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 mrhappyface wrote:
I would aay that killing the whole unit still causes blue horrors to appear, i.e. the rule that states a failed saving throw causes the model to lose a wound and therefore be removed, would allow blue horrors to be spawned.

That is what I was thinking too. It also says "immediately", which means that if you can kill an entire unit of Pinks, the Blues are created before the phase ends, so it may be possible to kill all Pinks, Blues and Brimstones in a single phase *IF* you still have shooting left

For example, you are shooting at 1 unit of 11 Pinks. Lets use Scatterbikes as that is the most likely option to have enough shots.
Scatterbike unit A shoots and Kills all 11 Pinks (unlikely with only 12 shots, but let's roll with it). 22 Blues are immediately placed within 6" of the last horror removed (presumably the farthest from the Scatter bikes)
Scatterbike units B,C & D, then kill all 22 Blues. 22 Brimstone Horror bases are now created (which BTW is only 1 WC). The rest of the Eldar army is free to shoot/assault or ignore those Horrors unit next turn.

So it is "possible" to kill all the Horrors made from the initial 99pt investment in a single turn (rather than the 3 turns it "effectively" will take). But if it takes Eldar over 400pts to do it, that should send a clear message.


Edit: The "immediately" wording also implies that a unti that has already taken casualties in a prior turn will be much easier to dispatch. If only 3 Pinks are left from a previous turn, it will be quick easy to kill them, them kill the 6 Blues created, then the 6 Brimstoned created. That's only 9 total wounds (we can safely count the 2Ws for each Brimstone as only 1W, unless you are Dark Eldar) that just about every weapon wounds on 2+

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Despite that, I just realised how great horrors are for full deep strike armies and are a great counter to alpha strike.

Ok so a summary of some cool tricks we have discussed:

-Deep striking Horrors into terrain both gives a cover save for later, and any failed dangerous terrain tests create a new unit that with an new power and its own WC (although presumably we would lose a WC if the originally horror unit started at 11 models)

-We can use the new unit of Blues to block assaults from the unit that shot at the Pinks.

-As new units can be place within 6", you can have your Pinks or Blue new LOS blocking terrain and place the new units behind said terrain. Kinda like Daemon "Flicker Jump"
This can also be used to advance unit toward objectives.

____________Some anti-Horror tactics:
-Killing the whole unit produces the new unit before the end of the phase, allowing you to continue damaging them

-Instability is not the Horrors friend. If you can get to Pinks and assault them, wiping them to a small number (not wiping them out) then the ensuing Instability check is sure to finish them off and prevent splitting.

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Another 'nice' idea is to use pink horrors instead of screamers for the bases of a daemon star with the jump unit artifact. You still have a 2++ re-rollable save with potential invis but now your base unit produces warp charge and produces new units when someone does get a shot through the invis and saves (add the loci of creation for even more horrors exploding from the star). You could also use the Herald formation for extra WC for each Herald you add into your "horrorstar".

 Galef wrote:
Ok so a summary of some cool tricks we have discussed:

-Deep striking Horrors into terrain both gives a cover save for later, and any failed dangerous terrain tests create a new unit that with an new power and its own WC (although presumably we would lose a WC if the originally horror unit started at 11 models)

-We can use the new unit of Blues to block assaults from the unit that shot at the Pinks.

-As new units can be place within 6", you can have your Pinks or Blue new LOS blocking terrain and place the new units behind said terrain. Kinda like Daemon "Flicker Jump"
This can also be used to advance unit toward objectives.

____________Some anti-Horror tactics:
-Killing the whole unit produces the new unit before the end of the phase, allowing you to continue damaging them

-Instability is not the Horrors friend. If you can get to Pinks and assault them, wiping them to a small number (not wiping them out) then the ensuing Instability check is sure to finish them off and prevent splitting.

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Why would you not want to wipe them out in combat? Wouldn't that count as losing the combat and thus still force a daemonic instability test?
Because if so, they would be pretty easy to deal with in melee. Which is likely where you would end up in when trying to get them off an objective to claim it for yourself.

 Roknar wrote:

Why would you not want to wipe them out in combat? Wouldn't that count as losing the combat and thus still force a daemonic instability test?
Because if so, they would be pretty easy to deal with in melee. Which is likely where you would end up in when trying to get them off an objective to claim it for yourself.

You want to wipe them with the Instability check, not will your actual attacks, as it reads as the only thing that prevents Splitting.
If you kill all 11 Pinks before they test, 22 Blues will pop up 6" from the last Pink removed.
If, however, you kill only 9-10, leaving the last 1-2 pinks to take an Instability check, and they fail that check by enough to kill the remaining Pinks, then 0 Blues are created.

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Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.

By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol

 Roknar wrote:
Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.

By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol

What??? You are saying exactly what I am. I am confused at your confusion
Except for the testing after killing them all. That doesn't happen. If you kill them all, not test is taken as the unit is now dead.

