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The Space Wolves and the Minotaurs are both pretty rebellious chapters in their own ways, they're fierce and often times ruthless. If these two got into a fight, who's coming out on top?

I don't really get how you could qualify the Minotaurs as "rebellious" as they are described as the High Lords of Terra's attack dogs/dedicated SM hunters. They are much closer to 30K Vlka Fenryka than they are to 40k SW, the Imperial executionners.

In terms of fighting each other, I guess it would depend on the situation, but a close call anyway. The SW have a huge fleet and military assets in addition of being non-codex compliant, but I can't remember if the Minotaurs might be more than 1000 battle-brothers strong.

Well... considering what's happening over at Fenris... I'd give it to the Minotaurs for now.

If Leman Russ reapears charging in wolf time style with the 13th and bro fists Bjorn...

Its wolf all day.

Also there are the lost companies I believe a few broke from space wolves but not sure if any exist.

well, is this after curse of the wulfen, or before.

If it is before then the Space Wolves completely outnumber the Minotaurs, and would, most likely win.

However, if it post curse of the wulfen, then it is unsure as we don't know the state of the wolves.

To me it seems quite obvious that the thread refers to pre-wulfen, as it's the period with the most detailed accounts of the SW forces. There's not point in debating if a force which we don't know many things about could match another foe/

Then I think the Space Wolves would win.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
The Space Wolves and the Minotaurs are both pretty rebellious chapters in their own ways, they're fierce and often times ruthless. If these two got into a fight, who's coming out on top?

Assuming you aren't talking about a fight during the current SW kerfuffle:

The Minotaurs are a basically Codex-compliant Chapter. That means that they have around 1000 Marines and supplemental staff and vehicles.

The Space Wolves are profoundly non-compliant to the Codex. There are Thirteen Great Companies, each roughly equal in size to a Codex Chapter, PLUS any Great Companies that have gone rogue (no longer submitting to the Great Wolf--but still serving the Emperor and Russ), PLUS the Thirteen Company.

If they all show up to a fight, the Minotaurs lose hard.

Uh...Do you have a source for the great companies each being 1k marines strong? Last I heard they were muchhhh closer to the size of a codex company (100 strong).

Let's not argue about Chapter size. Even if there's only a squad of Space Wolves they'll beat the whole Minotaur Chapter. After the fight there's nothing left of the Minotaur naval assets, they have no operational tanks, 9 out of 10 marines have been killed and their recruiting planet captured. The battered survivors are graciously offered a chance to surrender, refusal resulting in complete annihilation.

Da Butcha wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
The Space Wolves and the Minotaurs are both pretty rebellious chapters in their own ways, they're fierce and often times ruthless. If these two got into a fight, who's coming out on top?

Assuming you aren't talking about a fight during the current SW kerfuffle:

The Minotaurs are a basically Codex-compliant Chapter. That means that they have around 1000 Marines and supplemental staff and vehicles.

The Space Wolves are profoundly non-compliant to the Codex. There are Thirteen Great Companies, each roughly equal in size to a Codex Chapter, PLUS any Great Companies that have gone rogue (no longer submitting to the Great Wolf--but still serving the Emperor and Russ), PLUS the Thirteen Company.

If they all show up to a fight, the Minotaurs lose hard.

Space Wolves have been hard pressed for numbers for a long time. People take the fact that they don't adhere to the codex astartes as proof that they have big numbers and that's just not true, firstly Russ did not reject the codex to keep large forces, the Wolves were already a decimated force, he rejected it because he thought it tactically bad and restrictive to the Wolves way of doing things. The Space Wolves have taken some serius losses over the years. At the time of the Ragnar series a Great Company had the capacity to welcome a thousand marines but most of them sat at around two or three hundred and there were only twelve active because the 13th disappeared into the warp during the Horus Heresy and hadn't been replaced. Just recently the Wulfen came back but shortly after their return the Space Wolves saw some massive combat and again took some heavy losses.

Champions, Firehowlers and Deathwolves all took some serious beatings in the Warzone Fenris part II.

Space wolves because they make GW more money.

