Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:
Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.

Jesus christ! I didn't even think of that!

And then the blue horrors roll possession again and spawn another greater daemon and 20 brimstone's?

I'm not sure what they were thinking with this, they've over trebbled the survivability of an already good unit and increased the warp charge potential. Aside from fluff and modeling there's very little incentive to take the other lesser daemons now competitively. The points cost should have increased just to preserve a little internal balance in the daemon codex...

When you summon 10 horrors now, you're summoning around 50 models worth of annoyance units!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Right, as it stands, Horrors can take Daemonology, so imagine a unit of 10 Pinks getting Possession. They cast it and are removed, thus immediately producing 20 Blue Horrors AND the Greater Daemon they conjured.

Jesus christ! I didn't even think of that!

This is the reason why Horrors need to NOT have access to Daemonology. Hopefully the Pink Horror datasheet (which we haven't seen) has a rule that say Pink, Blue and Brimstones can only take Change and not Daemonology at all. AND increase the points cost of Pinks. But I doubt it

BRB Says all psykers have access to Daemonology. Unless their slate specifically says they DONT, then they do.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
BRB Says all psykers have access to Daemonology. Unless their slate specifically says they DONT, then they do.

Exactly. They could have a rule on the Pink's dataslate, but if not, they get it

I've calculated that horrors are ~7.5 times more durable than Magnus vs bolters point to point.

 koooaei wrote:
I've calculated that horrors are ~7.5 times more durable than Magnus vs bolters point to point.

Wait. are you saying that 72 Pink Horrors (~650pts) takes 7x the amount of bolter fire to kill than Magnus?
Which is basically saying that 10 Pink Horrors = Magnus in terms of durability.

You can also "beam" your own models.

Or get some 'Come to the apocalypse' Grey knights with cleansing flame.

The enemy is entering the battlefield and sees the grey knights fighting the horrors but with every wave of holy flames they're splitting up. STOP KILLING THEM BROTHER YOUR JUST MAKING MORE!!!!


EDIT: wait wait, I got a better one... If you're not allowed to take 'come to the apocalypse' then you could also get sum ork weirdboyz with grots that go for sanctic.

Lets get 10 horror units.

In the psychic phase you cast sanctuary + cleansing flame

With cleansing flame you got an average of 5 dead horrors in each unit. Thats 50 dead horrors and then you get 100 blue horrors. These blue horrors do a run move within the sanctuary bubble and have to do a dangerous terrain check. Then end the end of the shooting phase you get brimstone horrors. Then at the end of the turn you have to check for soul blaze wounds(cleansing flame) and those pink horrors make a few more blue horrors. Next turn sanctuary is still up so everybody can shuffle within the bubble for more dangerous terrain checks. what a mess....

Well one or two dead horrors is enough really. The point is to get extra warpcharges for whatever a pink horror costs, not to kill your own units lol.

Well an FAQ for Magnus is out and it clarified that Pink Horrors do not have Malefic anymore

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/03/wrath-of-magnus-faq/

 CrownAxe wrote:
Well an FAQ for Magnus is out and it clarified that Pink Horrors do not have Malefic anymore

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/03/wrath-of-magnus-faq/

I'm fine with this: we get split + 10pt reduction in exchange for malefic.

They're still pretty damn good and Heralds can still summon, so it isn't like summoning isn't a viable tactic anymore.

Do note though, as per the FAQany horror generated by splitting is NOT objsec, nor gains any other formation/detachment benefits.

So, the infinite horde is not NEARLY as bonkers as initially thought out to be.


They are still pretty good mind you, as pinks are a nightmare to take care of, brimes are cheap as hell charges and blues are in a sweetspot in between.

Not sure what horrors I'm going to field to power up my 1ksons actually. possibly the blues for a nice midground.

Not broken? One Pink Horror takes 15 Bolter shots to take down. A Necron Warrior in a Decurion takes only 12.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not broken? One Pink Horror takes 15 Bolter shots to take down. A Necron Warrior in a Decurion takes only 12.

At least they cannot Summon units anymore, nor can they be relied on to generate Cursed Earth, which may mean not getting that at all in some games.
I am impressed at how fast they got this FAQ out. Good job GW!

Yea that was extremely fast. Good job indeed. Although they forgot to make an errata that psykers don't have daemonology automatically, so everybody else still has it. This faq makes it clear to me that they they seem to have forgotten about that rule.
The faq clearly goes against the rules in the BRB. It's good that they "fixed" it , don't get me wrong, but they really should go the extra mile and make erratas for the various factions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not broken? One Pink Horror takes 15 Bolter shots to take down. A Necron Warrior in a Decurion takes only 12.

Can you show your maths for that please?

That's a bummer that Pinks lost it though it makes sense I suppose, I don't see much reason to run Pinks over Blues now though, as the 44 point difference between 11 Pink and 11 Blues is almost enough to grab another Herald.

Ah well.

Anyone else notice that only PINK horrors cannot use Malefic? So Blues & Brimstones still can?

Not how I am gonna play it, but seriously, why can't GW think the whole situation through and answer accordingly?
For example:
"Q: Do the new Pink Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."

-----Could have easily been this:
"Q: Do the new Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."

