sorcerer from the exiles. Then I could surprise the opponent by switching from a mobile, psychic dakka focused army to a swift close combat alpha strike (magnus, be'lakor and the seer's bane exiles all charging together and decimating an unsuspecting enemy. Astral grimoire would be good if you have ObSec units because you can quickly jump to where you are needed. Perhaps I could also add some bikers or chaos spawns for the exiles to ride along.

TL,DR version: Swap the War Coven for a CAD for bodies and ObSec. Magnus and the exiles will consume 40ish dice per turn, it's enough to kill most things. Maybe also play Be'Lakor for invisibility on demand and more close combat power.

So if I take out the War Coven and replace it with a Heldrake then take out the Heldrake Terror pack and replace it with either:

CSM CAD:
Be'lakor
Cultists
Cultists

Or

Daemon CAD:
Lord of Change, impossible robes, ML3, rewards, etc.
Pink horrors (11)
Pink horrors (11)

The first CAD is cheaper so I have more points to put back into the main army or add some shooty stuff into the CSM CAD, but the second CAD adds another 7WC and the Lord of Change can be used as a 2++ re-rollable beat stick to get stuck in with Magnus and the sorcerors.

My preference is towards the second CAD but what do you think?

You can make the horror CAD cheaper by downgrading the horrors. Ofc not as efficient but useful for points scrounging

I'll see how many points I have at left once I have given everything upgrades, if I'm a bit short I'll cut back on the horrors.

Wow, a great luxury to play 1000 Sons at 4k. Take what you want!!

Excited to hear how it goes.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I think that relying on rolling the power you want is what leads to weak psychic phases.

In my opinion, Tzeentch is very weak. Mostly because the primaris is really really bad. Also boon sucks and breath doesn't really justify its WC cost. Doombolt, baleful devolution and treason of tzeentch are good though.

I think the sweet spot in a thousand son psychic phase is in two disciplines with excellent primaris powers: telepathy and ectomancy. Telepathy is obvious, shrouded/invis are top level spells and if you don't get them you may always swap for what is perhaps the best witchfire power in the game. The second hidden gem is Ectomancy. First of all, any TS Daemon Prince rolling on empyric shield gets instant god mode (2+ invul save rerollable). Ghostform and soulswitch can save your unit/deathstar and can even get you out of tricky combats you don't want to be in. Coruscating blaze is a nice witchfire with the potential to do great damage to clumped up enemies like zombie hordes. But as I said before, a discipline shines when it has a great primaris, so that no spell goes wasted. And Ectomancy has Warpshock. That's an assault 6, str 5, ap4 witchfire. As potent as they get, all your sorcerers can have the equivalent of two heavy bolters. This is stronger than having your horrors shooting their 2d6 powers. The reasons are plenty: Warpshock doesn't have warpflame. Thousand sons sorcerers have BS 4 or 5 (or 7 hehehe) whereas horrors have a mere 3. CSM sorcerers that are part of formations can cast warpshock on a 3+ and possibly with spell familiar rerolls, which means that they can often 1-dice it. Finally, if your sorcerers are part of a War Coven they immediately get to re-roll 1's to hit upon casting the power. The fact that warpshock is a primaris power can lead to ridiculous amount of mind bullets (an ahriman's exile pack can shoot up to 36 shots at str 5 and ap4 in a single turn, and still have plenty of spells left to go around). Scarab champions can also get it to supplement their units' shooting, even though scream is possibly better.

In other disciplines, heretech has a 50% per roll to give your sorcerer a hull point stripping ability (either 1 or d3). Geomortis can help heal your Ahriman or Magnus if they start getting in the danger zone. Also, Earthly anathema can give your units the sweet combo of ap3 and ignores cover saves, and torturer of worlds is a hidden gem that - if taken on a flying DP- can completely crush assault based armies. Sinistrum has Warp Fate, which also gives god mode status to the scarab occult terminator deathstars and Armour of Hatred is a blessing that affects multiple units and therefore can grace multiple units with a Blessing of Tzeentch in a single cast.

In a lesser extend, pyromancy can be used well against horde armies and divination always has its sweet treats (although I think that - given the war coven bonuses- divination is kind of not really needed).

The boon power would actually be okay if the table weren't so blasted large and therefore not reliable.

Unless you get that world eater warlord trait where every single boon becomes +1 Attack I just like the mental image that gives lol

 mrhappyface wrote:
So if I take out the War Coven and replace it with a Heldrake then take out the Heldrake Terror pack and replace it with either:

CSM CAD:
Be'lakor
Cultists
Cultists

Or

Daemon CAD:
Lord of Change, impossible robes, ML3, rewards, etc.
Pink horrors (11)
Pink horrors (11)

The first CAD is cheaper so I have more points to put back into the main army or add some shooty stuff into the CSM CAD, but the second CAD adds another 7WC and the Lord of Change can be used as a 2++ re-rollable beat stick to get stuck in with Magnus and the sorcerors.

My preference is towards the second CAD but what do you think?