Realistically, if the rumors were true (alternate reality realistically) the Minotors because they supposedly have some sort of relationship with the high lords of Terra so they likely could get unlimited support If they went to war. With that support Russ boys would eventually fall. That is if the 12 wanted the Wolves gone.

How much backing do the Minotaurs have from Terra? Where is the battle going to be? If the high lords of Terra were fully supporting the Minotaurs, and it was on the Minotaur homeworld (can't remember what it's called) then the SW might not be able to win what would turn into a war of attrition.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Space Wolves have been hard pressed for numbers for a long time. People take the fact that they don't adhere to the codex astartes as proof that they have big numbers and that's just not true, firstly Russ did not reject the codex to keep large forces, the Wolves were already a decimated force, he rejected it because he thought it tactically bad and restrictive to the Wolves way of doing things. The Space Wolves have taken some serius losses over the years. At the time of the Ragnar series a Great Company had the capacity to welcome a thousand marines but most of them sat at around two or three hundred and there were only twelve active because the 13th disappeared into the warp during the Horus Heresy and hadn't been replaced. Just recently the Wulfen came back but shortly after their return the Space Wolves saw some massive combat and again took some heavy losses.

Champions, Firehowlers and Deathwolves all took some serious beatings in the Warzone Fenris part II.

Well, I assumed that he wasn't talking about the Space Wolves fighting the Minotaurs during a military action that has already been described, in detail, and doesn't mention the Minotaurs at all. Since we don't know the disposition of the Space Wolves after that point, there's no way someone could reasonably answer it for that period. If we can pick any particular point in the Space Wolves' history and compare it to any particular point in the Minotaurs' history, then we can get a huge array of potential answers which are all basically meaningless. Would the Minotaurs beat the Wolves if they attacked in full strength in the middle of the battles at Fenris? Would the Wolves win if they attacked with full Legion strength immediately after the Minotaurs had suffered their most devastating defeat?

Without more specificity from the questioner, I'm assuming that he's asking about a confrontation between a relatively 'average' sized Minotaurs chapter (not suffering particularly from attrition, nor immediately after founding before any losses) vs. the Space Wolves in a similar condition (not particularly depleted, nor bursting at the seams). Even if all 12 active companies had only 200 marines (which is well below what they could), that would still be substantially larger than a Codex chapter.

That's over twice the size of a Codex chapter, and that's excluding all the Great Companies which have decided to break with the Great Wolf. Even if all the Great Companies are at 100 marines, it's still bigger than a Codex chapter. Of course, the Great Companies do take battle losses, but so do Codex chapters, so NEITHER of them is going always be at full strength.

I don't know what 'big numbers' means specifically, but when one Chapter adheres to a doctrine of trying to keep somewhere around 10 Companies of 100 Marines, and another Chapter tries to maintain 12 Companies of several hundred marines each, the second is definitely going to be bigger than the first, all things being equal.

Maybe he meant who would win between two equally sized and equipped Chapters, one being the Minotaurs and the other being the Wolves, but then I'm not sure why he mentioned the 'rebelliousness' of the Wolves, since one of the significant points of their 'rebelliousness' is their disinclination to follow the Codex, and that directly pertains to their numbers.

Fluff-wise? Minotaurs specialize in killing other Space Marines, and in a even fight (Say, 100 guys vs 100 guys,) they'd probably come out on top. If it weren't an even fight, though, the Minotaurs would definitely win: Space Wolves generally keep their forces split up, at least a little bit, with various Great Companies off fighting in different battles at different places, but the Minotaurs always fight as a single company, meaning that they'll have the numbers advantage despite having fewer total members: All of their guys are in the same place.


However, tabletop-wise? Minotaurs have crappy chapter tactics, and the only real advantage they get is that they can charge a little bit more quickly. Meanwhile, Space Wolves specialize in counter-attacking, so... Space Wolves easily come out on top there.