-----Or even just remove the word "Pink" entirely:
"Q: Do the new Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."

-

Just stop.

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else notice that only PINK horrors cannot use Malefic? So Blues & Brimstones still can?

Not how I am gonna play it, but seriously, why can't GW think the whole situation through and answer accordingly?
For example:
"Q: Do the new Pink Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."

Could have easily been this:
"Q: Do the new Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors get Malefic psychic powers?
A: No, they do not get Daemonology (Malefic) Powers."

-

They probably didn't think they needed to since only pink horrors have an errata specifying that they do get malefic. Newer unit entries like Eldar's psykers listing only Sanctic daemonology makes it clear that we're supposed to follow post-7ed unit entries to the word inspite of the BRB rules for daemonology (codex>rulebook and such). And now that the only reason Pink Horrors could technically still have malefic is gone I doubt anyone is going to let blue and brimstone horrors still do it (like no one lets Eldar still get malefic)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Just stop.

I am not implying that I would use Malefic with Blues or Brimstones, just that the option is still there, despite the overwhelming RAI for them not to have it.
It would have been so easy for the FAQ to have left no doubt using either example I provided, but they didn't, so you can expect someone to abuse it

Even without using Malefic, I am very happy with Horrors now. I will still be using Pinks, but only 1 unit of 11 to start with instead of 2 units.

@ Crownaxe: again this isn't a Codex > BRB issue as the BRB gives permission and the Codex does not actually revoke that permission. The FAQ now does, but specifically for Pinks, but should have been for all (as I will be playing it). But if another player claimed to use Malefic for his Blues, I could not in good conscience find a legit RAW argument against it. Plenty of RAI evidence, but not RAW.
If you want to claim that the asbsence of a rule/USR in a codex actually denies that rule given in the BRB, then FleshHounds do not have Fleet.

-

Hence why I said they don't seem to realize that everybody getting malefic is a thing.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Just stop.

A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?

Split specifies you need models in order to spawn them so those horrors don't get spawned


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Just stop.

I am not implying that I would use Malefic with Blues or Brimstones, just that the option is still there, despite the overwhelming RAI for them not to have it.
It would have been so easy for the FAQ to have left no doubt using either example I provided, but they didn't, so you can expect someone to abuse it

Even without using Malefic, I am very happy with Horrors now. I will still be using Pinks, but only 1 unit of 11 to start with instead of 2 units.

@ Crownaxe: again this isn't a Codex > BRB issue as the BRB gives permission and the Codex does not actually revoke that permission. The FAQ now does, but specifically for Pinks, but should have been for all (as I will be playing it). But if another player claimed to use Malefic for his Blues, I could not in good conscience find a legit RAW argument against it. Plenty of RAI evidence, but not RAW.
If you want to claim that the asbsence of a rule/USR in a codex actually denies that rule given in the BRB, then FleshHounds do not have Fleet.

-

Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?

I would think that would be the obvious, nah the only answer. You cannot play models you don't have*


*proxies not with-standing. I suspect this will encourage stricter "counts-as" rules within gaming communities

 CrownAxe wrote:

Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.

But this actually is a different situation because
A) BRB gives permission to use Daemonology, but does not specific which (except for Daemons & GKs), so specifying Sanctic satisfies the BRBs permission given
B) It's a choice players make, but you can argue Eldar can still use Malefic

As Roknar mentioned, GW keeps forgetting that the BRB gives inherent access to ALL Psykers to take Daemonology. Codices/FAQs need to specifically revoke this access.
GW seems to think that just by not including it on new entries that we will just "get the jist" but this is flawed since there is not written rule about keeping track of what books came out in which order.

-

 Galef wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
A more pressing rules question, say you are required to place down some spawned horrors, but are out of models. Are those horrors 'destroyed'?

I would think that would be the obvious, nah the only answer. You cannot play models you don't have*


*proxies not with-standing. I suspect this will encourage stricter "counts-as" rules within gaming communities

 CrownAxe wrote:

Like I said, no one lets eldar still summon daemons and they have the same exact rules situation.

But this actually is a different situation because
A) BRB gives permission to use Daemonology, but does not specific which (except for Daemons & GKs), so specifying Sanctic satisfies the BRBs permission given
B) It's a choice players make, but you can argue Eldar can still use Malefic

-

A)The BRB does specify that you get both unless your daemons or grey knights
B) Yep, but just about unanimously no one is playing it that way. Blue/Brimstone Horrors are most defintely going to get the same treatment from players.

If no one is going to let them play with malefic powers, there is not point to keep arguing for it.

My concern is, in a kill point game, a player could "not unpack" the spare horrors. And gain an unfair advantage from selective model owning.
Not likely to be a big issue sure.

Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
My concern is, in a kill point game, a player could "not unpack" the spare horrors. And gain an unfair advantage from selective model owning.
Not likely to be a big issue sure.

Meh.

More often than not...

I can see people trying to squeeze more points out of CADs by going to Brimmies as obj sec troops in cover and cheap WC batteries. For 70pts (right?) you can have 2 10xBrimmies, hiding in cover near an obj. The points saved could be used to maximize beatsticks in daemon list.