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They start at 160 pts the ordnance strike is reaally not free


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shame the D beam didn't do more. :(

Yeah, I got 7 of his DA, psykers, Inquisitors under it but I rolled no 6s, two 1s and he saved the rest. :(

 mrhappyface wrote:
Yeah, I got 7 of his DA, psykers, Inquisitors under it but I rolled no 6s, two 1s and he saved the rest. :(

So you're saying it could have easily done more

What about a lower cost game? Say 1850 where youre opponent might not be able to bring much to bear to try and beat him and the rest of your army combined? I see you got him into combat, did you ever think to just fly him?

Yeah, I think I'll keep him flying myself. Take vector strikes when you can get them and make sure he's out of combat for witchfires. You won't have to worry about casting many buffs on him either because the flying alone will make him survivable enough that opponents probably won't focus resources on him.

Funny info: An Exalted Sorc has 3 base attacks plus a pistol. That's 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, 6 with a disc bonus. So a seer's bane on an exalted is 6+d6 attacks on the charge. That's not funny, and can potentially decimate an entire unit in a single turn. Also remember that you wound vs the majority leadership, not the maximum in the unit.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Funny info: An Exalted Sorc has 3 base attacks plus a pistol. That's 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, 6 with a disc bonus. So a seer's bane on an exalted is 6+d6 attacks on the charge. That's not funny, and can potentially decimate an entire unit in a single turn. Also remember that you wound vs the majority leadership, not the maximum in the unit.

I.... I might have to change my. My list for tomorrow... yes. I might have to do that.

Yeah, I was sad I couldn't fit the seer's bane on an exalted sorc with disc into my full war cabal 1850 list but I did put that into my regular war cabal list. The fact that it instant deaths most models even without casting force is very nice for all the space wolf and iron hands stars I fight.

It doesn't seem worth it at all on a regular sorc though because of the lower initiative, attacks, and greater risk of being killed by the weapon and perils at only 2 wounds.

The special 1ksons weapons are bad across the board, both on rubrics and on scarabs.

You simply don't get an increase in firepower that isn't covered by simply getting more dudes.

Helfyre Missiles are quite cheap and gives some (mostly) needed anti-tank.

Soulreaper Cannons are imo only used because they're cool.

 nintura wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Funny info: An Exalted Sorc has 3 base attacks plus a pistol. That's 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, 6 with a disc bonus. So a seer's bane on an exalted is 6+d6 attacks on the charge. That's not funny, and can potentially decimate an entire unit in a single turn. Also remember that you wound vs the majority leadership, not the maximum in the unit.

I.... I might have to change my. My list for tomorrow... yes. I might have to do that.

I lol'd. Some more info you might find useful: Roll on Biomancy or Sinistrum on the Seer's bane holder. Biomancy for Warp Speed and endurance (Iron Arm doesn't do much to help in hth), Sinistrum for Diabolic Strength, Death Hex (to cancel the only thing that can hold back your Seer's Bane), Warp Fate if you play a deathstar and Armour of Hatred (blessing that affects all friendly units within 12" and activates multiple Blessings of Tzeentch). Have another guy with Prescience and pop in a force and just wreck faces. It will also be a surprise, because nobody will really expect to get assaulted by Thousand Sons. Imagine their surprise after the assault phase...

Also, (that's kind of a longshot to achieve but worth mentioning nonetheless), If your primary detachment is a Pandaemoniad, you get access to rerollable Tzeentchian Warpstorm Table. The most common roll on that table, #7, gives each player d3 rerolls for the turn. These rerolls can be used to negate a potential 1 on your daemonic weapon roll for the bonus attacks.

Iron Arm gives +3 strength and toughness and the Smash rule. Other than the toughness it is ONLY HTH benefit.

I see where you are going with this in that leadership is likely to be 10 and that is used for to wound rolls, but Iron Arm still had use if you end up in CC with a vehicle. I wouldn't fish for it but it has done value if you end up with it.

+Strenght and Smash is useless on a Seer's Bane-wielder though, since they dont use their strenght when attacking and already have AP2.

+Thoughness is nice, but I'd prefer Warpspeed and Endurance.

Still I believe that Sinistrum will provide the best bonuses in such a situation. Death's Hex will be the answer to the enemy death stars.