My point about not wiping them before they test is to ensure that they have a test to make. You are right, Split happens at the end of the phase, so if you kill them all, the original unit is not alive to test, therefore no Instability test is taken and Split can now occur. In fact it happens immediately once the last Horror dies and since it's a new unit and not part of the combat, it would not be subject to Instability.

You want to kill all but a few, forcing an Instability check on the survivors, which they should fail and then be removed. Split doesn't happen if Instability removes the unit.
Does that make sense now?

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What happens if instability restores the unit? Do dead horrors still generate splits?

 Galef wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Daemonic instability happens before the split comes into effect. So my understanding is that it can bring back the entire unit even after killing them all. Therefore even after killing them all, you would still test. Then in order to remove the unit entirely from instability, you would need to kill as many horrors as were present at the start of the fight (let's assume all). So killing them all would incur a greater penalty on the leadership test and give you a greater chance to remove them all.

By the time you check for split, the entire unit would have already been removed via instability and therefore not eligible to split. That was my first impression anyway, though I can't say I stand by it lol

What??? You are saying exactly what I am. I am confused at your confusion
Except for the testing after killing them all. That doesn't happen. If you kill them all, not test is taken as the unit is now dead.

My point about not wiping them before they test is to ensure that they have a test to make. You are right, Split happens at the end of the phase, so if you kill them all, the original unit is not alive to test, therefore no Instability test is taken and Split can now occur. In fact it happens immediately once the last Horror dies and since it's a new unit and not part of the combat, it would not be subject to Instability.

You want to kill all but a few, forcing an Instability check on the survivors, which they should fail and then be removed. Split doesn't happen if Instability removes the unit.
Does that make sense now?

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I read over the rules again and you're correct.
I thought instability could bring a completely dead unit back, which would allow you to test for instability regardless. But even then, split would kick in early due to the unit being completetly removed.
So the only way to get rid of them whithout splitting is, as you say, to kill all but a few. At least unless they release a faq that changes that to special rule rather than rule.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What happens if instability restores the unit? Do dead horrors still generate splits?

I believe since the rule says that 2 Blue Horrors are created for every SLAIN Pink horror, and double 1's on an Instability check makes them no longer slain, no splits occur

Would there be any merit in killing your own horrors? With the jump artifact you could cause dangerous terrain tests and with enough models should result in at least one casualty. Seeing as how you can choose what the best save is, you could choose their armour save to kill one for sure. And this would be before the psychic phase so you could immediately benefit from that warp charge. Alternatively, geomortis not only helps those ap3 bolters actually do something, but it allows you to cause wounds on your own models too. Rupture would cause 1 wound on a 2+ and you could choose the worst save again to kill a lone horror. Perhaps even a blue and a pink in order to get an extra WC. Worldwrithe would also allow you to test for dangerous terrain.
It would seem to more beneficial to have all three units out as soon as possible to benefit from all the warpcharges, plus your opponent now has three units to shoot as opposed to killing one unit over 3 turns.

And if you can choose the assault yourself, instability is also hugely beneficial if you can spawn horrors from killed horrors that return. Just go charge some weak sauce unit. Altough it doesn't look like there is an answer to that. It really depends on your interpretation or "common sense" as GW so eloquently put it...
I had the same problem when looking at the chaos achilles land raider and whether repairing lost hullpoints still counts them as lost( and restored) or never having lost any to begin with.

I don't think most opponents or TOs would let you pick a non-existent armour save for your horrors.

Right, you may only choose the best save available. Horrors have no armour save, so it isn't available to them to take.

But there is merit is assaulting a unit late game. Lets say you went first and your opponent is near an objective (but not quite on it yet). You could assault the unit and as long as you don't die but still take casualties, you pin the enemy away from the objective, while at the same time, creating a unit on top of the objective (if close enough)

Also if you had second turn and the game might end, and there is a weak enemy unit on an objective (like some Scatterbikes), you could charge them, hopefully pulling them off with their pile-in move, then any horrors created can split onto that objective.

It's a lot of "ifs, buts and coconuts", but something to keep in mind for objective grabbing.
Since new units are created within 6", each new unit provides amazing board control

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It could still work though, just won't be guaranteed to split your units. Malefic on the other hand simply removes models on sacrifice and possession. No idea how they handle that in tournaments, but technically they could cast both until they faq it. Assuming they are even aware that almost every psyker in the game gets access to daemonolgy by default. They keep listing it like that makes any difference.

Can daemons embark on transports? Because I just realized when a model that gets nommed by daemonic possession would also not create a horror. In order to embark you remove them from the table, then possession would kick in and at the end of the phase there is no unit to place a model next to, and they weren't removed as a whole either.

I'm really just spitballing ways to kill a horror or two in your turn in order to get all 3 units on the board and get all three warp charges. Your own movement phase would be the best place to do that in, since that way you'd get to use them immediatly.
Even if you're not going out of your way to kill them though, things like dangerous terrain might be something to consider.