Da Butcha wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Space Wolves have been hard pressed for numbers for a long time. People take the fact that they don't adhere to the codex astartes as proof that they have big numbers and that's just not true, firstly Russ did not reject the codex to keep large forces, the Wolves were already a decimated force, he rejected it because he thought it tactically bad and restrictive to the Wolves way of doing things. The Space Wolves have taken some serius losses over the years. At the time of the Ragnar series a Great Company had the capacity to welcome a thousand marines but most of them sat at around two or three hundred and there were only twelve active because the 13th disappeared into the warp during the Horus Heresy and hadn't been replaced. Just recently the Wulfen came back but shortly after their return the Space Wolves saw some massive combat and again took some heavy losses.

Champions, Firehowlers and Deathwolves all took some serious beatings in the Warzone Fenris part II.

Well, I assumed that he wasn't talking about the Space Wolves fighting the Minotaurs during a military action that has already been described, in detail, and doesn't mention the Minotaurs at all. Since we don't know the disposition of the Space Wolves after that point, there's no way someone could reasonably answer it for that period. If we can pick any particular point in the Space Wolves' history and compare it to any particular point in the Minotaurs' history, then we can get a huge array of potential answers which are all basically meaningless. Would the Minotaurs beat the Wolves if they attacked in full strength in the middle of the battles at Fenris? Would the Wolves win if they attacked with full Legion strength immediately after the Minotaurs had suffered their most devastating defeat?

Without more specificity from the questioner, I'm assuming that he's asking about a confrontation between a relatively 'average' sized Minotaurs chapter (not suffering particularly from attrition, nor immediately after founding before any losses) vs. the Space Wolves in a similar condition (not particularly depleted, nor bursting at the seams). Even if all 12 active companies had only 200 marines (which is well below what they could), that would still be substantially larger than a Codex chapter.

That's over twice the size of a Codex chapter, and that's excluding all the Great Companies which have decided to break with the Great Wolf. Even if all the Great Companies are at 100 marines, it's still bigger than a Codex chapter. Of course, the Great Companies do take battle losses, but so do Codex chapters, so NEITHER of them is going always be at full strength.

I don't know what 'big numbers' means specifically, but when one Chapter adheres to a doctrine of trying to keep somewhere around 10 Companies of 100 Marines, and another Chapter tries to maintain 12 Companies of several hundred marines each, the second is definitely going to be bigger than the first, all things being equal.

Maybe he meant who would win between two equally sized and equipped Chapters, one being the Minotaurs and the other being the Wolves, but then I'm not sure why he mentioned the 'rebelliousness' of the Wolves, since one of the significant points of their 'rebelliousness' is their disinclination to follow the Codex, and that directly pertains to their numbers.

I was replying to a post just ahead of mine, not the thread starter.
Space Wolves battle losses are on a whole different level to most Marine armies, the Wolves rarely pick fights that they'll win easily, they either respond to distress signals or go looking for the worst trouble they can find.
Space Wolves rebelliousness is the same type as the Minotaurs. By that I mean a Space Wolf Great Company leader will quite confidently tell a Chapter Master from another Chapter that his leadership is a joke.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Fluff-wise? Minotaurs specialize in killing other Space Marines, and in a even fight (Say, 100 guys vs 100 guys,) they'd probably come out on top. If it weren't an even fight, though, the Minotaurs would definitely win: Space Wolves generally keep their forces split up, at least a little bit, with various Great Companies off fighting in different battles at different places, but the Minotaurs always fight as a single company, meaning that they'll have the numbers advantage despite having fewer total members: All of their guys are in the same place.


However, tabletop-wise? Minotaurs have crappy chapter tactics, and the only real advantage they get is that they can charge a little bit more quickly. Meanwhile, Space Wolves specialize in counter-attacking, so... Space Wolves easily come out on top there.

I'm sure you meant chapter. They always fight as a full chapter

Also on the tabletop Asterion Moloc (Minotaur chapter master) grants PE (SM) to all Minotaurs which is much better than counterattack. Being a codex chapter they also get the grav crutch.