Meanwhile, if you play the whole Ahriman's Exiles on discs, the remaining 3 guys (other than the seer's bane dude) have an extra 18 attacks @ str 6 ap4 with force on the charge in addition to the super dude. Any kind of blanket blessing on that unit will go a long way. Too bad we can't take Sanctic Demo for hammerhand

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Still I believe that Sinistrum will provide the best bonuses in such a situation. Death's Hex will be the answer to the enemy death stars.

Meanwhile, if you play the whole Ahriman's Exiles on discs, the remaining 3 guys (other than the seer's bane dude) have an extra 18 attacks @ str 6 ap4 with force on the charge in addition to the super dude. Any kind of blanket blessing on that unit will go a long way. Too bad we can't take Sanctic Demo for hammerhand

Sorcerers (non-exalted) can. You can't take them in the Exiles but you can in most of the other formations.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I don't think I would play this army in the future: there are far too many things to keep track of in the psychic phase, those psychic powers don't always go off and those psychic powers are your only source of ranged attack.

Thanks for the great writeup, and don't be too hard on yourself! It's a very unique army, and the psychic phase is a maze of options. I think we can learn a lot of good lessons. Which is the purpose of wargaming, in the professional sense.

This will be easier if we can break it down into bite-size pieces.

1) Tracking the psychic phase. Very complicated, especially with 50+ WC.
2) Selection and application of psychic powers.
3) Mobility.
4) Application of firepower in the shooting phase.
5) The benefits and drawbacks of assaulting.
6) Survivability, mass and attrition.

I have a question about the enemy Force composition.

Was their army more or less exclusively Gretchin, 2+/4++ Terminators, and AV14?

Thanks MrHappyFace. It was only one game and the dice are not always favorable. Try a few more games before giving in.

4000 is a lot to keep track of especially for a new army.

The book keeping in psychic phase I am not looking forward to.

"What spell did he cast, what did he have, ooof forgot that was active, how many points do I have left, did this unit get a blessing, I forget" I may have to lay off the libations so my buddies do not get frustrated with me, lol.

Yoyoyo wrote:

I have a question about the enemy Force composition.

Was their army more or less exclusively Gretchin, 2+/4++ Terminators, and AV14?

No terminators, the DA were veterans with ss alongside psykers and inquisitors. There were two units of Gretchin, some scattered retenue, scouts and the rest were tanks and SH walkers.

1) Tracking the psychic phase. Very complicated, especially with 50+ WC.


I saw on another forum suggesting taking a photo of your sorcerors, make laminated cards that you can write the spells they know on and maybe other notes

Crazy work upfront but not bad idea...

What do you think are some good tactics for Thousand Sons/Tzeentch against Skyhammer?

I don't have any Tzaangors/Termies but I have mostly everything else in those 2 factions.

Are there any ways besides the Tzeentch warlord trait of making difficult terrain areas? If so you could have a null zone of difficult terrain in your deployement to prevent the enemy from deep striking behind your lines and/or deep striking and charging.

 Skerr wrote:
Thanks MrHappyFace. It was only one game and the dice are not always favorable. Try a few more games before giving in.

4000 is a lot to keep track of especially for a new army.

The book keeping in psychic phase I am not looking forward to.

"What spell did he cast, what did he have, ooof forgot that was active, how many points do I have left, did this unit get a blessing, I forget" I may have to lay off the libations so my buddies do not get frustrated with me, lol.

I have a notebook with me during games. I write down the spells each sorc knows. Next to each spell I leave 6 slots open, one for every round. Each round I mark the spells that I cast as soon as I cast them. So if my rubric marine sorc #2 (aka the unit champion from the unit of rubrics that I have designated as unit #2) casts force, I check his box for this turn in the line with the force spell. Also, when I bless or maledict a unit, I put the card with the spell right next to the unit onto the battlefield. Finally, I have glass beads of different colors to designate buffs and abilities. So if a unit gets the Blessing of Tzeentch, I put a blue glass bead next to the unit. If the unit gets "Occular Guidance", I place a white glass bead next to the unit etc. This makes the psychic phase less chaotic and lets me keep track of my progress.

The lamination might be a good idea.
Though, with that many sorcerers, and possibly horrors spawnning horrors, a table might be a better idea.