"A Unit of Horrors embarks on a Possessed Transport, and the Transport eats one of the Horrors. What next?"

BURRP.

Do Pink Horrors retain access to Malefic Daemonology? I assume Blue and Brimstone Horrors won't. Even if they don't, I imagine they'll be still used for batteries instead.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Do Pink Horrors retain access to Malefic Daemonology? I assume Blue and Brimstone Horrors won't. Even if they don't, I imagine they'll be still used for batteries instead.

Unless specifically stated otherwise all of them have access to daemonology.

Not convinced that is true for releases after 7ed.
I would expect new releases to ge explicit
(And apparently other entries in the supplement are)

As the BRB specifically grants Daemonology to ALL psykers (except to Nids, Santic for Daemons and Malefic for GKS), unit entries must give SPECIFIC instructions that a psyker cannot use Daemonology, or an FAQ/Errata must do so.
The screen shots for the Blue & Brimstone horrors are in this thread and neither of them disallow Daemonology.

I, for one, would be happy if they could NOT take it since it leads to so much abuse, but as I have said before:

The absence of a rule on a datasheet that the BRB inherently grants does not disallow that rule.
Otherwise, Flesh hounds would not have Fleet (as all Beasts have) and Space Marine bikes would not have Relentless (as all Bikes have)
All Psykers have access to Daemonology unless otherwise stated. It needs to be stated

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The omission is a statement. Other psykers in 7th Edition books, including the very same book the Split Horrors are in, specify if a model has access to Daemonology.

Rules debates aside (unless you want to have Eldar summoning daemons again with -1 to warp charges), Horrors are going to be the go-to unit.

Most will likely take 2 units in a CAD, at which point it would be better to ignore them rather than try to whittle them down. Keeping your own obsec alive is the name of the game I think.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
The omission is a statement. Other psykers in 7th Edition books, including the very same book the Split Horrors are in, specify if a model has access to Daemonology.

Omission is absolutely NOT "stating otherwise". If it was, than every codex released in 6th ed would not have access to Daemonology.
Also see my example about Flesh Hound and Fleet. The Flesh Hound datasheet DOES NOT have Fleet, but they're unit type is granted it on the BRB. The Horrors datasheet does not have Daemonology, but being a Psyker grants it in the BRB.

You have to remember that it is not stated anywhere what edition a codex is made in. If I was brand new to 7th ed, all current codices are 7th ed, whether they were released prior to that or not.
You certainly have a good RAI argument that since other Psykers in the same book have Daemonology, then Horrors are meant to not have it, but the RAW are quite clear
I wish they didn't and I will probably avoid using it with my Pinks, but other players with less restraint are free to use it.

 Rypher wrote:

Most will likely take 2 units in a CAD, at which point it would be better to ignore them rather than try to whittle them down. Keeping your own obsec alive is the name of the game I think.

That might be a reason to kill those 2 units. Horrors that have been split are not ObSec, so if you kill the original 2 Pink units, no more Obsec. But then you have twice as many models to deal with, so it's a win-win for Daemons

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How about the issue that GW doesn't sell Brimestone Horror kits? Clearly if you are going this route for troops, then you'll need a lot but they are only available in the Silver Tower box @ 4 total models a pop... I can already see tons of proxy knock offs or an influx of re-casts from China unless there is some sort of new box that contains a reasonable amount of these models.

There's also a warp storm result that spawns10 brimstone. Gonna need so many!

Already trying out sculpting my own.

 Bach wrote:
How about the issue that GW doesn't sell Brimestone Horror kits? Clearly if you are going this route for troops, then you'll need a lot but they are only available in the Silver Tower box @ 4 total models a pop... I can already see tons of proxy knock offs or an influx of re-casts from China unless there is some sort of new box that contains a reasonable amount of these models.

I would say it's highly likely they will be a pre-order option in the coming few weeks

I just orders 24 Wood Elf Dryad Heads for $12. Gonna put 2 floating on flames each base. That will get me 12 Brimstone bases, so $1 per model isn't bad.
I'm gonna hold off on making more as I really hope GW makes a box with 10 Blues and 10 Brimstones soon

EDIT: I just realized something dumb about Blue Horrors. Their rule "Magic's offspring" says that a unit of 11-20 Blues generates 2WC instead of 1. Now a unit purchased can buy up to 20 models, but what about if a Pink Horror unit is near and gets split?
Can the unit go above 20 models? and if so than the unit only generate 1 WC, and it s no longer 11-20 models, it's 21+
Or why couldn't the rule have just said 11+ models or 15+

That's definitely something for the FAQs.

Another silly thought came to mind, and that's using Brimstone Horrors to hijack a Rhino or so as a cheap Predator-alternative. (Or to hijack a Renegades&Heretics Chimera...).

I'm kinda surprised no one's talking about Tzeentch Clown Car with the new horror rules (or maybe they did but I'm too tired to catch on). Oh, the humanity! I can see it now, over half the table covered in little pink, blue, and orange monsters...

Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.