 MarsNZ wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Fluff-wise? Minotaurs specialize in killing other Space Marines, and in a even fight (Say, 100 guys vs 100 guys,) they'd probably come out on top. If it weren't an even fight, though, the Minotaurs would definitely win: Space Wolves generally keep their forces split up, at least a little bit, with various Great Companies off fighting in different battles at different places, but the Minotaurs always fight as a single company, meaning that they'll have the numbers advantage despite having fewer total members: All of their guys are in the same place.


However, tabletop-wise? Minotaurs have crappy chapter tactics, and the only real advantage they get is that they can charge a little bit more quickly. Meanwhile, Space Wolves specialize in counter-attacking, so... Space Wolves easily come out on top there.

I'm sure you meant chapter. They always fight as a full chapter

Also on the tabletop Asterion Moloc (Minotaur chapter master) grants PE (SM) to all Minotaurs which is much better than counterattack. Being a codex chapter they also get the grav crutch.

Counter attack is possibly the single worst Chapter Tactic for the Space Wolves, only thing equally as bad would be a boost to Overwatch, there's maybe three armies that will happily charge the Wolves.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Fluff-wise? Minotaurs specialize in killing other Space Marines, and in a even fight (Say, 100 guys vs 100 guys,) they'd probably come out on top. If it weren't an even fight, though, the Minotaurs would definitely win: Space Wolves generally keep their forces split up, at least a little bit, with various Great Companies off fighting in different battles at different places, but the Minotaurs always fight as a single company, meaning that they'll have the numbers advantage despite having fewer total members: All of their guys are in the same place.


However, tabletop-wise? Minotaurs have crappy chapter tactics, and the only real advantage they get is that they can charge a little bit more quickly. Meanwhile, Space Wolves specialize in counter-attacking, so... Space Wolves easily come out on top there.

I'm sure you meant chapter. They always fight as a full chapter

Also on the tabletop Asterion Moloc (Minotaur chapter master) grants PE (SM) to all Minotaurs which is much better than counterattack. Being a codex chapter they also get the grav crutch.

Counter attack is possibly the single worst Chapter Tactic for the Space Wolves, only thing equally as bad would be a boost to Overwatch, there's maybe three armies that will happily charge the Wolves.

How do you mean? Bad fluff-wise, or bad rules-wise? Because I play Space Wolves, and I like Counter-Attack. Is it as good as the FNP granted by Iron Hands, or the Skilled Rider granted by White Scars? No, probably not, but it's helped me out a bunch of times when I would have been totally overrun in combat and those extra 5-10 attacks really helped me push back.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Fluff-wise? Minotaurs specialize in killing other Space Marines, and in a even fight (Say, 100 guys vs 100 guys,) they'd probably come out on top. If it weren't an even fight, though, the Minotaurs would definitely win: Space Wolves generally keep their forces split up, at least a little bit, with various Great Companies off fighting in different battles at different places, but the Minotaurs always fight as a single company, meaning that they'll have the numbers advantage despite having fewer total members: All of their guys are in the same place.


However, tabletop-wise? Minotaurs have crappy chapter tactics, and the only real advantage they get is that they can charge a little bit more quickly. Meanwhile, Space Wolves specialize in counter-attacking, so... Space Wolves easily come out on top there.

I'm sure you meant chapter. They always fight as a full chapter

Also on the tabletop Asterion Moloc (Minotaur chapter master) grants PE (SM) to all Minotaurs which is much better than counterattack. Being a codex chapter they also get the grav crutch.

Counter attack is possibly the single worst Chapter Tactic for the Space Wolves, only thing equally as bad would be a boost to Overwatch, there's maybe three armies that will happily charge the Wolves.

How do you mean? Bad fluff-wise, or bad rules-wise? Because I play Space Wolves, and I like Counter-Attack. Is it as good as the FNP granted by Iron Hands, or the Skilled Rider granted by White Scars? No, probably not, but it's helped me out a bunch of times when I would have been totally overrun in combat and those extra 5-10 attacks really helped me push back.

Both.
The Wolves are an offensive army in the fluff and on the Tabletop. Same goes for Counter-Charge, I love the idea but like Counter Attack it never sees use because nobody charges the Wolves.