As for skyhammer answers-nothing in specific, but the fun part is that you don't NEED anything specific.
Its amusingly not quite as useful against us. can't get pinned due fearless everywhere, rubrics can't voerwatch anyways so that effect is irrelevant, the dev's heavy weapons are not very efficient against us due to invuls and the assault marines don't pack enough punch to do serius harm in CC (the charge rubrics, the rubrics tank and the aspiring swings axe, they charge scarabs...oh boy that's a bad idea.)

Come your turn, after taking some (but not all that many) casualties, you'll bombard them with AP3 bolters and make quick work of them. possibly throw some treasons around beforhand so you can get your own round of grav shooting.

Just make sure there isn't an easy shooting angle to get to any of the important sorcerers, and you'll do fine.




On another note, I'm beginning to think the ability to take ALL in the tzeentch discipline is actually a really good thing.
Rolling a few times at it an you are practically assured an AP2 witchfire
Ahriman, practically garanteed to get either siphon or doombolt-or both. and he can make good use of them.
Also, many tzeentch powers means many treasons avilable scattered all over the board. that power is a gamechanger by itself, the mere fact it EXISTS everywhere is enough to shape the way the opponent behaves.

Overall, I rate the discipline as a whole:
P-worthless junk unfortunatly. use it to throw excess warp charges after casting your important spells.
1-another "throw excess on it" rather nice for scarabs though, they are unlikely to get hurt by the stab. (1 out of 12 to get wounded. that's not that bad), anything with high T and decent saves can also make use of it. chosen scarabs can use it whilly-nilly.
2-possibly the best power in the game. forget about anti-tank, this is a range 18 S8AP1 beam on just 1WC. beams are assured hits, and if you cant get 4-5, you are doing something wrong. this is as nasty as it gets. also, beams don't need LoS. they target a point, not a unit.
3-on any other army than tzeentch, this would be junk. but between horrors and 1ksons, the amount of spells you fling will make this easily out-generate it's costs. works best in grand coven, but any psyker with a high level can make it shine.
4-its...something? Ap2 poisoned 4+ flamer isn't bad at all, but it requires getting too close for comfort. still, nice to have as a deterrent.
5-Another Ap2 attack, wouldn't mind. focused witchfire is nice as you can completely break some combos by taking out a linchpin model, and with S6Ap2 D6 hits, this delivers. odd chance of ID and spawn generation is a nice touch (about 40% of the casting at BS4, more at higher BS due to more hits.)
6-gamechanger. insanely strong


So, given that you gotta roll at least once, and your get the primaris anyway, the question remain-do you keep rolling?
With 1 true dud, 2 "meh" powers and 3 really good ones, I'd say you do.
A level 3 sorcerer is almost assured to get at least one strong power, and at the very least has the two duds and two "meh" powers of the discipline. (that requires to be insanely unlucky though to get exactly the three powers you don't want. as its 1/20)



Overall, unless you are fishing for something specific you gotta get, or you need something that you can trade for prime for (like shrike for MC hunting, or warpshock against massed light infantry), rolling all Tzeentch might be worth your while.

I mean, can you name one discipline that doesn't contain powers that 1ksons find outright useless?
If you have to get some Tzeenthc powers. might as well go balls deep, and make sure you get the good powers. because some of them are freaking amazing.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Are there any ways besides the Tzeentch warlord trait of making difficult terrain areas? If so you could have a null zone of difficult terrain in your deployement to prevent the enemy from deep striking behind your lines and/or deep striking and charging.

Not sure how difficult terrain would prevent people from deepstriking there but we can cover the board in difficult and/or dangerous terrain.
The dimensional key is a 12 inch radius difficult/dangerous terrain aoe after activation. There is the warlord trait you mentioned.
Every other power in geomortis causes difficult and/or dangerous terrain. Pyromancy has one power that causes dangerous.
The purge detachment turns every barrage blast into dangerous trerrain, so spam dem renegade mortars.

And vs charging there is a relic from TSons and Word bearers. That said, if you're specifically looking for difficult terrain on turn 1 there's really only torturer of worlds from geomortis.
Mind you that covers a ginormous area with it's 18 inch radius. Plus it blocks run, turbo-boost and flat-outs so that's really all you'd need.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
Thanks MrHappyFace. It was only one game and the dice are not always favorable. Try a few more games before giving in.

4000 is a lot to keep track of especially for a new army.