Personally I am in love with Be'lakor. He has everything. He is a winged DP with innate shrouding (jinking gets him to 2+ cover), he's a ML4 sorcerer, he has a badass weapon so he's also a beast in hth and he knows all spells from the best discipline in the game. By getting Be'lakor you automatically do not need to waste rolls trying to get invisibility on any other sorcerer and you are free to roll on disciplines like heretech or geomortis. Imagine a scenario where you are trying to roll invis for your exiles deathstar and it just doesn't happen. So you end up having scream to 4-5 different sorcerers (not that this is a bad thing, but some times the enemy has Ld 10). and then you get to hold on to stupid spells like mental fortitude, terrify or hallucinations. With Be'lakor you just choose the amount of screams you need (usually just one on Ahriman is enough) and then you can roll on your rest 9 lores available to you.

I don't know much about Lords of Change, daemons aren't really my cup of cake, but I know they can do some silly stuff and of course you can have the grimoire of true names to make your Magnus into god mode. Basically you fly with magnus, but if at the start of the turn you get your grimoire going and your baby gets 2++ rerollable, then you are free to glide him and get ready to smash faces the next turn. In that case I would skip pink horrors and go straight to the blues. I think that once enemies understand what horrors do, they are never ever touching the pinks under any circumstances. I don't think that's what you want. You want the enemy to think that he can cripple your WC pool by sending forces to the horrors. Of course he cannot, because horrors are broken. But I think with pinks, you are paying 200 pts to get the same amount of dice you were getting with the blues for 110 pts. 90 pts may not be much, but in the grand scheme of things everything counts. 90 pts could be more cultists on your cad or an extra burning chariot of tzeentch on your daemonic cad or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The boon power would actually be okay if the table weren't so blasted large and therefore not reliable.

The boon is awful. First of all, you have to spend WC to cast it. Then you have to take a hit. A hit that can kill you (if you are a 58 pt rubric champ), a hit that can cripple you if you are a 2 wound sorcerer, a hit that can ground you (and therefore take half your life away) if you are a swooping DP. And after all of this, you get to roll on a random table, where you get denied the best roll (Dark Apotheosis) but you could always roll for spawnhood. And even in the best of cases, what you get is something akin to +1 Ballistic Skill. Wow. This is so bad, that the thought you actually actively spend resources to do this is enough to make your opponent laugh. To put this into perspective, Magnus can become a chaos spawn because he cast a blessing on himself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The boon power would actually be okay if the table weren't so blasted large and therefore not reliable.

You need some kind of results mitigation to dodge Spawnhood and a character who benefits from most of the table.

Exalted Sorcerers are good choices, having 3W definitely helps.

--> +1 to Ranged Strength (S10 beam, or S5 pistol)
--> +1 to CC strength (S7 Force Staff, S10 with Iron Arm)
--> +1 to T (with Disc, T6)
--> +1 to Armor Save (2+ save)
--> +1 to BS (better scatter)
--> EW, Shrouded, FNP, +1W, reroll failed armor saves
--> Fleshbane, ID, +1A, Shred, Hatred, Poison, +1 WS, +1 Init
--> Adamantium Will, auto-wound on Deny
--> Crusader, Fleet

Everything is pretty useful except for Stubborn and Icy Aura.

Hmmm, garanteed invis/shrouded or WC batteries + an unkillable beat stick psyker. On the one hand I can buff my big units to unkillability whilst on the other I have more WC to throw at powers which cause unkillability and I have another distraction unit. Hmmm...

I'm getting together with a friend tomorrow who has been obsessing over the Wrath of Magnus book almost as much as me, that's when I'll be actually putting the list together. I'll get some more opinions on the matter then I'll post the final list.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Then you have to take a hit. A hit that can kill you (if you are a 58 pt rubric champ), a hit that can cripple you if you are a 2 wound sorcerer, a hit that can ground you (and therefore take half your life away) if you are a swooping DP.

Disregard what I wrote prior to this edit.

Anyways... you control that hit, Topaxy. So you're never forced into fragging your own units.

Yoyoyo wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Then you have to take a hit. A hit that can kill you (if you are a 58 pt rubric champ), a hit that can cripple you if you are a 2 wound sorcerer, a hit that can ground you (and therefore take half your life away) if you are a swooping DP.

Disregard what I wrote prior to this edit.

Anyways... you control that hit, Topaxy. So you're never forced into fragging your own units.

How do you control it?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Personally I am in love with Be'lakor. He has everything. He is a winged DP with innate shrouding (jinking gets him to 2+ cover), he's a ML4 sorcerer,

Hopefully that's a typo.. I hate to break it to you, but Belakor is only ML 3.
OFC knowing all the telepathy spells more than makes up for it

Captyn_Bob wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Personally I am in love with Be'lakor. He has everything. He is a winged DP with innate shrouding (jinking gets him to 2+ cover), he's a ML4 sorcerer,

Hopefully that's a typo.. I hate to break it to you, but Belakor is only ML 3.
OFC knowing all the telepathy spells more than makes up for it

Quite possible. I haven't looked into the dataslate for ages. Still he's a freaking beast though.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How do you control it?

Try Iron Arm on a T5 model. Which is a good candidate, as the Boon table confers a lot of CC advantages but not Smash or AP2.

You still need something to counter Spawnhood, either Apostle or Fateweaver.

What do you guys think about the Rahati War Sect?

I want to build mine with Magnus (AOS Archaon Drogbar Model XD) with some Daemonprinces. (all ML 3 with spellfamiliar and wings)

Should i give the DPs armour? And which relics should i give them?

There was actually a whole article on that.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/08/wrath-of-magnus-review-formation-rehati-war-sect/

PA is not recommended as it makes you more vulnerable to Grav weaponry.