The book keeping in psychic phase I am not looking forward to.

"What spell did he cast, what did he have, ooof forgot that was active, how many points do I have left, did this unit get a blessing, I forget" I may have to lay off the libations so my buddies do not get frustrated with me, lol.

I have a notebook with me during games. I write down the spells each sorc knows. Next to each spell I leave 6 slots open, one for every round. Each round I mark the spells that I cast as soon as I cast them. So if my rubric marine sorc #2 (aka the unit champion from the unit of rubrics that I have designated as unit #2) casts force, I check his box for this turn in the line with the force spell. Also, when I bless or maledict a unit, I put the card with the spell right next to the unit onto the battlefield. Finally, I have glass beads of different colors to designate buffs and abilities. So if a unit gets the Blessing of Tzeentch, I put a blue glass bead next to the unit. If the unit gets "Occular Guidance", I place a white glass bead next to the unit etc. This makes the psychic phase less chaotic and lets me keep track of my progress.

Another good idea.

 Roknar wrote:

Not sure how difficult terrain would prevent people from deepstriking there.

Deep strike can't land in difficult terrain and drop pods have to move to the closest place which isn't difficult terrain. If you could somehow get enough powers, traits, etc. you could theoretically force your opponants deep strike wherever you want to. If you're really lucky, and playing on a small board, you could potentially cover the whole board from strategically placed sorcerors on discs casting difficult terrain powers.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

Not sure how difficult terrain would prevent people from deepstriking there.

Deep strike can't land in difficult terrain and drop pods have to move to the closest place which isn't difficult terrain. If you could somehow get enough powers, traits, etc. you could theoretically force your opponants deep strike wherever you want to. If you're really lucky, and playing on a small board, you could potentially cover the whole board from strategically placed sorcerors on discs casting difficult terrain powers.

? Sure you can. It's just that difficult terrain is treated as dangerous so you risk taking casualties.

Don't drop pods have some kind of targeting system that forces them to move to the nearest space not in difficult/dangerous/impassible terrain?

That only moves them off impassable terrain (which is rather uncommon) and other models. It won't prevent deepstriking as they don't care much about having to roll a dangerous terrain test.

 Skerr wrote:
Tracking the psychic phase. Very complicated, especially with 50+ WC.

Ideally you'd have a whiteboard easel next to the table, where both players can clearly reference all information relating to the psychic phase. Separate the whiteboard into sections w/black electrical tape, identify discrete units w/permanent marker, and use dry-erase markers to track generated powers with WC cost, ranges and types. You should also track, by unit, the # of powers manifested in each turn. It's a bit of prep work but it will make a very big difference.

You don't need photos, but you do need a way to clearly identify your units and match them to your tracking board. It would also be smart to include related permanent details like formation bonuses, spell familiar rerolls, and total WC generation. Track the total WC as units are created or removed, so you don't have to count 50+D6 WC in every player's psychic phase. Anyways, you get the idea.

 mrhappyface wrote:
No terminators, the DA were veterans with ss alongside psykers and inquisitors. There were two units of Gretchin, some scattered retenue, scouts and the rest were tanks and SH walkers.

Seems like there were 4 targeting issues to solve. Incidentally, Treason does not affect non-vehicle units.

1) Gretchin. You can't really hurt them, and they close off your movement towards more important targets.
2) DA Veterans + ICs. They're great targets for your shooting phase, but not with a 3++.
3) AV14 without Invul saves, hiding in the backfield.
4) 12HP Stompas with a 4++. This is the most durable target on the board.

Possible solutions :

1) --> Enfeeble and Tzeentch's Firestorm could probably clean up Gretchin blobs without much trouble. At S2 you're already wounding on 3's.
2) --> Need to remove the 3++. Either Death Hex or just work around the Storm Shields.
3) --> Magnus can solo the entire backfield from the air. Coruscating Beam can buy some time.
4) --> Death Hex, D-Weapons, Haywires, Doombolt, etc.

Some fast assault to frighten bubblewrap might be good. Spawn or Tzaangors. Also, is it feasible to leave the Stompa for last? You can hijack its weaponry with Heretech if necessary, even if Treason is not an option.

I had the though about using MAgnus at is best, you should try to get a power with another sorcerer to ignore cower like divination or geomortis and you would be fine against DA and jink et would just blast anything to dead with spells :p